Engine specs

[Artie]

Hey experts! I am buying an 89 Esprit SE, it is at a shop right now getting a new steering rack put on, but I have an engine spec question for you guys. The VIN states the car is an 89 SE, however, the engine has no chargecooler on it. It has no pump or cooler in the front of the car so I know it wasn't just omitted during an engine overhaul 4 years ago(before I owned it obviously) The cam covers are completely red, not just the tops. I'm curious if this is the older 210/215bhp engine or another version. I can't find any info on it. According to the shop working on it, the engine was overhauled about 15K miles ago but there is no record of it. Compression comes up great and runs well(not blindingly fast but I'm jaded when comparing any car as my RX7 is stupid fast), but just curious of the engine type/specs. Any help/info would be appreciated! Thanks

Art

[hovgaard]

Warning bells are ringing and the red Walk Away lamp is flashing.

Worst case scenario would be that this car has had its identity changed.

If not, it has had its spec changed to the worse.

I would have none of it if I were you.

Or am I mistaken? Did they ever use the SE badge on non chargecooled 4 pots?

Could you provide a picture of the engine?

[lince]

For what you say it seems you are buying a TURBO and not an the diference its like 50HP more or almost 25%more HP.

for the VIN if i

[Vulcan Grey]

Hey experts!  I am buying an 89 Esprit SE, it is at a shop right now getting a new steering rack put on, but I have an engine spec question for you guys.  The VIN states the car is an 89 SE, however,   the engine has no chargecooler on it.  It has no pump or cooler in the front of the car so I know it wasn't just omitted during an engine overhaul 4 years ago(before I owned it obviously)  The cam covers are completely red, not just the tops.  I'm curious if this is the older 210/215bhp engine or another version.  I can't find any info on it.  According to the shop working on it, the engine was overhauled about 15K miles ago but there is no record of it.  Compression comes up great and runs well(not blindingly fast but I'm jaded when comparing any car as my RX7 is stupid fast), but just curious of the engine type/specs.  Any help/info would be appreciated!  Thanks

Art

From the espritfactfile.com

'89 Model Year:        October '88

Esprit (N.A.); U.K. & Export 85 D 3374, 85 A/E/G/H/S 1087 

Esprit Turbo: U.K. & Export 85 D 3374, 85 A/E/c/H/S 1087 

Esprit Turbo (M.P.F.I.); USA      F - 2500 

As '88 M.Y. cars except: 

Heated door mirrors 

Central door locking 

Electric filler flap release. 

USA spec.: Lotus/Delco multi-point fuel injection, Renault transmission. 

40th Anniversary Commemorative Esprit Turbo (Except USA): November '88

As '89 M.Y. cars except: 

Carburetor Turbo (U.K.) or M.P.F.I. versions. 

Pearlescent white body, wheels & mirrors 

Strut mounted rear spoiler 

Front spoiler bib 

Sony compact disc auto-changer 

Elm instrument masks 

Silver fascia plaque. 

Esprit Turbo 'S.E.' (Chargecooler): 82/F

[x6gas]

If you've not parted with the cash, then walk away... or better still run.

SE cars are move powerful and have a number of spec upgrades. For this reason they command a considerable premium over the other Stevens turbo cars.

If it is really cheap and you're not bothered by having an extra 50 horses behind you then fair enough but I would definitely check that the car hasn't been ringed. Could be a smashed up car avoiding a cat listing...

Post all of the info you have, pictures, vin and engine numbers on here and let us ruminate! Also very worth the HPI check which you can do online and gives you immediate results and a

[Artie]

First off, Thanks everyone for your responses. Well, I ran the VIN on Carfax and it states it's an SE. It has the electric release for the fuel doors, lumbar seat adjust, not sure about the auto mirrors but to no consequence. The turbo is water cooled and has an internal wastegate as well which I know the older models/non SE didn't. The confusing thing is that the European spec cars and US spec cars varied greatly on some of the options and upgrades so it's hard to tell what's right. The engine has the GM Delco ecu so it's at least the 228hp version, I haven't gotten the car home yet to verify if it has been chipped yet. I intend on adding the coolcharger and the additional injectors so it's no big deal. I am very qualified to work on the car as I am a Rotary engine Tech for mazda primarily the FD3S 13B-Rew engines. I am paying 13K USD for the car so I am getting a good deal. I am just trying to verify the upgrades and engine specs for my knowledge. The car is very clean for a 16 year old car. Engine runs well for the HP rating and is the color I wanted. These are extremely rare to find here for a reasonable price so I don't mind setting some cash aside to upgrade some of the other components. Thanks again and keep the ideas rolling.

Art

Edited December 3, 2005 by Artie

[Vulcan Grey]

First off, Thanks everyone for your responses.  Well, I ran the VIN on Carfax and it states it's an SE.  It has the electric release for the fuel doors, lumbar seat adjust, not sure about the auto mirrors but to no consequence.  The turbo is water cooled and has an internal wastegate as well which I know the older models/non SE didn't.  The confusing thing is that the European spec cars and US spec cars varied greatly on some of the options and upgrades so it's hard to tell what's right.  The engine has the GM Delco ecu so it's at least the 228hp version, I haven't gotten the car home yet to verify if it has been chipped yet.  I intend on adding the coolcharger and the additional injectors so it's no big deal.  I am very qualified to work on the car as I am a Rotary engine Tech for mazda primarily the FD3S 13B-Rew engines.  I am paying 13K USD for the car so I am getting a good deal.  I am just trying to verify the upgrades and engine specs for my knowledge.  The car is very clean for a 16 year old car.  Engine runs well for the HP rating and is the color I wanted.  These are extremely rare to find here for a reasonable price so I don't mind setting some cash aside to upgrade some of the other components.  Thanks again and keep the ideas rolling.

Art

Carfax isn't always accurate. It is an 89 USA, but not an 89 SE. Just as you said, Delco injected 228hp. Both were sold at the same time in this country. Beginning with '90, all USA cars were SE's, no non-chargecooled cars were brought in.

[Artie]

Carfax isn't always accurate.  It is an 89 USA, but not an 89 SE. Just as you said, Delco injected 228hp.  Both were sold at the same time in this country.  Beginning with '90, all USA cars were SE's, no non-chargecooled cars were brought in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, I think I'm confused, there were no nonchargecooled cars shipped in period or just in 89? Not sure what you are saying. The VIN ends in -62660 which according to everything I've researched, the SE's started in the -50000's for 89MY. Either way, the upgrade to the chargecooler and additional injectors would bring the engine to the same specs wouldn't it(along with the 12.5psi boost)? Thanks again, just trying to get my ducks in a row to shoot this guy an offer based on if it's an SE "half breed" or not.

Art

[Vulcan Grey]

So, I think I'm confused, there were no nonchargecooled cars shipped in period or just in 89?  Not sure what you are saying.  The VIN ends in -62660 which according to everything I've researched, the SE's started in the -50000's for 89MY.  Either way, the upgrade to the chargecooler and additional injectors would bring the engine to the same specs wouldn't it(along with the 12.5psi boost)?  Thanks again, just trying to get my ducks in a row to shoot this guy an offer based on if it's an SE "half breed" or not.

Art

In 89 there were Non-SE and SE models shipped to the states. The VIN# is the last 4 digits. 5000+ is an SE. 2660 is a non-SE.

[Artie]

In 89 there were Non-SE and SE models shipped to the states.  The VIN# is the last 4 digits.  5000+ is an SE.  2660 is a non-SE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OKay, that clears it up, I'll have Lotus run a check too, but that is very helpful. This cuts about 2K off the offer so that's good news! There have been some obvious upgrades to the car to make it appear as an SE. It's pretty well sorted out though and is a clean example. I can continue to upgrade it although it's going to take some $$$! Do you know if I need a new ECM(ECU) if I upgrade to the Chargecooler and additional 2 injectors?

Art

[Vulcan Grey]

OKay, that clears it up, I'll have Lotus run a check too, but that is very helpful.

Edited December 4, 2005 by Vulcan Grey

[hovgaard]

I had an engine like that in my 1989 Turbo. It's not the same driving experience at all as an SE.

I second Vulcan Greys statement above. You will be much better off buying an SE. Hang in there. One will turn up.

If you can afford to turn a Turbo into an SE, you can afford to buy a V8. Walk, dammit.

[Artie]

I had an engine like that in my 1989 Turbo. It's not the same driving experience at all as an SE.

I second Vulcan Greys statement above. You will be much better off buying an SE. Hang in there. One will turn up.

If you can afford to turn a Turbo into an SE, you can afford to buy a V8. Walk, dammit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, thanks for the info, please don't take offense, like I said I am not really looking for a bunch more power. I want a nice unique driver and somewhat of a project. See my earlier post about the cost, I can appreciate your skepticism, but the choices are limited here($$$ being the first thing) The chassis and body are almost perfect. These are hard to find and I don't intend on walking away. The RX7 I have is a perfect example of a performance car/track car, I'm not trying to make a "world beater HP car" if that was the case I'd buy a MKIV Supra. I want the Esprit because it has always been on my "Dream Car" list and SE or not(not trying to make an SE wanna be btw) I love the style and novelty of it. As for affording to turn a Turbo into an SE that 's not the intention, I am RESEARCHING the capabilities and specs so I know what my future options are. If I can only net 30 hp more with this engine that's okay, if I want to race someone that's what I built the FD for.

[Vulcan Grey]

Again, thanks for the info, please don't take offense, like I said I am not really looking for a bunch more power.

Edited December 4, 2005 by Vulcan Grey

[Artie]

Yeah, no offense taken, or given.  Just wanted to help you make sure you knew what you were getting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Like I said I have been looking for a decent example for a couple of years now but never had the go ahead from the warden to buy. The price is right and the engine is fresh, rebuilt 12K miles ago. The body is straight and needs a little buffing here and there but I didn't want a complete resto just a slight modder. So again thanks for all your input and help, the technical specs on these cars seem to have some discrepencies from source to source and I figured you experienced fellows would have more knowledge than some 3rd party book or reference. I've learned a ton in a few days and am excited to get the car home this week and start on some of the minor things. I'll keep you posted of my progress and please continue to add your comments and thoughts as I'm just learning all of the specifics! Thanks again for your help!

Art

[x6gas]

Fair enough - so long as you know what you are getting and going in with your eyes open...

Best of luck with it and remember to post some pix here once you've picked it up...

[hovgaard]

I didn't mean to knock the Turbo. I got the impression that what you wanted was an SE, and that if you couldn't find one, you would make one. I find that to be an uneconomical path, so I recommended against it. If you are happy with the Turbo, then don't walk.

[Artie]

I didn't mean to knock the Turbo. I got the impression that what you wanted was an SE, and that if you couldn't find one, you would make one. I find that to be an uneconomical path, so I recommended against it. If you are happy with the Turbo, then don't walk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks both, yeah, as I mentioned I had no preconceived notions about performance on either model. I have driven both SE and Turbo and they do differ significantly, but I have been trying to find a car that suited both my budget and tastes. I can upgrade both and as I am very capable with tools I have no problem taking on the mod list in a cautious fashion. My biggest concerns were that the car seemed an odd mix of SE and Turbo parts and add ons so I didn't want to pay the guy 19K for a car that is only worth 13,500! The other bits are ancillary to that. That being said, on to my next question, is it safe to install the "green dot" euro spec cams gears on the Turbo(non chargecooled) engine. I have 92 Octane gas locally but don't want to damage anything internally if I can avoid it. I have access to a pair of these cam gears for about $150 so I didn't know if this was a safe way to gain a few HP. Keep it coming guys, thanks for all the help.

Art

[hovgaard]

Dunno about cams.

I would guestimate that your stock fuel system isn't really safe for more than about 240 bhp, so you might be a candidate for a rising rate fuel pressure regulator or something like that.

And I would suggest that water injection is easier to build than charge air cooling. Under boost, water consumption should probably be around 25% of the fuel consumption.

Disclaimer: Anyone going down this path should keep a keen eye on EGT (prior to the turbine) and lambda, and be aware that if you use this setup to increase power dramatically (which you can), failure of the water injection even for a single engine cycle will cause melted pistons.

[Artie]

Dunno about cams.

I would guestimate that your stock fuel system isn't really safe for more than about 240 bhp, so you might be a candidate for a rising rate fuel pressure regulator or something like that.

And I would suggest that water injection is easier to build than charge air cooling. Under boost, water consumption should probably be around 25% of the fuel consumption.

Disclaimer: Anyone going down this path should keep a keen eye on EGT (prior to the turbine) and lambda, and be aware that if you use this setup to increase power dramatically (which you can), failure of the water injection even for a single engine cycle will cause melted pistons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the disclaimer, I plan on upping the power somewhat but will research all my options, right now I'm looking into the water injection as many Rotary engine tuners use this with dramatic success. Also, I am considering upping the stock injectors to compensate for the increase in fuel demand as I raise the power of the engine. I will most likely use an Apexi super AFC to adjust the fuel curve dependent on boost and rpm. I have much research to do and will keep you guys posted of what I end up doing. I am very familiar with boosting engines, but this Delco system is new to me so I will proceed with great caution. I have access to one of the top DSM engine tuners in the US so he will be a great source for my efforts. Thanks again, I think I will hold off on the Euro spec cam gears for now to stay on the safe side, there are a couple of mechanical issues I will attend to first, the steering rack is coming off to get refurbished first off, and new front brake rotors to be installed also, along with a fresh exhaust and down pipe of Stainless steel.

Art

[hovgaard]

When the time comes for me to replace front rotors, or when I feel rich (which ever comes first), I will also replace the calipers with something of proper size. But then I have 17 inch wheels.

[mchlrodrigues]

Dunno about cams.

I would guestimate that your stock fuel system isn't really safe for more than about 240 bhp, so you might be a candidate for a rising rate fuel pressure regulator or something like that.

And I would suggest that water injection is easier to build than charge air cooling. Under boost, water consumption should probably be around 25% of the fuel consumption.

Disclaimer: Anyone going down this path should keep a keen eye on EGT (prior to the turbine) and lambda, and be aware that if you use this setup to increase power dramatically (which you can), failure of the water injection even for a single engine cycle will cause melted pistons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The green dot cams won't increase the power output of the motor but they will shift the torque curve lower down the rev range. With a MAF injection system I'd say go ahead. But with a speed density (MAP) system, the mapping could be a bit off. I'd want to have someone check the A/F with a data logger or wide band O2 meter to confirm that the motor's not leaning out anywhere.

Michael

[Vulcan Grey]

The green dot cams won't increase the power output of the motor but they will shift the torque curve lower down the rev range.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Vulcan Grey

[Artie]

The 89 Esprit with GM MP4 injection (MAP Manifold Air Pressure) will be fine with the green dot 104 pullies for intake and exhaust.  In fact that is what Lotus supplied for UK Esprits.  The red dot/blue dot 110 pullies are for emissions compliance in the States, at the expense of driveability. 

If you change only one, put the green dot pulley on the intake and move the intake cam pulley to the oil pump.  Timing of the oil pump pulley doesn't matter because you have no distributor.  Like Michael said, no more power, but some say better response down low.  You also shouldn't have any problem with passing emissions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AWESOME info, that's what I'd like since the turbo seems laggy compared to my 51mm turbos on the FD, as for emissions, I live in Mo and that isn't a checked item, just safety inspections are required!!!!! Lucky me, As for the tuning, you can bet I will be using a dyno and a wide band, I have a local shop with an all wheel drive dyno(mustang dyno) which can load the car unlike a dynojet, so I can data log and use the wide band for tuning. Again, I'm only looking to get a little more power safely. I'm working with a local machine shop to configure an air to water intercooler for the engine so coupled with the larger injectors and fpr(fuel pressure regulator) we should be able to boost power a bit safely and have more room should I need it. My primary concern right now is to get the car handling well as it should and get the steering rack fixed. It's obvious that the shocks and springs are under sprung and under damped so the car is wallowy(is that a word?) Which is to be expected for a 16 year old car.

Art

[Vulcan Grey]

AWESOME info, that's what I'd like since the turbo seems laggy compared to my 51mm turbos on the FD, as for emissions, I live in Mo and that isn't a checked item, just safety inspections are required!!!!!

Edited December 6, 2005 by Vulcan Grey