Window Seals Help

[bobfogle]

In the continuing saga of restoring my S1, I have come to replacing the old (gone) window “seals” on the inside and out side of the power windows. (Top of the interior door panel and top of the outside door.)

Does anyone have a picture or drawing of the early S1s (Jan. 1977) window seal detail?

What goes where and how is it mounted?

SJS’s parts list shows a rubber outer seal (makes sense) - however, what is left of mine is a desolving felt strip (could have been a brush like strip at one time) - but not rubber.

Any S1 restorers out there with suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I’m stuck.

Regards,

Bob

[Nelly]

Hi Bob,

I am currently doing this on my S2 and I would imagine they are the same (although I know the rear quater windows are different).

The inside top of the doorcard has the felt strip - there are two per side, a long and short to go either side of the doorframe for the quaterlight window by the A pillar.

The rubber weatherstrip you refer to on SJ's website is sandwiched between two pieces of metal - a flat strip (on the underside) and an angled section (on top), which has a slight taper from one end to the other. These strips also have three semicircular cut outs (one at each end and one in the middle) where a threaded pin sits which slots into the top of the door itself.

SJ do sell the complete unit (its called a top door finisher) and its about £55. There is a picture of it but its not very clear. Note that because of the taper both LH and RH sides are different.

Mine were falling apart when I took them off the car becuase of rust - but if you want any pictures let me know and I will post some, they do show how they go together.

Hope that helps.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Nelly9000

[Paul Coleman]

My early S1 didn't have any rubber seals on the outside of the door they were felt like the inside ones. Of course they were absolutely no use in keeping the rain out so I shall fit rubber ones outside on mine when I put them back together. I presumed the rubber seals clip onto the metal tapered top cappings?

From memory the inside felt ones clipped onto the top of the door cards.

Paul.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Paul Coleman

[Nelly]

On mine the rubber is pop rivited between the two metal sections. Also confirm my felt strips clip onto a ali rail which is also rivited to the top of the doorcards.

[bobfogle]

Hi Neil and Paul:

Thank you for you responses. Very, very helpful.

Neil, it is good to know I’m not crazy about no rubber in the early ‘77s.

Looks like what I need to do is upgrade to the S2 window seal detail. But, about $200 from SJS for the two “top door finisher” is a little steep - so I think I’ll try to make something up. I have the brush strips and rubber seal strip from SJS. I assume I’ll have to remove the window frame from the door to fit the outer rubber strip.

(By the way, what is a doorcard?)

Neil, the pictures you offered would be a great help!!!

Again, thanks guys for your help. You guys make this a great forum.

Regards,

Bob

[Nelly]

Hi Bob,

You're welcome. The doorcard is the fibreglass shell that covers the inside of the door. Its a bit more than a doorcard usually is but I didn't know what else to call it (doorshell?)

I know what you mean about the costs, thankfullyI know an engineer who is remaking mine for me in stainless steel so they don't rust again, so all I have bought are the rubber strips which you have.

You don't need to take the top window frame off the door to fit the strips. Once you take the doorcard/doorshell (!) off the inside of the door you can access the door inards and thererfore the door finisher pins.

I had a lok at my photos and they are not quite as clear as I thought - I will get some done soon and post (I will also get a shot of the top of the door itself so you can see what mine fits to).

[bobfogle]

Hi Neil:

This is beginning to become more clear to me - thanks to you!

Good news about not having to remove the window and it's frame.

The tapered metal plate on the top of the doors (outside) seems to be held on with 2 (or 3?) small bolts with small nuts.

I can feel them, one at each end, when I reach behind the inside door liner. Is there a bolt/nut in the middle? If so, I can't reach it. What to do?

Pictures would be very, very helpful - at your convenience.

Regards,

Bob

.

[Nelly]

Hi Bob,

Yes there is a fixing in the middle as well. Three in total. Once the door lining is off (the doorcard as I called it) you can then get to all three and remove it. Once the nuts are off it should lift straight up and off.

I have found a photo which might help:

The top part is the metal trim, and the kinked part is theother metal section. The rubber is the section that the kinked section is over. You can see the rivet holes, and also the semi-circular cut outs where the pins sit. The pin itself is shown on the top section of trim protruding up from the cut out.

I will get a side on photo but as you can see my trims were completely unusable once they came off the car!

Edited May 6, 2010 by Nelly9000

[Paul Coleman]

Bob

As Neil says there are three studs on the top metal capping with nuts holding the capping to the top of the door. It is not an easy job to get those off and I've yet to hear of somebody doing it without breaking those studs off. I broke all of mine when I did it as the nuts were rusted solid to the studs and they're only M3 from memory, so very easy to break. The middle stud is roughly in the middle of the top capping.

Without taking the glass and frame out it will be interesting to see if you can get it off. I'd personally be happy with breaking the studs off (and getting new ones welded on later - which is what I did) rather than having to take the innards of the door out to gain access. If you can get a socket on the nut the studs will break off quite easily.

Hopefully you can see the position of the three cutouts in the top of my door here...

The front of the door is to the right in this photo.

Paul.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Paul Coleman

[Nelly]

The cut outs on my door are much bigger than yours Paul. Thats why maybe the capping came off without having to take the top frame off first (and probably why so much water made its way inside the door now I think about it.

The studs on mine actually remained in place, probably more luck than judgement!

[Paul Coleman]

Did you manage to get the top cappings off then without undoing the nuts at all? Mine wouldn't budge at all and breaking the studs did the least amount of damage in the end. I had the cappings blasted and new studs welded on and they now look as good as new

Paul.

[bobfogle]

Hi Guys:

Since I’ll be following your lead in upgrading my window seal detail from S1 to S2, I thought some pictures of my S1 Door details would forward our discussions.

Paul - thanks for your picture of the top view of your door. As you can see from my pics - we look the same - that is good news because I understand that there are differences within S1s. For the S1, once the upholstered panel is removed, the inner panel is fixed - a moulded part of the door.

Your info about the 3 small studs is very helpful. I’ll not worry if I just break them off. So far, I have not been able to reach the middle stud behind the window. Can get to the outer ones. Will keep trying.

The next question is how does the rubber (from SJS) mount under the metal trim piece and against the window? Any body have an end or cross section view?

Great help - thanks again.

Bob

[Paul Coleman]

Bob

I don't know how far you plan to go with this job but it may be worth taking the window frames out of the doors to check if they're split. Both of mine were cracked and I had to get them re-welded

By the way, your doors look exactly the same as mine.

My aluminium frames were split where you see the frame exiting from the door in your top photo. What are yours like around that area? Somebody had put body filler all over mine and painted it black!!! No, no, no...

Paul.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Paul Coleman

[Nelly]

One of my door frames (driver side) was split too, so its worth checking.

Here is a shot of my door if its any help:

The bodyshop doing the respray took the trims off the car but I would presume the nuts came off the studs OK because the stud are intact and he buts are not on them.

Bob, I will try and get a cross section for you as it is quite difficult to explain. From what I can see there is nothing else that secures the whole capping against the window other than the three studs. It is a concern I have when putting the whole lot back together in the near future as a lot of water clearly made its way inside my doors - see how rusty the window runner is (and the rail which holds the glass was even worse).

[Tony K]

Hi Bob,

As a general rule, gel coat S1s (i.e. early S1s) have just a fuzzy strip (no rubber seal) on the outside, and painted S1s (mid and late S1s) have the rubber seal on the outside at the base of the window. If your paint code starts with "S", it's a gel coat car; if it starts with "L" or "A", it's lacquer or enamel. Generally speaking, the gel coat finishes were phased out around March of 1977, although there is no clear-cut line. Most "7703" S1s are gelcoat, and the majority of "7704" S1s are traditionally painted, but not all.

If your S1 is a Federal (H) car, and chassis number is 250H or higher, it's most likely traditionally painted and had the rubber seals. If it is 200H or lower, it's almost positively gel coat and never had the rubber seal. The vague area is between 225H and 250H; mix of gel coat and paint, and I've been told of the existence of one gel coat car in that range that has the rubber strips (thus breaking the norm of gel coat = fuzzy / paint = rubber).

Okay, anorak time over . . .

[bobfogle]

Hi Tony:

I think my "paint code" is S 07 (it is very hard to read).

ID No is 77010116H - so looks like mine is gel coat and non-rubber.

Thank god for would be anoraks.

For all S1 owners - its great to have them on our side.

Thanks for the help - Did I see as part of your signature that you own 4 S1s?

Regards,

Bob

Hi Paul and Neil:

I have inspected both door frames and they are solid.

Did you have any problems with the frames below the door level?

Do I need to take the frames out because that is where the problem is?

Thanks for the heads up.

Regards,

Bob

[superdavelotus]

Hi all,

I haven't read all the post and not 100% what you are after but I have a drawing of the metal strip for the door top finisher that's supposed to go with the rubber/felt strip.

I did have a batch made in stainless steel. I could get a price and see if I can get another batch made. I would have thought it would cost much. I would need about 20 (10 sets to get cost down).

Is it like this with the rubber strip? You would have to source your own rubber strips out.

Let me know,

David Walters

[Tony K]

Hi Tony:

I think my "paint code" is S 07 (it is very hard to read).

ID No is 77010116H - so looks like mine is gel coat and non-rubber.

Thank god for would be anoraks.

For all S1 owners - its great to have them on our side.

Thanks for the help - Did I see as part of your signature that you own 4 S1s?

Regards,

Bob

Hi Bob,

If your car is red, your paint code should be S02, Signal Red.

Yes, I have four S1s at the moment. I'm a bit addicted, I must admit.

Cheers,

Tony

p.s. -- I'm waging a campaign to save original gelcoat finishes. If it's dull, just wet sand it and polish it; it's usually 1mm deep in most parts of the body. They are unique finishes, part of the charm of the early S1s, and very durable and lasting. You'll never have the resistance to stone chips and road rash of the original gelcoat finish once you paint the car. And you'll never have the straight-from-the-mold crispness and smoothness. Spot or panel repairs can be done to fix blemishes. Never before and never since has a car been finished the way those 200 or so Esprit S1s were.

p.p.s. -- your car is, sequentially by chassis number (but not necessarily exactly in that order), approximately the 15th Federal S1 made. The first "H" car was 102H. Not sure if they skipped any numbers from there through 116.

- T

[Nelly]

Hi Bob,

I never had a problem with the frame below the door level, but my driver side was split at the point where it enters the door. Its being welded this week so I should know Friday how successful it has been.

PS another thumbs up for anoraks!

[bobfogle]

Hi Tony:

Yes, indeed it is RED.

I'm delighted to know about the quality of a gel coat finish - I had no idea.

That explains why, in spite of being 33 years old, the finish looks so GOOD.

I have some very small chips here and there plus some spider areas that are hard to see - but no body damage - no sign of repairs. The finish looks great. And I haven't put my hand to it yet.

Clearly, I have a lot to learn about these cars. Thanks for your help!

Regards,

Bob

Hi Neil:

Good news about the split not hiding below door level.

I agree with your thumbs up.

Regards,

Bob

Hi David:

Thanks for the offer. I believe I can salvage mine. If not, you'll hear from me.

Regards,

Bob