Gearbox upgrades

[Stuart]

So from what I know, and that is very little. There are a few different options offered up to us if we want to keep the current Renault box.

Derek Bells unit

GTO Engineering

Holloway Performance in collaboration with Derek Bell

All three are options for keeping a helical cut gearbox but imporving it.

From what I have read they all do a similar job of removing the 5th gear overhang weakness and that of the 1st motion shaft.

So what is the real difference with these units in how they achieve this?

I know that a lot of time and energy, not to mention money has been invested in the development of these upgrades, I just want to make sure that as a customer I (we) get the best units for our application, as for most of us it will be down to the advice on this forum that swings our opinions as much as cost.

Sorry if this seems blatantly obvious to some of you, but I am sure there are those out there who are in the same position as I am, ie. Stuck about which I opt for when I finally get this upgrade done.

Cheers guys

Stuart.

Edited September 21, 2007 by Stuart

[Günter]

as far as i understand the difference is in the optionals! what is important ... .

is it necessary to modify the gearbox housing yes/no-(bearing diameter);

the type of steel used;

optional Ford spline available yes/no

is it available as DIY kit, or only "in house production"

Edited September 21, 2007 by G

[Vulcan Grey]

GTO Engineering's website is dead, has been for weeks... Their email address bounces immediately.

[hasuSan]

I think the key is fitment!

I'm sure the key difference between the 3 are:

GTO been proven, it will fit and works.

Bell is the same....maybe.

Halloway, new shaft on the block, new engineering co. who will develop the shaft/gears.

Fitment is the big issue..Type of metal material is also the key.

GTO said theirs can take a lot of pounding....but how much ????

Halloway might produce a good product or strong material...who knows, could be a bust too.

So, its over $4,000 US. Someone has to make a decision....I'm sure my wife will not.

Warranty....

I don't know how much warranty from GTO .

Halloway has only 3 mos. Installation alone during winter will probably

eat your 3 mos.....brrrrrrrrrrrr below zero, I can't move that cold. By the time you

test the car, 3 mos is over...good luck flip the coin!

[Vulcan Grey]

I think the key is fitment!

I'm sure the key difference between the 3 are:

GTO been proven, it will fit and works.

Bell is the same....maybe.

Halloway, new shaft on the block, new engineering co. who will develop the shaft/gears.

Fitment is the big issue..Type of metal material is also the key.

GTO said theirs can take a lot of pounding....but how much ????

Halloway might produce a good product or strong material...who knows, could be a bust too.

So, its over $4,000 US. Someone has to make a decision....I'm sure my wife will not.

Warranty....

I don't know how much warranty from GTO .

Halloway has only 3 mos. Installation alone during winter will probably

eat your 3 mos.....brrrrrrrrrrrr below zero, I can't move that cold. By the time you

test the car, 3 mos is over...good luck flip the coin!

I'm not sure you read my post above...

I don't think GTO is an option anymore, I don't think GTO exists anymore...

[hasuSan]

I'm not sure you read my post above...

I don't think GTO is an option anymore, I don't think GTO exists anymore...

I just spoke to Kevin, and mentioned his website.

He gave me a bunch of pricing....by the way.

He said, he is very very busy and don't have time to fix his website problem.

Nothing is wrong with his business. Why did you think they belly up?

[outtamyway]

So from what I know, and that is very little. There are a few different options offered up to us if we want to keep the current Renault box.

Derek Bells unit

GTO Engineering

Holloway Performance in collaboration with Derek Bell

All three are options for keeping a helical cut gearbox but imporving it.

From what I have read they all do a similar job of removing the 5th gear overhang weakness and that of the 1st motion shaft.

So what is the real difference with these units in how they achieve this?

I know that a lot of time and energy, not to mention money has been invested in the development of these upgrades, I just want to make sure that as a customer I (we) get the best units for our application, as for most of us it will be down to the advice on this forum that swings our opinions as much as cost.

Sorry if this seems blatantly obvious to some of you, but I am sure there are those out there who are in the same position as I am, ie. Stuck about which I opt for when I finally get this upgrade done.

Cheers guys

Stuart.

Isn't the ring and pinion as likely to fail? What are the options for a stronger ring and pinion to compliment the improved shafts? Of course then there are the half shafts to consider. Where does it end?

[Vulcan Grey]

I just spoke to Kevin, and mentioned his website.

He gave me a bunch of pricing....by the way.

He said, he is very very busy and don't have time to fix his website problem.

Nothing is wrong with his business. Why did you think they belly up?

Well dead website, plus dead email...

Does he still have the Quaife LSD for

[neal]

Warranty....

I don't know how much warranty from GTO .

Halloway has only 3 mos. Installation alone during winter will probably

eat your 3 mos.....brrrrrrrrrrrr below zero, I can't move that cold. By the time you

test the car, 3 mos is over...good luck flip the coin!

Yeah, it's interesting that.

In the UK, if you're a retailer (i.e. new parts as opposed to second hand 'sold as seen') you're obliged to give 12 months warranty. Likewise any service work is guaranteed for 12 months (wear and tear excepted obviously).

I not sure how that applies to imports to the UK (in the same way as I believe different states in the US have different requirements).

3 months? Particularly with it approaching winter and the cars won't be run much, and the fact that this is the 'first batch', you'd expect some latitude from Holloway. There's bound to be teething problems, and if their reaction is 'well your three months is up', and the fact that the Esprit community is so close knit it will spread like wildfire and the demand will dry up overnight.

Which is a shame for everyone. Esprit owners, in that another source of UN1 longevity is lost. Derek Bell for devoting his time in trying to resurrect his project through no fault of his own (Jack Knight going tits up). And Holloway - there's huge potential for this upgrade, not just the Esprit owners, but GT40s, and in fact any longtitudal transaxle car...

[hasuSan]

Isn't the ring and pinion as likely to fail? What are the options for a stronger ring and pinion to compliment the improved shafts? Of course then there are the half shafts to consider. Where does it end?

Well, just like anything else...if you push and push it'll never end and break somewhere. But its been known there was issue in the tranny....so why not fix it and upgrade it? When I got my V8, the 2nd gear is already going. I need to replace the synchro & might as well spend once and do everything.

"Well dead website, plus dead email...

Does he still have the Quaife LSD for

Edited September 22, 2007 by HASUsan

[actwon]

I'm leaning toward buying his (GTO) UN1 upgrade because of proven fitment.

Trying to convince myself to give Halloway a chance....but for $4,000 its hard to make a decision.

The warranty seems to be the issue for me. I don't mind to pay $4,000 and 3mos warranty if the fitment and testing has been done by Halloway. We are the guinea pig!!

Beside the $4,000 you have to make a decision replacing your clutch unit, synchros or maybe install a quaife. The amount will quickly jump to $7,000 or more. Its not an easy decision to make. I rather get the proven design.

I have GTO Engineering's Ring and Pinion installed in my car. It is great. Definitely stronger than the stock one. As I have done business with him before I am very certain that I will do business with them again. Especially since I can get the tranny upgrade and a Quaife for ~4500 with the exchange rate.

[toyroom]

I don't think I have ever dealt with a guy like Kevin from GTO! Not any where often enough, anyway. He is the most trusting and trustworthy guy I have ever met on the seven year winding road journey of Esprit ownership. Nothing is too much trouble or too much of a problem. Nearly aleays available by phone, totally competent, entertainingly cynical and yet strangely tolerant of ignorance. Why he bothers with guys like us when his clients include the ones they do ( "One of these days I'm going to tear you into little pieces" and Tentenths are the only clues I'm giving !) There is nothing wrong with his mobile (which he always answers if he is in the country)

I don't think I could recommend Kevin or his gearbox highly enough. Send a PM for any specific questions and checkout "Gearbox story" on here or on pistonheads for the full story why you have to be very careful who fits your gearbox once it is built !!

Here is an extract from the great gearbox debacle:

I finally got the car back a couple of weeks ago. A long story which would have been much, much shorter if I had been slightly more patient!

Basically, it's been seriously upgraded but I should have sent the whole car to Kevin instead of just the gearbox ! Unfortunately the guys who put the new 'box on the car busted the input shaft and the clutch. Not their fault, the new gearbox is much harder to fit and the dealers see so few cars nowadays that they could be forgiven for having to refer to the manual now and again !

The new gearbox has a seriously beefed up one piece input shaft; taller first gear, taller final drive; dropped fifth and much closer ratios in general.

It also has a quaife torque biasing limited slip differential.

The practical upshot is that the sudden surge in first gear has gone with wheelspin well controlled by the diff. The 0 to 60 has probably increased by a second but all other acceleration is now seriously improved as the engine doesn't drop way down the power curve every time you change gear ! In other words, the mostly redundant dash to 30 mph is less violent, but all the useful 20 to 80 stuff is loads better.

It also means that changing gear in everyday situations happens a lot less. It does 60mph in first !!

Kevin, who did the rebuild was without doubt the hero of the piece, going well beyond the call of duty to ensure customer satisfaction. If what he said is true, and it's likely, and most Esprit V8s will need a gearbox at some point mid-life, he is definitely the guy to ask. His client list reads like a who's who of car enthusiasts.

Any questions ?

Mail me direct if you want any detailed stuff.

Ratios: old new old final new final old mph new mph

1st 3.36 2.66 13.07 9.15 37 60

2nd 2.06 1.75 8.01 6.02 61 90

3rd 1.38 1.38 5.37 4.75 91 115

4th 1.04 1.04 3.68 3.58 121 150

5th 0.76 0.82 2.96 2.82 165(!)* 199

final 3.89 3.44

reverse 3.54 3.54

assume engine max revs = 6,500 rpm

The figures in the bottom right show how much headroom there is for tuning. 500 bhp is very easy in these cars but no use if the gearbox was built for 250 bhp! The new gearbox is much much stroger and should survive the standard 350 with ease, but would take a lot more.

* If this is true, there's been some fibbing in the spec sheets. I am not totally convinced of my figures for the standard car, are they correct ? Am I assuming a red line too low ??

Anyway, I hope this answers the question: What will I do when the gearbox goes ?! The fault with mine was the second gear synchro....BUT... the input shaft was cracked (

[Tony94S4]

Did anyone use the halloway performance kit yet?

and also is there a good email to reach gto?

just finished my rx7 fd project so I started working back

on the s4, I am almost finished with my twin disk clutch setup,

I need to get me a stronger gearbox kit asap before I can put every thing

back togeather,

so can u please share ur experiance with any kits u r using & price u spend so

it will help make my decision

with atb I hope I can fit it under under $5k. my labor, but will be hard with the exchange rate

also I read in past some gt40 guys made their own primary shafts for much less,

thanx in advance

tony

[chstephens]

Did anyone use the halloway performance kit yet?

Tony

I have not yet released the Holloway Performance UN1 kit so no one has it installed. The delay: upon completion of heat treating the primary shafts, we had them magnafluxed and they did not pass QA standards. All primary shafts are being cut again from new alloy. Bottom line, the manufacturer (EMCO) knows how the parts should be machined, QA'd and assembled.

I am sure the GTO kit is first rate and I am confident that the Holloway Performance kit will also be the highest quality. The manufacturer, EMCO Gears in the US, is a race only supplier that I have formed a relationship with for the UN1 upgrade. EMCO supplies gearboxes for IRL, NASCAR, American Lemans and Rolex series. In fact, every one of their gearboxes (6 total) completed the 24 hours at Daytona in February with no failures, including 1st place in GT class (black Mazda Rx-8).

I respect everyone's decision to wait for others to experience and comment on the kit. I hope to get it in my 2001 Esprit soon. I do have many of the kits pre-purchased so the feedback should be coming in the next months.

Kind regards, Craig

[Tony94S4]

Craig,

thanx for the response,

Emco gears they r based in IL I belive,

Ive heard nothing but good about them

dont they have a transmission dyno in their

facility?

if they do I belive they can push test few hundred

pounds of torque through each axle r u planing to do that?

roughfly how much longer will it take for production?

I also have 2 lotus un1 boxes one in good shape one rebuild

I can loan u one for testing If I can get a break on the test kit

I am getting ready to put the car togeather but I plan to push

lots of power through it, I exploded 2 s4s pressure plates so now

I am building spec twin disk setup so the next weak link will

probably fail

thanx again

tony

[chstephens]

Craig,

thanx for the response,

Emco gears they r based in IL I belive,

Ive heard nothing but good about them

dont they have a transmission dyno in their

facility?

roughfly how much longer will it take for production?

Yes - EMCO is based in Chicago and they sponsor a Mid-Ohio Lemans race in the summer; this might be how you have heard of them.

They do have a dyno but I do not plan on investing in the test at this point. This project is costing me a small fortune (and as a hobby; call me crazy!).

EMCO has confidence that the design and strength of the shaft will cause the axle to break before the primary shaft goes....not that anyone wants a broken half shaft/axle.

I am now expecting availability in mid-late May. Good news for those that want to take it to the track!

Craig

[Günter]

so hopfully the project goes to the finish line before the Euro lost his benefit... B)

I'm still undecided witch way to go, GTO*Derek Bell* or that Emco production. But you said it is not planned to offer a input shaft version for cheaper (Ford-)clutches in your design/concept. Right ?

[chstephens]

[quote name='G

[Günter]

it's just a question of how cheap it is , in relation to the pound sterling price of Derek's kit . I don't know exactly how many European owners want to upgrade the system. As i self run with a "partly" cracked shaft for the last years. And it is still working... .

I only know one owner with the totally different 6 speed box (from "R&B") , so the market is fairly limited for you ?!

[Paula&Marcus]

Come on G

[Günter]

not so fast young man! First thing is to get new bushings and a full geometry set-up. Next is timing belt, than we can go to gearbox and clutch. So that's the way up to the next years... .

By the way, 'we' hadn't such high power machinery in the past. So it is not much useful material available from that. I do use more from Italian (Fiat/Iveco) truck industry for my project working... .

PS. the Ford/ZF steering servo pump is still in use , fits good into the 918 pump bracket

Edited March 27, 2008 by G