Engine Removal V8

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Hi All

In the process of removing my V8 engine assembly and the engine is snagging on a couple of air con pipes. The Lotus manual says lift engine so that access can be gained to the a/c compressor and removed from the engine assembly ........fat chance of that. The pipes are fairly short and therefore the engine assembly cannot be moved rearwards.

All other connectors loose inc low pressure feed to the pas system.

Alternative is to split the unions that connect up the air con system located ojn the underside of the passenger fuel tank area. Does anyone know if there is a set procedure fro degassing and am I likely to end up with oil draining from the system ?

Cheers Paul

[fastdave92649]

Purging your AC system requires special tools and machines to recover the gases (at least in the US). If you make sure to take out the bolt that mounts the AC pipes to the frame you should have plenty of slack to raise the engine enough to get your hand in there to undo the last of the AC compressor bolts. Then just rest it aside on the front corner of the frame and pull the engine.

Intent is to raise the engine vertically to gain better access to the bolts from underneath, not rearwards.

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Cheers Dave

Managed to free up the snagging pipes by first removing the 10mm bolt that attaches the a/c steel pipes to the sump but due to the fact that I am working on a 5 degree slope, have 2 rows of slabs with shingle between to work from and only a single garage I decided the best option was to undo the 2 a/c hoses beneath the fuel tank.

The a/c didnt work before so no gas was emitted from the system. (Thinking about removing the a/c unit when re-installing the engine as they are more trouble than they are worth in my opinion)

Engine and transmission is now out and sitting on blocks awaiting a good steam clean/pressure wash before I go any further. As you know if you have done this job before, engine removal isnt the easiest of jobs especially when you are working underneath with several years of road debris, leaking turbo coolant pipes and on top of that years of oil leaks and just general shit droping into your eyes, hair and face.

What didnt help was the pdf workshop notes I picked up for a few £ on ebay. Several important details like "access to the pas pump can be acheived by removing the top cam cover" missing from the notes !!

Yeah........sure I know now but would have been an easier task to remove these before pulling the engine

Anyway thanks for your help

Cheers

Paul

[Winter]

I have just completed the rebuild on my engine (with a lot of help from Mike Sekinger and best-pal Geoff). It took Geoff and me 13 hours to remove the engine. We managed to unbolt the a/c compressor and get the low-pressure pipe off the p/s pump (contortionism). The high-pressure union was seized onto the pipe that goes to the front of the car and the pipe fractured at its junction.

It took us two days to put the engine back in (we finished last Saturday) and I've still to get it started.

Yes, there's a lot of work - which makes Mike's images all the more impressive - and while I can just about see how one person could do a removal and re-install, even with two - one of whom, not me, is highly skilled - it's a struggle. Incidentally, the fractured p/s high-pressure pipe was repaired by means of a compression joint. I'll know if it doesn't leak when I get the engine going.

So far, I have been fortunate with the rebuild. I had the heads exquisitely ported at Ultimate Performance, which included throat treatment, and then rebuilt them. The block liners were virtually unworn but even so, I removed and re-sealed them. Similarly, the crank was unworn and required only a polish. New bearings and rings and that was that. The engine had done 85,000 miles.

Ancillaries such as turbos and connecting pipes were replaced - after loads of aggro getting everything off. All wiring wrappings were replaced with Scapa tape.

The rebuild has taken 49 days - and I'm still not finished - although that has been evening and week-end work. Dismantling, diagnosing, sourcing parts, getting parts delivered and then rebuilding are time consuming.

Gird your loin particles.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Winter

[jonwat]

I had the heads exquisitely ported at Ultimate Performance, which included throat treatment, and then rebuilt them.

Ed,

After all your years of porting & rebuilding Lotus twin cam heads I'm surprised you didn't want to do this yourself???

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Many Thanks for the reality check Edward !

Removing the engine is as you know not exactly easy with all the right kit but like I said above in my earleir post working on a slope with the car on slabs with shingle between them and car reversed back on the outside of a single garage isnt easy. But I done it ! with some assistance ( my brother is an ex Lotus tech who used to carry out chassis changes etc etc on his own but working at the factory on Lotuses day in and day out took its toll !!)

Fortunately my cars engine/tranny ( apparently some do not have the rear trans body mod) came out horizontaly with no need to lift the transmission over the rear transom. Used a 2m sling from machinemart with some decent chain and for the rear, tied a length of heavy rope around the tail-end of the transmission. Again from machine mart, used a 250 kg chain ratchet lift to attach the rope to the lifting eye on the engine crane. Works a treat and engine can be tilted if required.

Reason for removing the engine is/was to repair broken exhaust manifold studs some of which have either sheared ( crap material/over tightening the stud nuts) or just fallen off due to corossion or ineffective lock tab washers.

Coolant feed to turbos also shot so will probably source some areoquip and fittings and make up a set of pipes for that. Other clearly evident issues are a aux belt tensioner that was ready to fall off and cam belts that appear to be a bit loose. The off side bank of cylinders cam belt could be removed quite easily with little pressure - obviously not going to do this for obvious reasons !!

Other issues are broken head sheilds ( Lotus, try tig welding stainless steel fixing to the stainless steel sheilds and save everyone a load of hassle) leaking rocker covers which has made a bit of a mess on the cylider bank flanks but on the plus side has resulted in a nice thick coating of oil over the rear chassis tubes. Looks like several tins of Gunk will be needed here !

Will also change engine mounts as these look tired and in addition have alook at the clutch and rear driveshaft seals which are leaking. Cam belts are to be changed and will also check out the idler bearings etc.

Engine ran reasonabily okay before removal although ther is a small amount of oil visable from the near side turbo intake. Car previously had seriously blocked cats so it could be the poor breathing caused some oil to be forced into the intake side of the air cleaner and turbo from the positive crankcase or valve area pressure.

Now I have the engine out, will do a leak down test and see how this fairs ( Lotus appear not to have any info on this so based on my previous knowledge of working on Rover and American V8 motors plus the odd Porsche 911 engine 2% is or should be permissable) Anyone know what the spec is this would be useful perhaps Mike or Guther ??

Like your car some of the rear harness needs tidying up and I note you have used scapa tape. Those of you who have ever been involved with Kit Cars will no that the magazines feature several pages of suppliers for inexpensive wiring/electrical items and also a useful source for things like P clips, rivets, riv nuts etc etc

On the subject of head porting ...........I have some extensively ported stage 3 heads on my TVR Chimaera which runs an Eaton Blower and in all honestly I dont he think the material removed and the effort required really made that much difference. Hope for your sake I am wrong with your Esprit though ?

As you have found ( or perhaps already knew) engine building is not just a matter of taking part a, attaching it to part b and then hoping for the best. Having built more than my fair share of engines I already have most of the tools required to carry out precise measurments so if my Esprit engine needs a rebuild then I will rebuild and blue print at the same time.

On the subject of rebuilds - I have seen Mikes work on this forum and from what i have seen he appears to know what he is doing. Costs are of course high but there is no such thing as a cheap engine rebuild and that a fact.

Anyway many thanks for sharing your experiences Edward and remember to take a asprin or paracetamol to calm your nerves before you go to fire up that engine for the first time. If you lay in bed thinking did I torque that, or check this............. its quite normal !

All the best and good luck with the install

Cheers

Paul

[Günter]

Paul -according to the manual: 'compression pressure' minimum is 10.7bar +/-1bar ...so if you want to try down the opposite way with 'pressure hold test'-over time ..it should work as on every other car ?!

good thing with the external pressured 'leak test' -you can position the piston via the crank rotation on the *compression-stroke* in different hights -this should give an impression on faults within different hight on the liner. By using the ordinary 'compression test' method you only guess *is there an leak?*, but you will not know exactly if it is valves or liner/piston ring.. .

[Winter]

Your experiences mirror mine.

I finally got the engine to fire up this evening. The connectors for the throttle position and cam sensor are identical and immediately adjacent. It's easy to get them mixed up, have no spark on cranking and then spend a couple of hours head scratching. The OBDII "tps fully open" report when the engine was turning over on the starter finally revealed the error of my ways. Now for the bleeding and topping up of fluids and perhaps a road test this weekend.

I haven't done a full and detailed total but I reckon I have spent the best part of £6,000 - and I didn't need new pistons or liners and reused the previous cam followers and all bar two of the valves. I spent a lot on tools (approx £2,000) but they were worth (just about) every penny.

[mike_sekinger]

On the subject of rebuilds - I have seen Mikes work on this forum and from what i have seen he appears to know what he is doing.

Wow - that is extremely gracious of you

Well done Edward for getting her started. I can imagine the happiness and relief you would have felt when she first fired-up.

Cheers,

Mike S

Edited May 28, 2010 by mike_sekinger

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Many thanks for the info etc Mike, Gunther and Edward.

Still removing rusted up ex manifold studs .............amazing since they were so corroded nothing could be used in the way of spanner or socket to get them off, Sharp chisel did the trick and will use this same method for removing whats left of the turbo to manifold nuts when I get each of the manifold/tubo assemblies off.

EGR pipe completely rusted through and water pipes to turbo totally U/S. A few broken studs (stainless steel !!) look as though they are going to be bastards to remove. If therer is any stud left protruding it will be weld on a larger diameter nut as this usualy works or failing that, a Cobalt tipped drill should suffice ( or 2 or 3) Dont have much time for the ezze out tools as they usualy snap off and then this creates even more problems.

Will no doubt be posting more querries later ( after lookin gfor previous threads)

Cheers

Paul

[mike_sekinger]

Hi Paul,

Good that you´re making progress.

I had a brief exchange with Geoff from Esprit Engineering today about manifold removal in-situ. His experience was, that under certain favourable conditions it was possible. Pre-requisites were:

- easy removal of turbo

- remove engine mount leg

- remove water feed to turbo

- good condition of manifold nuts

- no broken manifold studs (as these cannot be fixed in situ)

It was intersting for me to hear that he had at least managed it successfully under these conditions.

On the topic of EGR - I don´t know how you feel, but I´d suggest ditching the EGR and secondary air injection. The UK emissions don´t need it and it gets a lot of unnecessary clutter out of the way.

You just need to block the SAI gallery in the LH head and block the EGR port in the EGR manifold and LH exhaust manifold.

Cheers,

Mike S

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Many Thanks for the advise Mike,

Yes it makes sense to dispense with the EGR equipment as it has little function. Carried out a similar procedure on a 911Sc I had a few years back and on my Land Discovery 300 Tdi. Both vehicles seem to run better without the additional air "trick" that was dreamt up by manufactures to help with cleaner emissions !!

Must admit though, I hadnt considered this mod on the Esprit.

Currently researching timing belts or alternatives and I may have found something suitable for the early V8 which has 107 teeth and approx 10mm pitch. Honda Civic 1.5 L4 engine from approx 1990 ( apparently there are a few of these engines all with differing belt lenghts ) Found the info on the Dayco site which may cross ref with a Gates part. Probably about a £10 each and not the £89.95 each quoted

Will need to carry out some further research as to suitability, ie tooth shape, belt length, pitch and material so if anyone out there reads this ..............please dont go out and buy the belts as it could result in premature failure.

PS - my belts look fine but the right hand bank tensioners seem to be less than it should, or at least when comparred to the left bank. Just ordered some 4.2 & 4.7mm Long drills from Cromwell Tools which should do the cam tolerance and setting part of the job and its then a case of found some bar to machine a slot to act as the crank position pin.

The more I dismantle the more replacement parts are added to the infinite list !!!

Cheers

Paul

[Günter]

the way with *drills* works, that's for sure ..the round bar -with a square cut in the middle works too ... But mention that the tension setting process is done on different crank angles, so if one side is on the *tight* position the other could look like it is to loose for corect fitment. Ceep that in mind for your inspection as you already mentioned 'one side is to slack' ?!

Keep in mind that the belt tension is tested on different crank positions -so if one side is tight , the other can be on a 'slack' position ...as you already mentioned 'one side is to loose compared with the other' ..the way with drills works , that's confirmed and the round bar with ba square-cut in the middle too..

for example, ask this europe general importer on any 'gates related' stuff ...just use the original *Gates* cambelt reference numbers...

Maybe it works for a reference/replacement.. http://www.wae-berlin.de/#p1

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Thanks for that info Gunther.......I hadnt considered the belt tension would be different at different angles which of course makes sense........Working on too many cross plane V8's with single camshafts makes you blinkered and of course the Lotus is a completely different configuration and couldnt be more different.

Regarding the timing belts ..............the Lotus Part # C918 etc etc is not listed on the Gates website so I assume they ( Gates ) have some deal going with Lotus ? The Honda Timing Belt is about £15 which multiplied by a factor of 6 would give a Lotus price ( £90) . Dayco List them and I think Goodyear also do a stanadrd and uprated race belt but still waiting to hear from the technical bods about the profiel of the teeth

If I can find an alternative like I said in my earlier posting I will keep all informed

Cheers

Paul

[Günter]

Mike used an 'different' type of Gates timing belt on some of the engine rebuilds -and as it is not Lotus OEM with that 'stiffer blue backside' his Gates part-number should be good for reference ?! ....and, of course -you can always contact some of the Gates general-importers (as for example the one in the link above..) and ask them on that.

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Hello All and thanks for your input Gunter.

I havent responded for a few days since work and other commitments have prevented me getting on with the partial striping of the engine.

Managed to chisel off the bastard turbo to exhaust nuts and stangely enough when removing the turbo and manifold assemblies, the right hand turbo has a fair bit of engine oil which I managed to tip over the garage floor. This happened since i didnt expect oil to be there in the first place !!.

What I am thinking is.............. when the right hand cat was blocked ( since replaced with 200 cel cats) excessive crankcase pressure and generaly poor breathing ( read..... athesmatic) must have forced oil from the left side air cleaner somehow. The left side air box had some evidence of engine oil ( not much) but comparred to the right hand side, this was as dry as a dry thing.

Since it appears the left side air intake feeds the right side cylinders then this may explain the excessive amount of oil in the right side turbo. The turbo impellers look fine and no excessive paly in the shaft/bearing so wouldnt have thought the seals had gone. Wastegate capsules are free but look very coroded so will probably change these whilst the engine is out.

Total of 6 broken exhaust studs so just as well the engine was removed. I have read a few threads on hear were people have successfuly drilled these out with the engine in-situ. All I can say is they must be double jointed or been watch soem David Copperfield Illusion thing because I cant see how this can be done...........its an arse of a job witht he engien out ............you know, making sure you drill perpendicular to the head surface and getting a centre punch dead in the middle.......

The first two studs were broken off below the head surface and I have managed to drill these out so wil need a helicoil kit to sort this out.................big mistake.

The other four studs, two of which were broken off "down the hole" were removed by welding. I hadnt thought of it before so this is what I did.

Built up the weld a few tacks at a time until what i had looked a bit like a mini volcano. Because the mig wire wont arc on aluminium you can weld close to it without any fear of welding the stud to the cylinder head material. Next, I placed a large nut over the "volcano" and welded the nut to this. The nut gets red hot but in so doing breaks the seal of the loctite that was used to lock the stud in place originaly .

Let it cool for a few minutes, then spray with WD 40 and start to remove the stud. Tighten half a turn and then release 1 full turn ...............did 2 of these inside 20 minutes which compares to the two hours spent drilling out the other studs with cobalt tipped drills and its going to take more work and messing about to get the job done right. No stockist for 8mm helicoils around here so ordered on line so get on with this when the helicoils eventualy get here.

Next job was to remove the transaxle ..............fairly strightforward so will inspect clutch assembly while this is off. Other than drive shaft oil leaks, there appears to be a lot of play in the input shaft, and the splines were lightly corroded. Could explain the reverse gear issue which seemed to be okay one day and a bastard to engage the next ............perhaps try checking to see if the clutch plates move back and forth as they should

Next job to look at is the turbo coolant and oil feed pipes. I have a few trade contacts for this stuff so will see how much a set of these is going to cost.

Dont know if anyone out there has any idea of the banjo and fitting sizes as I am sure they look different to metric ..........could be JIC, Army and Navy, NPTS or NPTT or some other odd ball thread rate

On the subject of timing belts .........Seems as though Gates do not list a timing/cam belt for the Esprit V8 but the ones I have on my Esprit have Gates Powergrip marked on them. As I said before it seems as thought the Hondas Civic Belt is identical so will use this on my 106 Tooth Engine............apparently there is 107 tooth version as well for some reason. Apparently Goodyear list a belt @ £30 ish including postage but have heard a few nasties about these so not keen to use.

Anyway............thanks for taking the time to read this and if anyones got anything useful to add please do ( doesnt looka s though I will be at Snet for the 20th Lots bash at least not in the Esprit

Cheers

Paul

[mike_sekinger]

Hi Paul,

Good to see you making progress.

I dug out an email from a guy who helped me source the parts to make up replacement hoses. This is what we needed when moving to -6 fittings:

10 x 90 Deg steel hose ends

6 x 12x1.5mm to -6 male male adaptors

4 x 14x1.5mm to -6 male male adaptors

2 x 90 Deg aluminium hose ends (red and blue)

2 x Straight aluminium hose ends (red and blue)

1 x Aluminium push on connector

1 x Aluminium T Piece (blue)

4 x -6 Crush washers

6 x -5 Copper washers

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Mike S

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Hi Mike, thats brilliant !! and will save much time messing about.

Unfortunately my coolant pipes have disintegrated so I cant use these as a pattern for lenght but now I have the union and banjo sizes I can get the aeroquip pipes made up. I saw a picture of one of your engines with the stainless braided pipes and this has inspired me to spend a few quid on my engine.

So when I tell her indoors no Barbados holiday this year she will understand when she sees those nice areoquip fittings and pipe work !!

Thanks again for that Mike, most appriciated

Cheers

Paul