Exhaust without remap?

[Mattmahope]

Has anyone fitted a full exhaust system (eg KT, 2bular, Larini etc which is 70mm all the way through) to an Exige but without having a remap done at the same time?

Appreciate that a remap is best to get optimum power/efficiency but is it essential to fit the exhaust hardware?  I currently have a KT370 kit (ie carbon intake and remap) on my Sport 350 along with a 2bular track silencer, but I would like to fit the rest of the 2bular EPK (headers, downpipe, sports cat) without having to get a remap or a new ECU - at least for the time being.  I am worried that if I go ahead and get it fitted, then the engine management will throw a wobbly.

Thanks!

[W31SSN]

I doubt the ECU would complain too much, it's already been updated from stock.  The ECUs have a small amount of learning capability. Might be worth emailing Daniel at Komotec and asking his advice. 

[alias23]

@Bravo73 tagging you as I know you've been down this route in the past and may be able to add some thoughts...

My understanding is intake and headers on standard ECU would throw a wobbler, BUT, as Nathan says you've already got a small ECU tune applied by KT so it potentially could work - As in you could get away with it!

That said I cant understand why you couldn't request a suitable tune from KT, as you can purchase the cable and a tune according to their web site:

https://www.komo-tec.com/en/lotus-exige/mk3-toyota-v6350380/engine-management/546/komo-tec-obd-remap-cable-incl.-tune-file?c=553

Surely a request of a 410 ECU tune or similar would be sufficient? I cant see a huge difference between a 2bular or KT system that would warrant a complete start from scratch custom tune.... 

[Mattmahope]

For what it is worth, Jim swears blind that the EPK can be bolted on with no need for a remap, but all the garages I have spoken to so far (BoT, Hofmanns and H111) all day that a remap or new ECU is required.

[Kristof Thys]

I can't see any reason as to why this wouldn't work without an ECU remap.

DixieV6 on here is running a custom intake, larini manifolds, no cats etc. without any issue and without any ECU upgrade.  Ok, not a 70mm system, but I assure this wouldn't change anything.

It is not like the intake and exhaust on my car are standard... and again all this with a stock tune.  Instead of running 10:1 at WOT I'm now at a much more "interesting" 11:1.  Long term and short term fuel trims are spot on.

[Mattmahope]

Thanks @alias23 and @Kristof Thys! Would be very interested to hear thoughts of @dixie v6 and @Bravo73 please.

Appreciate the advice as usual.

[Mattmahope]

Have now spoken to Phil at Bell & Colville too.  He says no problem at all to fit the full 2bular exhaust system without any need to remap/change the ECU.  Only problem is he thinks it takes at least 8 hours and has quoted £750 plus VAT. Ouch!!

I was led to believe that it is more like a 4 hour job...?

[RedViper]

Hangar 111 must do these all the time so maybe worth giving them a call?

depending where you live Craig Moncrieff in Edinburgh have done a few Jim tells me. I have been umming and arring the same mod for about 2 years but funds always seem to be diverted into new house 😥

[Bravo73]

I'm slightly confused. You're asking about whether or not your car could handle a cold-air intake and a full exhaust without a remap... but your car has already had a remap!

I know that the OEM ECU can adjust fuelling to a degree (ISTR that it is +/- 15%) and it's generally recognised that this can account for either an intake or an exhaust. It would probably struggle with the increased flow of both so is likely to throw up an engine light.

However, your car has already got the KT ECU code installed. I've no idea if this will adjust the fuelling or not. Have you tried asking KT themselves?

[alias23]

To @Bravo73 point and the link I shared for the KT ECU cable and Tune. I think a call direct to KT may be worthwhile if you're having no luck in the UK, you already have the 370 kit already... its not like the headers/system are dramatically different and KT have tuned cars with 2bular systems in the past. 

Ref the labour cost for install, the four hours is what KT seem to be able to achieve but they're doing them everyday, so you will see other garages who aren't as well practised quote a higher price. That said £112.50/hour (inc VAT) to me seems like taking the mickey... plenty of other decent garages to seek an alternative cost. Generally I'd expect around the £50-70/hour mark. 

[Mattmahope]

3 hours ago, RedViper said:

Hangar 111 must do these all the time so maybe worth giving them a call?

depending where you live Craig Moncrieff in Edinburgh have done a few Jim tells me. I have been umming and arring the same mod for about 2 years but funds always seem to be diverted into new house 😥

H111 won't touch 2bular stuff

2 hours ago, Bravo73 said:

I'm slightly confused. You're asking about whether or not your car could handle a cold-air intake and a full exhaust without a remap... but your car has already had a remap!

I know that the OEM ECU can adjust fuelling to a degree (ISTR that it is +/- 15%) and it's generally recognised that this can account for either an intake or an exhaust. It would probably struggle with the increased flow of both so is likely to throw up an engine light.

However, your car has already got the KT ECU code installed. I've no idea if this will adjust the fuelling or not. Have you tried asking KT themselves?

My car has a remap just for the KT carbon air intake, which is already fitted.  The full 70mm exhaust is not yet fitted and I have not had a remap designed to account for intake plus exhaust.  Perhaps the answer is that a remap only for the intake is also sufficient to cope with an additional exhaust change as well.  I am hoping that is the case, and seems to be the advice I am generally getting from a number of sources now. 

[Mattmahope]

1 hour ago, alias23 said:

To @Bravo73 point and the link I shared for the KT ECU cable and Tune. I think a call direct to KT may be worthwhile if you're having no luck in the UK, you already have the 370 kit already... its not like the headers/system are dramatically different and KT have tuned cars with 2bular systems in the past. 

Ref the labour cost for install, the four hours is what KT seem to be able to achieve but they're doing them everyday, so you will see other garages who aren't as well practised quote a higher price. That said £112.50/hour (inc VAT) to me seems like taking the mickey... plenty of other decent garages to seek an alternative cost. Generally I'd expect around the £50-70/hour mark. 

I messaged KT and they said that they don't have a specific tune for intake plus exhaust only, but they are currently working on one to go with a new ""quiet" exhaust system apparently.

I am hoping that BoT will be able to do it in closer to 4 hours.  Their work is good and their rates are reasonable.  Unfortunately when I last spoke to them they said it needed an ECU remap!  I feel a bit like I am going round in circles!!

[RedViper]

😑

[Hangar 111]

8 minutes ago, Mattmahope said:

H111 won't touch 2bular stuff

Hi Matthew.

That's not strictly correct - we have installed 2bular parts for customers on several occasions.  We can't say whether you will get away without a remap and not cause MIL (given that you already have an EX370 map).  We know that to get the very best out of the whole setup, the aftermarket ECU like those we offer with custom mapping (which we do in-house) is giving good and safe results, and this allows any configuation of hardware fitted the car to be optimised.  If KT are saying they don't have a suitable map "off-the-shelf", then obviously that would be our response also as UK KT dealer.

Dave

 

[Maxi_z]

I had the exact same question as I bought a Komotec EX390 kit for my exige cup 380 with the manifolds pipe and sports cat and I fitted those parts but there were problems to get the ecu tune file from komotec so wante to know if I could use it like that or not.

Later Komotec told me that they could only supply the EX430 file for the exige 380 and that I should add the airbox too and I had to either drive there or send them the ecu.

When I asked if I could use the car to come there with the exhaust parts installed but no ecu tune they replied that it was ok to drive it normally but not really ok to use it for a long time at full throttle or racing driving on track.

They had no reason to suggest that as I already bought the ecu tune from them.

At the end I just sent them the ecu for the tune and they sent it back to me and you can feel the difference especially at mid range.

I had a local dyno run where before the kit the car only was around 343 bhp and now it s between 385 bhp and 396 bhp so the kit made a 40 bhp difference but of course it s not near 430 real bhp or at least not on that dyno.

Also the power curve is very good and the lambda good and a little rich.

I think the problem with komotec is that you don t know what tune is available from them or what they will be ok to sell you or not as probably they prefer to sell complete kits etc.

BTW I think that even if the oem ecu would maybe be ok with the parts it s still safer to have a specific map for it and it will make also a good difference in power and torque...

So I suggest you either get the next stage that komotec would sell that would probably be the EX430 and on a 350 you would have to change the pulley too or fit the parts you like and then find a good place to custom map your car.

 

[vd9]

1 hour ago, alias23 said:

£112.50/hour (inc VAT) to me seems like taking the mickey...

After being charged >£200 for brake pads change (labour only, I supplied my own brake pads) I've concluded that it is better to buy my own trolley jack and torque wrench to do this stuff myself... 👨‍🔧👨‍🔧👨‍🔧

[Mattmahope]

47 minutes ago, Hangar 111 said:

Hi Matthew.

That's not strictly correct - we have installed 2bular parts for customers on several occasions.  We can't say whether you will get away without a remap and not cause MIL (given that you already have an EX370 map).  We know that to get the very best out of the whole setup, the aftermarket ECU like those we offer with custom mapping (which we do in-house) is giving good and safe results, and this allows any configuation of hardware fitted the car to be optimised.  If KT are saying they don't have a suitable map "off-the-shelf", then obviously that would be our response also as UK KT dealer.

Dave

 

Apologies Dave, I did not mean to be misleading. And I certainly do not wish to get drawn into this debate at all!

Your advice is always spot on.