adding a chargecooler

[CBrownstead]

what benefits, horsepower etc . . .would i gain from just putting a chargecooler setup on an 88 turbo? I know the charge air will be more dense, but without the extra injectors, new ecu, ignition etc . . .what gains will i see?

[th4neuk]

I had a chargecooler on mine and with slightly bigger jets in the carbs and running 1 bar of boost it dyno'd at 289BHP. I could probably have sneaked a touch more boost and got 300 though tbh. I think my page is still on LEW. Also have a look at Glyn Harpers car and also Artie who posts on here if you want to see what can be done.

Cheers

Alan

[andydclements]

You may loose power, the air:fuel ratio will be off, so the engine will struggle to not pre-ignite. If you add a charge cooler you need to let the engine have the right amount of fuel, if it's ECU driven a certain amount of that adjustment can come from the self learning, but this does not help at full throttle when the vehicle goes into a fixed area of mapping, so when you put your foot down fully, wanting full power you'll end up with a lean mixture, pinking, loosing power and possibly causing engine damage.

You're best to re-map the ECU as a minimum, but really you'd need to convert to the full set-up the charge cooled system used.

Andy (doom-sayer extraordinaire)

[gixxer]

Yes, if you just add a functioning chargecooler to your stock engine it'll just go flat. Or it'll be so lean under power you'll burn a piston or valve. Probably blow a head gasket first- from detonation

Since the air is denser, you have to add fuel.

If you have the old Bosch system on your car you may try a add-on supplemental injector driver like a Greddy Rebic...

Or better yet yank, the Bosch system and put in the Delco MPFI system like the '89s up have. Potential BIG power gains. Lots of work 'tho. Don't know what you'd do about the later spark knock sensor mounted in the block...

[Artie]

Chris, this is a tricky one, you could add a chargecooler and it would cool the intake charge, however, as noted, you'd have to compensate for the additional air density and thus add fuel. You could pull the bosch system and put in the GM delco system but then you'd have one heck of a large job ahead of you. I updated my esprit turbo to S4s/S300 specs with the ecm, chargecooler etc but I was delco already so the ignition system wasn't needed in my case, it was already there. You could add an additional injector and a boost controller to add some boost with the chargecooler and allow you to tune a little with the additional items but I found this troublesome on my initial attempt at making the early delco model make more power. Contact John Welch at WC and see what his thoughts are on it.

Artie

[t70]

I think we've had this discussion before... but the cooler, denser air should require the same amount of fuel to my recollection. The reason you need to be stinking rich is to prevent detonation with the hot charge-air. Once you cool the air, you reduce the risk of detonation and require less fuel. I'm sure there's a physics/fluid dynamics expert on here than can confirm this. I have chargecooled my 88 with the bosch injection... I've had no issues that weren't there before the chargecooler entered the picture. (My bottom end bearings were shot and i had a broken piston ring or two.) All I can see with a chargecooler is -- SAFER... not more risky. That's the main reason I chargecooled mine... yes I can get a bit more power, but it was my deduction that the engine would be more reliable.

One last note... Another reason I recall it was safer is that because of the way the bosch system works by measuring the density/volume of the air in the first place... it will OVERFUEL for the colder air.... which isn't really a problem -- advance your timing a touch at idle (somewhere around 18-22 btdc) and you should be able to make use of that colder air.

[CBrownstead]

yes i also thought that the MAF . . which stands for MASS AIR FLOW sensor or something to that affect, reads the MASS of the air which changes with density. I think that most BOSCH systems run current through a wire in the air flow and read the heat which leaves the wire, which would require a certain mass of air, temperature is in this equation obviously. My concern was that the stock injectors could not supply the fuel that the bosch system was telling them to provide at boost and with a chargecooler . . . all interesting feedback. The reason I ask, is that I have found 2 chargecoolers, 1 from a toyota celica GT and one of these new barrel flow through types, that look promising. I was thinking of adding one, bosch water pump, radiator . . .etc . . .wanted to see what people have run into before I go down this road . . .thanks to everyone.

[trackmagic]

what benefits, horsepower etc . . .would i gain from just putting a chargecooler setup on an 88 turbo? I know the charge air will be more dense, but without the extra injectors, new ecu, ignition etc . . .what gains will i see?

Ever notice the better throttle response on driving your car on a cool winter day as opposed to a hot summer. Compressed air heats up and will increase likely hood of detonation, hence low boost pressure of non-intercooled Esprit.

I recently fitted a chargecooler to my 84 Esprit ( factory) and it was quite a bit of work. Plumbing and making a proper heat exchanger was a challenge. If you go to the G car page you will see the work done.

Read Corky Bell's book for some good tips.

Good luck,

Jeff

[Glyn Harper]

I didn't have any issues when I fitted one to my car when still using Carbs. It ran fine with standards jets.

To be honest, the carb setup seemed to run a bit rich anyway, so the chargecooler just helped.

As colder air is denser, it's only like driving your car on a really cold day.. you don't need any special tuning for that, do you.

An interesting point though, for Carb/Chargecooler users.. I had mine set (using an ECU that wasn't looking after the carbs at the time) to only switch the electric chargecooler pump on when the engine got above about 40 degrees.. I had to do this as when it was on all the time from cold, the car would run really rough on very cold days as the air was being cooled too much so the fuel couldn't atomise as well.

Just a thought if you are in a cold climate.. You don't have to fit an ECU to control the pump.. but a switch may be useful to turn it off when it's really cold, then turn it back on when the engine warms up.

[bosbon_be]

How about ignition advance? We carburated esprit owners don't have an intelligent electronic ignition advance device but have to deal with a mechanical one (advantage: it always works )

will this be the limiting factor of turbo pressure, power gain?

How did you, who already have proven it that it can be done, handle this?

Thanks,

Peter

[CBrownstead]

being that the car is an 88 I also need a metal pipe that I can adapt from the plenum to the chargecooler, a stock one would be nice, but cannot find them, and then connecting the chargecooler to the turbo is cake . . .

[t70]

Your car does not use a heat wire for a MAF. It uses a disc in a bowl... and as the airflow increases.. the disc is pushed down. As the disc moves down, the fuel distributor piston moves with it and increases the amount of fuel to the injectors. I can explain this in much greater detail if you like, but it's a fairly long explanation. As for you're problem of hooking up the chargecooler... perhaps these pictures will help:

I actually cut up my original intake pipe and adapted it to fit.

[CBrownstead]

i wondered if that would work . . .fabulous . . .and the bosch on my 914 works the same way with that float mechanism . . .but cutting the pipe cool idea. I was about ready to buy one stock . . .wondered if i could get it . . .

[Troy Halliday]

I have this whole job coming up on fishy's car.

We will be swapping his Twin 40's for 45's, installing an electric CC water pump, a S4 charge cool rad, the later HC inlet manifold and water pump, Crank Trigger Sensor, Knock Sensor, Lambda sensor, MAP sensor, ECU controlled ignition, coil packs HKS BOV, custom made plenum adapter, Boost controller, Ali header tank and a rolling road session.

I am very weary of running a CC from an ageing or come to think of it any distributor system. At least with the ECU ignition it can be set up to run with the correct ignition curve and with the other sensors completing the loop we will at least be able to avoid detonation. The ECU will also feature a soft and hard rev limiter.

I personally think this is the best way to go if fitting a CC to your system. Although does require a lot more work.

[t70]

I will only be doing this for a while I think, and after that I will be upgrading the whole ignition and fuel system to a stand-alone... For me, the idea of a chargecooler give a slight bit more power, and a lot better reliability. That's about it untill the rest of the upgrades get completed.... Though... I just had an idea... I can advance 1 degree at a time on my distributor and use a home-made knock sensor (a small microphone designed for deaf people that you hook up to the engine block and listen to whilst in the cab and running the engine). At the end of which, I can also check my plugs at the end of each run and see how they look.

[Glyn Harper]

Although I moved over to injection about 4 years ago, here's an old picture of my setup with carbs.

I just drilled into the plenum cross pipe and put a plumbing fitting in, then used a short length of rubber hose for the carb balancing pipe to connect.

Worked a treat!

[andydclements]

, a S4 charge cool rad,

How about one of those twin rads , assuming Fishy's hasn't got air con, use the air con & charge cooler rad, plumb both in like the Sport 300. that's what I'm doing shortly.

Rad was

[th4neuk]

This is the fitment on my old white car. I wqas fortunate to get a sport 300 inlet from Garry Kemp so I didn't have to chop my original intake up.

Cheers

Edited March 6, 2008 by th4neuk

[t70]

As for the Rad.... I used a 1991 ford econoline van rear heater core and mounted it up front behind the front lip.