Honda powered 2-11

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Have to agree on the driver training - I pax'd with Nick Adams round the Top Gear track in a std S2 Exige as part of the launch marketing for the Toyota cars. We were chasing a VXR 220 race car that wasn't road legal running apparently 300bhp and apart for the straights we were all over the back of it. Simply stunning to watch from inside the car.

I think that's part of the attraction with the Elise based cars - they are so well sorted that you don't need a million hp to appreciate a great drive.

Edited June 7, 2009 by ads_green

[stephanie plum]

Couldn't agree more on the driver skills angle. Very often the Honda powered cars are a pita on track - quick on the straights but the drivers can't maintain the same speed differential in the corners - so they over brake and get in the way. Pefect example of that at the EGP in Hethel - Honday powered S1 Exige that was slow in every single bend and held people up - even those in K series engined cars.

Learn to utilise the power you have before looking to increase it

[Edika]

Yes, when you have low power, you have to be very good in curves to chase powerfull cars. So you have not other choice than to progess.

I've run on trackdays 4 years with a simple Elise S1 120 hp, I've still this car. And I think it is the best car Lotus do. I use it today on track with a lot of fun. But all the time you gain in the curves, powerfull car get it back in straights. So I wanted something quicker. I didn't want to buy a Exige because I didn't see a real difference on time on track (too havy). So when the 2-11 appears, I saw it was the best car for me. And I was wrong. The best car for me was my Elise S1

More fast you go more difficult it is. The 2-11 as enought power to go fast but not enought to have fun, my way. That's why I began this poject.

I agree that powerfull cars driver's often forgive to progress in curves. I hope to continue progressing in my driving experience, even with 380 hp.

[Scotty C]

I would like my car to have a bit more power now, then I might be able to keep up with the GT4 boys

[alatif]

Anymore news on this conversion. an update would be nice.

Amer

[Edika]

The car is nearly finished. The final engine mounts will be fitted. The TOE will be stronger. THe brakes also. Final power will be around 390 HP. Electronic problems are solved.

The driveshafts are 100% in line so there won't be any problems of reliability. It's a very straight forward conversion so the handling should be different than the original 2-11.

Unfortunatly, the test on track have been reported because of the weather.

[Scotty C]

Bravo sir and Maidstone for getting this going.

Can't wait to see it on track.

PS i was at Le Mans at the weekend (nice track)

[Edika]

Le Mans is a very secure track, I've been twice this year, it's very fast and fabulous with the 211

Could be more exiting with more power

Scott : next time you go to France tell me, I leave at 1h30 of the Mas du Clos and the Val de Vienne and at 4h of Le Mans

[Scotty C]

it was slippy in the wet, but i like it that way

http://www.lotuscupeurope.com/race-report7.html

Standing on top of the podium at Le Mans is something I will remember for the rest of my life.

[Edika]

Congratulations Scott

[Edika]

Hi guys, I need help for 2 problems on my future car :

- do you know why MSC advise me against fitting a LSD on my 211R ? It's his job and I trust him, but I have no "scientific" explanation. Massive understeer ? Dramatic change of the handling ? I don't understand

- about the wheels : 7 twin spoke ultra lightweight are only 6.5J front and 7.5J rear so it's very nice if you run with 048 but it's impossible to fit slick tyres 230/625/17 at the rear wheels, so should I keep the 5 spoke "normal" lightweight of my first 211 (exchange the wheels before to sell it) ? Because, I'm sure I will have grip problems ...

[stephanie plum]

I can comment on the LSD side of things, purely from conversations I have had with Nick - he and people like Gavan Kershaw, Tony Shute etc believe that LSD affects the high speed handling of the 2-11 (and all Lotus) and not for the better. They recommend it only if you are doing high speed work in the lower gears - for example hill climbing. Based on what I have discussed with Nick - I would say that MSC have given you sound advice on that front - and don't forget they support Elise racers and also race their own cars.

[Edika]

and don't forget they support Elise racers and also race their own cars

I think about that of course.

But some people here (south of England ) explain my that at the end of the curves, when I will accelerate, the inside rear whell will burn and I will loose my power in smoke

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I was going to comment here but then I found this from Nick Adams on LSD's and decided it was far better than anything I could have put!

The Elise was always designed from the outset to work without an LSD. We have recently started to offer an LSD as an option on the Toyota engined cars, primarily in response to market demand from the Autocross enthusists in the USA, who need one to be competitive when accelerating away at full throttle from very slow, tight corners in first or second gear.

In this type of competition they do not tend to run high speed (100mph +) corners and therefore the increase in understeer on this type of corner which you get with an LSD is of little negative consequence to them and they therefore are better off with an LSD.

In our experience an Elise or Exige equipped with an LSD is at a disadvantage to one without an LSD on a typical European race track. On top of that the LSD bluntens the steering feel and repsonse of the car which we don't like.

If you want an LSD then by all means fit one, but please understand that there are negative as well as positive effects. In the instance you describe, instead of spinning the inside wheel as you accelerate away at full throttle (which can be easily fixed by modulating the throttle! Very Happy ) a car with a 2:1 LSD like the obne we supply will provide twice the torque to the outside wheel as it does to the inside one. This will increase the slip angle of the outside wheel and the car will tend to oversteer heavily on corner exit, requiring a reduction in throttle if you are not to spin.... It isn't much quicker, honest.

The optional diff we supply is a Torsen unit, the aftermarket unit supplied by Motorsport is a plate diff, with a similar 2:1 bias and no preload so in terms of action it mimics the Torsen closely

[Edika]

I'm allright with that but why so much oversteer in a Lotus.

Even a 977 GT3, very oversteering car, has a LSD : so I don't understand

[Scotty C]

I fitted an LSD to my car at the start of the year (when the gearbox was out getting rebuilt) I noticed the LSD was good for getting power on earlier in slow corners (it can increase understeer), but also found it did increase the oversteer on highspeed corners (i found out to my cost first time I had it fitted, excuse #58).

It's all about personal preference but I would think that you might not need it to start with (it will also be safer without a LSD). You can always fit one after if you feel the need.

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I'm allright with that but why so much oversteer in a Lotus.

Even a 977 GT3, very oversteering car, has a LSD : so I don't understand

It's all a trade off and compromise. With the 977 GT3 you're dealing with a lot more power than the standard Elise variant and an LSD will come into play more. Also it's going to add some high speed understeer which on a 977 isn't a bad thing.

Depending on the model (race/road) the GT3 will have full on TCS/SCS/PSM etc which will help keep any oversteer induced by the LSD in check.

Also the car was most probably built from the ground up with LSD in mind which the Elise most certainly wasn't. I'm sure given sufficient tuning of the suspension and geo you could make it work with the LSD better and offset the disadvantages but it'll take some time and paitence.

[Edika]

but also found it did increase the oversteer on highspeed corners : that's exactly what I suspected, I'm pleased that someone (who as try without and with LSD) confirm it. Besides, the 211R has less weight in the rear ...

it will also be safer without : surely and that's what I need in a first time

I'm sure given sufficient tuning of the suspension and geo you could make it work with the LSD better and offset the disadvantages : yes, probably also increase the anti roll bar

Thank you both for your explanation and opinion.

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Did this car ever get finished ok?

Would love to know how it turned out in the end.

I'd consider this if my gearbox went 'pop'

[Edika]

Still waiting

And I broke my gearbox on my 211 Toy at 3000 miles just before to sell it. I had to cancel/withdraw 2 great trackdays : Magny Cours F1 and Dijon

Now, move up Andrew, I have no more car ....

But an other nice solution is to fit a SADEV sequential geabox, a friend of mine fit it on a Cup 260 : it's fabulous and SADEV is french

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Have to agree - money no object I would install the sadev unit in a heartbeat.

The only downsides is the rebuild frequency but some people seem to find the C60/C64 gearbox almost a consumable item these days (esp when running 300bhp+)

[Edika]

SADEV is cheapper than my conversion because 380 HP need some modifications on the car.

It's around 15.000 € in France, expensive but reliable. Better than Qaife, I think.

Toy unit is good if you control the oil surge (accusump + special oilpan).

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In the UK the sadev + fitting/integration kit from Lotus is 23k euros.

Buying the gearbox for 15k euros and getting the rest of the kit from Lotus would seem to be a cheaper option.

I guess the problem you also have is that you're the first (AFAIK) so will have to endure the R&D for it.

I think the Toyota engine is fine and can take 300-400 bhp ok. The gearbox is the major weak link for anything over 270ish.

I did hear rumours that lotus were looking at other options but nothing yet.

[Scotty C]

if you get a good deal from sadev give me a shout

Im coming back to France in June, Im doing the trip below then staying out for a week chilling out before racing at Magny Cour on the 10th and 11th July.

Fingers crossed you can come a play in your new 2-11.

Sunday 27th June - Mas du Clos Trackday

The highlight of this years Frolic. Mas du Clos lives up to all expectations, it's possibly the most beatifull circuit you'll ever visit as well as being fantastic to drive.

Monday 28th June - Charade Trackday

Charade really is one of the best circuits in Europe! Not for the fainthearted we had one of our best ever days there as part of FF6. Renowned for it's concrete walls which hold the circuit together as it's set on the side of a volcano.

Tuesday 29th June - Head to Pau

A 4-5 hour drive towards the Pyrenees to get to our base for Pau Arnos. Some may want to go for a mountain drive, others head to Pau via the Millau bridge, which ever way you go there are some fabulous roads off the autoroutes! There is a small chance we will stay 1hr+ from Pau IF we can find somewhere that can cover Pau & Haute track days, it's unlikely though.

Wednesday 30th June - Pau Arnos trackday

Our most requested circuit! It was 2006 that we last visited Pau, that's way too long. The circuit is set at the foot of the Pyrenees with some amazing scenery and is one that just has to be driven.

Thursday 1st July - Drive to Bordeaux area

An easy drive up to our next stop off which we hope will make the final leg of this Frolic more of a holiday! With Bordeaux and La Rochelle close by it would be insane of us not to allow you to make the most of the area.

Friday 2nd July - Haute Saintonge track day

Our first visit to this brand new track. After a recommendation of a couple of members we've decided to give it a go. The circuit looks good with plenty of gradient but is a bit shorter than the other circuits, just a fraction longer than Brands Indy whilst also being one of the fastest in France.

Doesn't look much on the picture but it will be fun.. the video is interesting!

A little video - (obviously not a LoT day!) -

Saturday 3rd July - Day relaxing or back home

Some will head off, either home or on holiday today while others may stay the day and head back on the Sunday. It's 7hrs back to Calais for those going to the UK.

[Edika]

Very nice trip Scott, you will enjoy !

MdC : beautyfull impressive

Charade : nice, 2d part is dangerous

Pau : very very good track

Saintonge : little but fun, even with powerfull cars

Magny Cours : high speed allowed