Colour matching problem

[LotusFella]

Hi all, I have a problem with trying to colour match my Esprit.  It was repainted by the previous but one owner who can recall the paint code. The roof needed repainting because of scratches at the back where someone opened the boot with the roof up.  I tried to get my local (good) paint shop to colour match it by sending off petrol flap.  They came back with “a good match”. Maserati blue 496.  So the roof a couple of the rear arches were painted.  Initially it looked like a good match and indeed the arches are fine as there is a black rubber seal between the 2. However on the roof the difference is quite noticeable. argh!  They want to paint more of the boot and side to blow it in, but I’m not keen on that. Apparently it’s the “flop” looks different from different angles.

The problem is the main car colour has a slight purple tone to it which is only viewable in certain lights. So I’m at a loss as what to do?  It is not the blue B21 lotus colour as I bought a can of that to test.  If I can’t get a match I guess I may have to try and get a glass roof, but they studied money.  Maybe try a group buy and get some made up?

 

anyway any help much appreciated 

[jonwat]

Looks like Lotus azure blue to me, that definately looks purple in certain lights. 

http://www.2040-cars.com/Lotus/Esprit/1998-lotus-esprit-v8-twin-turbo-rare-azure-blue-well-maintained-with-low-miles-531679/

 

[LotusFella]

8 minutes ago, jonwat said:

Looks like Lotus azure blue to me, that definately looks purple in certain lights. 

http://www.2040-cars.com/Lotus/Esprit/1998-lotus-esprit-v8-twin-turbo-rare-azure-blue-well-maintained-with-low-miles-531679/

 

I think azure blue is b21 which is what I thought but there was a definite difference when I bought a cane to test.

[Chillidoggy]

B21 is Lotus Racing Green metallic. That’s the colour of my car.

B20 is Azure Blue Metallic.

[Barrykearley]

Looks azure blue @LotusFella - pop the front up and look at the vin sticker - that will tell you all you need to know.

out of a rattle can it’s a poor match. Get base, thinners and lacquer mixed from a specialist paint company - you will find it a much better match for sure.

[LotusFella]

23 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

Looks azure blue @LotusFella - pop the front up and look at the vin sticker - that will tell you all you need to know.

out of a rattle can it’s a poor match. Get base, thinners and lacquer mixed from a specialist paint company - you will find it a much better match for sure.

Original colour was nautilus blue so a greenie blue colour.  I know it’s definitely been painted another colour.

1 hour ago, Chillidoggy said:

B21 is Lotus Racing Green metallic. That’s the colour of my car.

B20 is Azure Blue Metallic.

Sorry yes b20. I saw an elan at the Lotus 70th which looked very similar

[Chillidoggy]

I think Nautilus Blue is a very dark blue, much darker than your photo, which looks like Azure to me.

Maybe @Royalcan help, his car is Azure, I think.

[CHANGES]

I think what Chris was trying to say was the previous owner had the car painted and he was not sure of paint code...  so finding a match was a lottery.. 

3 hours ago, LotusFella said:

Hi all, I have a problem with trying to colour match my Esprit.  It was repainted by the previous but one owner who can recall the paint code. The roof needed repainting because of scratches at the back where someone opened the boot with the roof up.  I tried to get my local (good) paint shop to colour match it by sending off petrol flap.  They came back with “a good match”. Maserati blue 496.  So the roof a couple of the rear arches were painted.  Initially it looked like a good match and indeed the arches are fine as there is a black rubber seal between the 2. However on the roof the difference is quite noticeable. argh!  They want to paint more of the boot and side to blow it in, but I’m not keen on that. Apparently it’s the “flop” looks different from different angles.

Chris ,

When I get Classics in like this we need to asses so many factors .. Finding a colour that matches as you have with the Masserati 496 is very hit and miss..    Expecting an edge to edge match in those circumstances is very optimistic..   

It may be that it is the Azure blue or the original as per code that has bee previously applied , but the process used or the undercoat applied has influenced the shading...   This is very common which is why we blend out even when the colour is close..   The flop you refer to will not apply on two stage metallic its just an excuse .. What will apply is the paint process and whether or not the base is drop coated or wet coated and ratio thinned.  All of these can effect shading..   Another influence can be paint manufacturer , the same colour from say, Pro Spray will be different to Octoral or Sickens. etc.. 

If they are a pro body shop I would of expected them to get closer than that ... I would of test sprayed and tinted till it was as close as possible..    Point of note,  these  shade of blues are normally painted over Black otherwise they are too bright.. 

I could go on and on , saying how it should and could be done , but your body shop should have done that before starting the job..   It is not difficult to do this correctly you just need the right people .. when paying good money out you should expect good work back.......     If I can be of any further help PM me..   

[Royal]

Hi Chris. As Ian says, B20. Azure Blue is the colour of my car.

To add, it can look a purple hue in sunlight.

 

[lotuseaters]

They are 100% correct you will never get a perfect colour match with a metallic colour without blending it , let them blend it or you will never be happy with it .

 

[CHANGES]

2 hours ago, lotuseaters said:

They are 100% correct you will never get a perfect colour match with a metallic colour without blending it , let them blend it or you will never be happy with it .

 

Yes but get them to repaint and tint it closer than that first,  To be fair what they have done match wise is a disgrace ...  If they are not up to the job take it elsewhere rather than risking it..  You can only blend so much and the worse the match the further the blend has to go..  And that what you have is bad,  trust me if you can see it in a photo then its bad . !!!   Also get away from the Masserati  496 , The metamerics won't be  right..    Tint from Lotus code using various paint manufacturers ... The body shop should know all this , If not move elsewhere , all paint jobs start with prep , without that they all fail... and getting a close match is prep..   I still can not understand why they put the clear coat on when the base was so far out..  One can only assume they did not check it during the process, just went on paint chip match...  If so that's Lazy.. Then why did they give it back to you like that , it should have gone back in and been re-done.... knowing this I would be asking what else they did how it was prepped and what product was used....  We see far to many Lotus's with peeling / micro blister paint  as a result of using cheap product and bad prep .  The correction work then costs twice or three time what it should of cost in the first place to correct it.       Sorry if i am ranting on , but this is my trade and i get frustrated when others do this sort of work and expect the customer to except it and pay for the privilege..            

[Barrykearley]

@CHANGES to be fair - it’s sounding to me like the paintshop were given the arches and roof panel off the car. As in the paintshop haven’t had the whole car and bits to paint ?.

[LotusFella]

13 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

@CHANGES to be fair - it’s sounding to me like the paintshop were given the arches and roof panel off the car. As in the paintshop haven’t had the whole car and bits to paint ?.

Well that is partly true.  I took the car in and they sent off the the fuel filler cover to get “colour matched”.  Then left the arches and the roof with them.  I’m not particularly upset with the painters. Just frustrated I couldn’t get the code from the previous owner

 

@Royal are you anywhere near Cambridge?  I would like to bring to car over sand compare?  Thx. 

[Royal]

Hi Chris. No, I'm in Hampshire, a little south of Basingstoke.

[Barrykearley]

56 minutes ago, LotusFella said:

Just frustrated I couldn’t get the code from the previous owner

One batch of B20 is very different from another and depends on the prep, undercoat, thinners and top coat as @CHANGES pointed out.

dont look at Norfolk mustard yellow cars - as any of them that have had paint are many different shades 😂

[Steve V8]

Hi Chris, this is B20 Azure blue, my painters were unhappy with their first attempt to match front end paint, so resprayed twice until happy with their work, that's the type of service you should expect.

[CHANGES]

8 hours ago, LotusFella said:

Well that is partly true.  I took the car in and they sent off the the fuel filler cover to get “colour matched”.  Then left the arches and the roof with them.  I’m not particularly upset with the painters. Just frustrated I couldn’t get the code from the previous owner

With respect to you and your painter , the code is only one part..  The fuel flap should have been enough for them to get it a lot closer than that..  It will never be spot on to the trained eye which is why we blend.   As @Steve V8 said if its not correct first time you do it over till its as close as possible, before it goes back to the customer..    Matching repainted cars is a bit of a black art..  and as @Barrykearley said Norfolk Mustard is one of the most tedious.  Along with some reds they can be metamerically challenging , these can match perfect in shop lights then miss-match in day light..  This is why some cars look a completely different colour in sodium street lights.    I really hope you can get this sorted @LotusFella without to much hassle..  

 

 

[Giniw]

On 22/04/2019 at 15:15, CHANGES said:

Point of note,  these  shade of blues are normally painted over Black otherwise they are too bright.. 

Azure blue is painted on a black base coat? Interesting, thanks!

[Steve V8]

36 minutes ago, Giniw said:

Azure blue is painted on a black base coat? Interesting, thanks!

If the stone chips along the bottom of my sills are anything to go by, the undercoat can clearly be seen and is white.

[Giniw]

Now you are pointing this, indeed it's the same on mine (something is white, not sure what layer though, but I have never seen anything black).

[CHANGES]

6 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

If the stone chips along the bottom of my sills are anything to go by, the undercoat can clearly be seen and is white.

 

6 hours ago, Giniw said:

Now you are pointing this, indeed it's the same on mine (something is white, not sure what layer though, but I have never seen anything black).

 When you spray an undercoat colour it is part of the process.  The top and undercoat amalgamate during this process. When the paint chips off, both coats chip as one.  What you will see is the first none fully integrated substrate..  This could be a primer coat if not wet on wet painted or fully keyed during prep.. otherwise in the case of an Esprit the gel coat.    The other factors you need to consider is as stated before , different paint manufacture use different pigmentation or metamerics to achieve a given result.. Some recommend undercoat other do not. However i have found some that don't recommend an undercoat colour match better with one.  This is all down to years of experience and pre paint matching..  Any top body shop would do this before committing to an edge to edge match..  They would also advise edge to edge will never be perfect to the trained eye....   

If you want to get a better idea of what i am talking about , just look at the colour match of bumpers to body on newer cars.  Most of them don' t match..  Well I see it.. when i point it out to customers they only see it then not before , I find that weird but this is my trade.  Anyway what i am trying to say is both of these parts are painted by the same manufacturer , but in some cases in a different factory.  The same paint manufacture , the same process, the same undercoat, but still they don't all match..  Why .. could be a different paint batch , bit like matching wall paper..  or just painted by hand not robot,   or maybe the addition of flex agent .  So many variables..   But if the manufactures have this issue , you can see why body shops say blend on repairs now.  ..   Blending out is never an issue , how they blend out can be.. ..          

[pete]

Excuse ignorance but what exactly is blending

[andydclements]

Rather tan end the new paint at a hard line such as the end of a panel, the paint is sprayed onto the adjacent panels, but at an increasing lower coverage, so you transition from the old paint to new paint gradually.

[CHANGES]

Bending is an action where a colour coat is carried across into an adjacent panel and faded out without giving a hard edge..  You then apply clear coat over the repaired and blended panel .   Now this is where it gets interesting... There are two main ways of doing this.

1.... Is to prep the whole of the blending panel with fine WD papers , fade the colour as far as needed to get best blend then clear coat whole panel to fully seal to an edge... 

2.... Is to part prep the blending panel , fade the colour coat as short as possible , then apply clear coat just past the faded edge of the colour coat , then apply a blending clear coat across the edge of the clear coat into the blending panel fading out again.. 

Process 1... Requires  full prep and removal of parts from the  blended panel, to the same extent as the panel that was repaired next to it..  This involves a lot more time and cost.  Because of this a lot of body shops do not use this method. 

Process 2 ... This only requires partial prep of the panel and usually involves masking out area's and parts.  Only part of this panel will be painted leaving  initially a virtually invisible soft edge somewhere in the middle of the panel..  This process is similar to that used by the smart repairers who fade out adjacent to the repair regardless of an edge ...  The blending clear coat has high adhesive properties that allow it to stick to paint work that has no more preparation than spirit/panel wipe to remove wax's / silicons.   Any polishing of this finish after application is very light, preferably none. This is because the soft edge will start to expose itself and then the more you polish it the more obvious it becomes. 

The down side of process 2...  is it will eventually expose the soft edge, especially on cars polished a lot like our Esprit's .It is a process initially used by the trade to do a cheap repair to sell a car ..  It was never mean't to last.. As processes and materials improved so did the quality. The insurance companies started to adopt it to reduce costs and it became more widely used with the birth of the smart repairers .. With the introduction of water based paints it became more widely used as the water based lacquer coats were not totally clear..  As a result a very slight yellow ting could give a slight colour discrepancy between panels , even on a process 1 application  ...  On the course i attended with the introduction of water based paints, we were told the only way around that was to used a blending clear and fade out..     So It has a market place , but should always be seen as a partial paint , not a proper paint.

The only down side of process 1... is cost.. It is by far the best and in my opinion only way to repair paintwork properly.  To get around the lacquer yellow ting in water based clear coat , we use blending clear coat up to an edge.,  or we use 2k clear coat instead. 

It should also be noted that the slight mismatches i refer to are only slight.. As a result general retail customers never really notice .. As i do my main work for the trade and classic customers , I have to be very aware because they will see anything that is not spot on..

It should also be noted that slight mismatches always seem to get worse with time . . So if you don't want to pay for the job twice , have it done right..  ££££..          

         

[Barrykearley]

Can’t beat gaffer tape and a Halfords rattlecan @CHANGES 🎣