V8 Liners Question

[CarlC]

Just a quick question about the v8 engine and the piston liners problem. Is it possible any of the S350 engines are effected by this ?

Also with the v8 engine 'typically' what sort of milage would you expect to get out of it before a rebuild would be required. IIRC it was looking like 23k from new from that pole that was done a few months ago. What about after this ?

[scoule]

Just a quick question about the v8 engine and the piston liners problem. Is it possible any of the S350 engines are effected by this ?

Also with the v8 engine 'typically'   what sort of milage would you expect to get out of it before a rebuild would be required.  IIRC it was looking like 23k from new from that pole that was done a few months ago. What about after this ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, any engine with a number lower than 30600 could be affected. There is muc more info about this on www.lotusespritworld.co.uk

[bobbak]

Yes, any engine with a number lower than 30600 could be affected. There is muc more info about this on www.lotusespritworld.co.uk

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SORRY TO BUT IN ON THIS BUT!!

when you say lower than 30600 i take it you refering to the last five digits of the engine number rather than the first five, for example my engine number is

LL91899090414 so I should be relativly safe on the liner front then?

regards bob

[Rob C]

Just a quick question about the v8 engine and the piston liners problem. Is it possible any of the S350 engines are effected by this ?

Also with the v8 engine 'typically'   what sort of milage would you expect to get out of it before a rebuild would be required.  IIRC it was looking like 23k from new from that pole that was done a few months ago. What about after this ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok Guys this is actually a Big Issue....and not what you think at all...The Problem is Glue Failure NOT Liners Or Pistons...and it never was.

The factory have changed to Glue I believe 3 times now...

It can effect any and all V8 Engines.. its all about Heat and wether the actual Engine gets to the point at which the Glue fails...when it does the Water then passes by the Liner into the Crank case IE the Sump and mixes with the Oil which in turn due to heat and the way the engine Eats it own CrankCase fumes the water is actaully burnt Off..hence no trace to see at all.

I will pen a seperate Update on Water Loss and what to DO !!!!!!!!

My Sport 350 was Re-Sealed at the factory in 2003...it failed with out much warning using 3/4 of a pint of water in 240 miles..

One thing though the year before at Goodwood I was doing between 135 and 145 mph each lap on the back straight in 4th..every Lap all day long..used one set of Portafield front pads in one day...not very good the AP stock ones are much better.

I would like to ADD I've been Building and Modifing Cars since around 1972 so have a little experience..Lotus V8's since 1989...be happy to help any member....lotsofbhp3506@ntlworld.com cheers Rob ps also AutoSpark

[scoule]

SORRY TO BUT IN ON THIS BUT!!

when you say lower than 30600 i take it you refering to the last five digits of the engine number rather than the first five, for example my engine number is

LL91899090414 so I should be relativly safe on the liner front then?

regards bob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Check out this link for more information .... yep, the 30600 is the last 5 digits of the engine number.

http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/ETechnic...r_Problems.html

I'm a little surprised by your engine number, is it definitely 90414? I'm sure Lotus didn't make nearly 60000 v8 engines after mid 2000 (engine 30600).

It sounds like most problems are caused by overheating causing the liner sealant to fail, so a well maintained cooling system should reduce chances of failure.

[Rob C]

Check out this link for more information .... yep, the 30600 is the last 5 digits of the engine number.

http://www.lotusespritworld.co.uk/ETechnic...r_Problems.html

I'm a little surprised by your engine number, is it definitely 90414?  I'm sure Lotus didn't make nearly 60000 v8 engines after mid 2000 (engine 30600).

It sounds like most problems are caused by overheating causing the liner sealant to fail, so a well maintained cooling system should reduce chances of failure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice One Steve glad your in here its very good..better than the Yahoo version and good for every Esprit owner Sport 350 to......

[CarlC]

Thanks for the info guys. It gives me the key points I was after to watch out for.

[Guest Chelsea Martyn]

SORRY TO BUT IN ON THIS BUT!!

when you say lower than 30600 i take it you refering to the last five digits of the engine number rather than the first five, for example my engine number is

LL91899090414 so I should be relativly safe on the liner front then?

regards bob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

THE FACTS

According to Lotus... the bit you seriously need to pay attention to in the enigine number is this highlighted bit...

It indicates '99' year '09' month. That's the year build, September 99.

The probelms were on manufacture with Loctite sealant until June 00. So you are as at risk as anyone with a pre June 2000 engine.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Chelsea Martyn

[Rob]

The probelms were on manufacture with Loctite sealant until June 00. So you are as at risk as anyone with a pre June 2000 engine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.. unless you have already HAD a rebuild with hylomar.

[CarlC]

.. unless you have already HAD a rebuild with hylomar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

if the engine hasnt had the liners gue fixed - before it went, what sort of cost is it to get this sorted ??

[Guest Chelsea Martyn]

if the engine hasnt had the liners gue fixed - before it went, what sort of cost is it to get this sorted ?? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have looked into this and can give you some factual prices.

JCT Brookland at Leeds can do the job for around

[scoule]

You are no better off are you? That's the thing, there is no way to tell if it will fail or not. The only fact that you can say is that the Hylomar Is a better sealant, and the fail ratios reduced dramatically

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, that was my justification to the Mrs to buy a newer car! "If I might have to spend 4k on a rebuild, I may as well spend it on a newer car with a later engine number" ...

I've lost count of how many other excuses I used to raise my budget!

[Rob]

Nick Whales did mine. Cost more than 4k but then i did replace more stuff.. no point stripping an engine down and NOT replacing shells/bearings. WOuld see no point in replacing pistons though unless they were damaged??

.. unless you were planning to run higher boost when putting in some of JAE's forged jobbies would be a very good idea

[CarlC]

You are no better off are you? That's the thing, there is no way to tell if it will fail or not. The only fact that you can say is that the Hylomar Is a better sealant, and the fail ratios reduced dramatically

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am better informed with all the excellent write ups you guys are putting in.

So its a lottery if the car hasnt had a rebuild or this problem addressed. But at least I know were I stand and the potential costs if this does occur. So at least if im looking to buy a V8 (hope shes not listening!!! ) I can factor this in to the purchase price/budget and potentially running costs.

I do appreciate the point though about only hearing about the problems. There may also be many other factors significant to the failure that dont get expressed like, if the cars had track day use or been abused at any time by PO. But at least some of the big unknows are now understood.

Really interesting topic though and some great input from you guys.

Sad thing is Im spending more time on the forum than I am with the car.

[mike_sekinger]

My 1999 V8 falls into the high risk category.

Although the engine is far from standard, so far there have been absolutely no incidents of coolant loss. The system was checked prior to the modifications and is routinely monitored.

From my understanding of the service bulletin relating to the use of the Hylomar sealant, the main reason for the change was to allow for removal of the cylinder heads without needing to re-seal the liners. There are clearly indications that the previous sealants were not up to the job, but there have also been failures since the introduction of the Hylomar sealant. I would imagine that a fair amount of the failures are simply due to sub-optimal application and assembly. It is after all, a totally manual procedure with a time critical window for torquing down the cylinder heads.

I think that it is very much a

Edited November 30, 2005 by mike_sekinger

[Paula&Marcus]

I have looked into this and can give you some factual prices.

JCT Brookland at Leeds can do the job for around

[Phil_B]

Another to add. I had a panic about this, because of the info on forums, turned out to be a leaky pressure cap (replaced cheaply) I am loosing no coolant now. I have not had the car from new, but had a full history, so I believe I am on the original sealant (99 V8-GT) and so far 43000 miles and used regularly (but not track days). Can't see why a previous owner would get this work done, and then not tell the new owner. Originally knew about this problem, but the conflicting advice then was "get a post 98 car". Only after I had bought it did the ante up to post mid 2000 (!)

It would indeed be interesting to get a cars done to not done ratio.

Phil B

[Rob C]

My 1999 V8 falls into the high risk category.

Although the engine is far from standard, so far there have been absolutely no incidents of coolant loss. The system was checked prior to the modifications and is routinely monitored.

From my understanding of the service bulletin relating to the use of the Hylomar sealant, the main reason for the change was to allow for removal of the cylinder heads without needing to re-seal the liners. There are clearly indications that the previous sealants were not up to the job, but there have also been failures since the introduction of the Hylomar sealant. I would imagine that a fair amount of the failures are simply due to sub-optimal application and assembly. It is after all, a totally manual procedure with a time critical window for torquing down the cylinder heads.

I think that it is very much a

[bobbak]

Could this be fate or just bad luck I now seem to be loosing water but with no evidence of any external water leaks but I am not loosing vast quantitys of it for example it took two weeks of every day driving from the last coolent level check doing aprox 500 miles in that time before the heater stopped blowing hot then the tempreture rose to above 100 degrees and I shut it down the coolent low level sensor in the expansion tank had packed in.

I got it home in stops and starts keeping the temp at just over 100 to 115 max let it cool down for a few hours then replend the water it took maybe two ltrs aprox poss less then ran it heater bled and working now temp within normal limits.

apart from liners where can water escape from under pressure that will not show a puddle on the floor common places going to check sump for water content soon as I can until then not moving it.

A few ideas would be helpfull please

regards rob

[neal]

Another possibility is that you have leak in the coolant system but its too small for the coolant to escape. Instead air gets drawn through the hole at low rpm by the low pressure side of the water pump. The air then displaces the coolant causing it to be expelled through the expansion tank overflow pipe.

This happened to me - problem was the radiator was holed. Actually it was pretty well rotted. Apparently this can be a serious problem if you use your car daily (mine's only a 98) since the position of the radiator doesn't allow water/rain to drain away from it easily.

Easy way to check this. Fill up the coolant tank then take the car out for say 20 minutes, giving it plenty of welly. Then stop and let the engine idle. If the coolant starts gushing from the overflow pipe onto the street then that's the problem.

Edited December 31, 2005 by neal

[bobbak]

Another possibility is that you have leak in the coolant system but its too small for the coolant to escape.  Instead air gets drawn through the hole at low rpm by the low pressure side of the water pump.  The air then displaces the coolant causing it to be expelled through the expansion tank overflow pipe.

This happened to me - problem was the radiator was holed.  Actually it was pretty well rotted.  Apparently this can be a serious problem if you use your car daily (mine's only a 98) since the position of the radiator doesn't allow water/rain to drain away from it easily.

Easy way to check this.  Fill up the coolant tank then take the car out for say 20 minutes, giving it plenty of welly.  Then stop and let the engine idle.  If the coolant starts gushing from the overflow pipe onto the street then that's the problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cheers will give that a try was going to pressure test the coolant system on tuesday but will try that first,

regards rob

[bobbak]

Another possibility is that you have leak in the coolant system but its too small for the coolant to escape.  Instead air gets drawn through the hole at low rpm by the low pressure side of the water pump.  The air then displaces the coolant causing it to be expelled through the expansion tank overflow pipe.

This happened to me - problem was the radiator was holed.  Actually it was pretty well rotted.  Apparently this can be a serious problem if you use your car daily (mine's only a 98) since the position of the radiator doesn't allow water/rain to drain away from it easily.

Easy way to check this.  Fill up the coolant tank then take the car out for say 20 minutes, giving it plenty of welly.  Then stop and let the engine idle.  If the coolant starts gushing from the overflow pipe onto the street then that's the problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just out of curiosity how much did a new rad set you back?

rob

[Rob C]

Could this be fate or just bad luck I now seem to be loosing water but with no evidence of any external water leaks but I am not loosing vast quantitys of it for example it took two weeks of every day driving from the last coolent level check doing aprox 500 miles in that time before the heater stopped blowing hot then the tempreture rose to above 100 degrees and I shut it down the coolent low level sensor in the expansion tank had packed in.

I got it home in stops and starts keeping the temp at just over 100 to 115 max let it cool down for a few hours then replend the water it took maybe two ltrs aprox poss less then ran it heater bled and working now temp within normal limits.

apart from liners where can water escape from under pressure that will not show a puddle on the floor common places going to check sump for water content soon as I can until then not moving it.

A few ideas would be helpfull please

regards rob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Rob one Rob to another..dropping the Oil will show you nothink....if you have a Liner Glue Seal failure the Cooling water will get into the Crank Case yes with the Oil yes...But will be burnt off as steam and be sucked out via the carbon Filter and get cobbled up (consumed) into the Intake plenuem chamber....All Car Engines for years have not been allowed to breath to atmoshere.

The Esprit has a history of leaky Hose Clips....with heat soke they do need to be checked..and tighning up...both in the Engine bay and also the many around the front end...been there Got the medal to prove it in 2002.

Double check the small pipe between the header tank and the one Under the Wheel Arch...Known fault..both my 2 V8's have needed attention...!!!

yes Rad Caps are also a problem..many owners have replaced them....main issue I think is the top flat black thin rubber seal under the cap it self...I had to replace the seal in mine..it had got screwed up...luckly as I'm an engineer I was able to make one to suit.

[Feffman]

I spoke with Dave Simkin, the tech from Lotus Cars USA, before purchasing my 1999. He noted the problem was Lotus used Loctite on the early engines. This Loctite needed to cure at least 72 hours before engine assembly. The guys assembling the engines were used to the Hylomar (apply and build almost immedately) and didn't let the Loctite cure properly on a number of engines. Thus the random failure. If your liners were installed with Loctite on Friday afternoon and the block sat all weekend, it's likely OK.

Lotus went back to old faithful Hylomar (like on the 4-cylinder Esprits) at some point and any rebuilds are instructed to use Hylomar. My engine failed due to the previous owner downshifting from 5th to 2nd (instead of 4th) at around 85MPH. Can you say 11,000RPM? The fully rebuilt engine has about 12,000 miles on the rebuild which was done with Hylomar (and allowed to set up for a few days compliments of Garth at Star Motors in Houston) and I've no problems!

Hey if the liners fail, it's a reason to install the forged pistons from JAE (www.JAEParts.com) with the rebuild!

Feff

Edited January 1, 2006 by Feffman

[bobbak]

Hi Rob one Rob to another..dropping the Oil will show you nothink....if you have a Liner Glue Seal failure the Cooling water will get into the Crank Case yes with the Oil yes...But will be burnt off as steam and be sucked out via the carbon Filter and get cobbled up (consumed) into the Intake plenuem chamber....All Car Engines for years have not been allowed to breath to atmoshere.

The Esprit has a history of leaky Hose Clips....with heat soke they do need to be checked..and tighning up...both in the Engine bay and also the many around the front end...been there Got the medal to prove it in 2002.

Double check the small pipe between the header tank and the one Under the Wheel Arch...Known fault..both my 2 V8's have needed attention...!!!

yes Rad Caps are also a problem..many owners have replaced them....main issue I think is the top flat black thin rubber seal under the cap it self...I had to replace the seal in mine..it had got screwed up...luckly as I'm an engineer I was able to make one to suit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Rob I understand the concept here however I would have thought that some water if going into the sump especially at the shut down point after the car had stood a while would eventually settle to bottom of the sump so by cracking the sump plug and looking for a small dribble of water before oil emerged would be a sign that the expensive option was a possability or rule it out.

what do you reckon?

If it does turn out to to be the feared liner anyone fancy a weekend engine stripping and rebuild party Ha!Ha!