V8 with Ethanol

[t70]

when you run on 4 cylinders.. it runs smooth.... then you run on the other 4 and it runs smooth.... but it won't run on 8... you've got fuel flow issues. How's your fuel pressure? I know that I'm famous for checking fuel filters and pumps... but i would, especially with the possibility of water being involved. Also, the suction line to the fuel pump is at a rather steep curve... it may be collapsed. So, check that too...

[Günter]

thanks for advise! Will check the fuel filter, as it is known for problems with old dirt if you swap over to E85-fuel .

PS. The V8 does not have the separate inline-fuel pump as the '88 4pot .

Is an intank twin type pump (primary and secondary together on start, and also together powered up on full boost)

[t70]

ahhh i see... interesting.. woops

[Günter]

I'm back on the road -but don't know how long it will last. Just to many points who need my atttention... .

[kyliesmith.com]

Nice work Gunter, keep posting up progress pics!!

[Günter]

Kylie, that is not nice work. More like work in "field service mode" . I'm a mechanic but the technical options around me are not god enough. Cant even open an engine, because you need clean ares for doing that type of work... .

[Günter]

so what's new, one month later: i have managed to fit those metal core catalysts into the original casing. I have also added sound insulation in the silencer -as the exhaust silencer was also empty. Some broken/rusty bits and a hand full of steel wool in it. I used some stone/mineral wool from an hardware-store and filled up the complete silencer. It's really quiet now :-)

The best point is that the car runs smooth again (with the changed O2 Sensors) .

One full fuel-tank (69.8L on the receipt) lasts for 445km ! That is fantastic , as it was not on a fuel consumption friendly style driven. The engine was running during red traffic lights, and also with short sprints from road crossing to road crossing. It's was more like a "young and wild" style. But if you look into the Lotus Workshop book , it says 20L petrol in urban condition !

I always wounder how the test-drivers reached that mark ... ??

[peter_england99]

Gunter,

Which O2 sensors did you use?

Gruss/Regards,

Peter.

[Günter]

in the the same way as on left side some time in the past

- improvised with the unused one from the post Kat position!

I don't know how long the calculated lifetime from the Lotus OEM parts is. As it was the same case some time ago with illogical idling and rubbish data-logs on LH side, i was using ordinary petrol. So i don't think it is related to my ethanol stuff.

But it could even be possible, that a part of the blown out ceramic catalyst from RH has hit the sensor and broken the internals... .

"official" O2-sensors (with the right connector face) are still available from "R&B" and also from Marcus. The others from the free aftermarket sector (for example UNI-Fit Katalysatoren GmbH) have sensors with blank ends available, so you need to refit your original connector from the Lotus sensor.

[Günter]

update: passed the German MOT (called 'T

[esprits4de]

brilliant work!

Still......

lets enjoy what we can off this fossile fuel as it is deminished day by day !

[Günter]

bud for my car, with it's stock settings it isn't an big improvement now. OK, i does run smother (but needs a bit more time to accelerate), and sounds as an "young car" again. The only thing practical for me is: i have two local fuel station for E85 in my area, and i can use ordinary petrol if available.

..and yes, Shell-Optimax with its 106 octane rating is now available for up to 1.50-1.60 Euros/L , ordinary 98 octane (as recommended by Lotus for the V8) is up to 1.50/L and my E85 is still 98.9cents/L -so even with an additional 20% more fuel for sufficient performance/consumption calculation I'm good in the range... B)

PS. what i still don't know is how long the engine will last. I try everything to prevent any lean (to lean) combustion with it's high combustion temperatures. What i have canceled now is the pre-catalyst arrangement. As some of you know, i updated my car with metal (race)catalysts, instead of the broken ceramic originals. Bud after around 1000km one of the small 98mm catalysts glowed out his life. Was highly impressive as i have inspected it , and it was an globular melting with an 50mm diameter just in the center of the catalyst. The front and rear side was untouched and looked as new. I think the reaction temperature of this catalyst, together with the position so near on the engine was a bit much for it... . Now it runs only with two 120mm (200cell) metal catalysts, one in each original 'big section' of the original catalysts housing.

Edited August 10, 2008 by G

[Günter]

as mentioned in I'm back on the way with more experiments on my E85 project. The spark-plugs are not perfect and only have got a little cleanup but I will use them to start the next experiments (*startup* on cold winter temperatures) with more realistic conditions. Everyone can see that the spark plugs are old, with some gas-leaking marks on the insulator section. In most cases you would not have all around new parts like spark-plugs an so on in older engines. If it works well within the next weeks I can be sure that it will always work, even in some years if the renewed engine get more miles on it... .

There is no black-box 'caught in the loop' system in use. Instead of that i try it on a little different ways now. Who can spot the improved detail !? OK, an other interesting point will be the fuel-trim reading via the OBD port. Especially under petrol use, or slightly higher petrol concentrations in the mixture. The 8 injectors are meant normally (under petrol) for around 500hp I guess. So I'm not sure what the ECM mapping can regulate under this circumstances... .

[Günter]

after some fighting against freezing fingers, and a really cold engine block - I managed to refit all the engine-parts. The engine does start from icy-conditions with the 380ccm injectors. The only DTC I've got in the system permanently seems to be the P0116 engine-temperature/water sensor fault. The ECM does go on CL after it runs for a wile and the car was driven around the corner in 1th & 2th gear. It was all done on petrol -now i need to change the fuel in the tanks, and try it again with pure E85 from the fuel station.

After the engine was starting and reeving up I did an diagnostic check. So if someone wants to get the *Log-files & associated documents..just give me a note. Think it will be interesting to see the short/long-fuel trim, and other timing references in opposite to the stock setup later on.

[peter_england99]

[quote name='G

[Günter]

on my former pictures, posted in this board there was an wild wiring on every injector. Now there is only the original engine-harness connector fitted, but on an different (380ccm, in smaller shape..) injector. The Rochester injectors are not in use for those experiments anymore... .

[Günter]

update for today: It was now possible to clear the engine-temp. *out of range*-DTC.

With some external laboratory thermometers I have verified the real water/air temperature differences. But it is still to cold out there to do more work..

[Günter]

update for April#

I have an Event-tour comming, so as mentioned in other discussions:

-for a more refined *mpg-range* (even with WOT and Kick-down driving) I have to undo the 380ccm injectors for now ....and back with the Lotus-OEM into the engine... as said, just for now

(Target for future tests is some Opel injectors from the still modern 2L-turbo engine family (Opel-speedster) ...should fit more the needs with around 300ccm on 3bar fuel-pressure ?! )

...bad thing is, after intitialising of pressure in the system -there is a spilling on the fuel-feed for the Nb.4 injector. So I have to inspect for a possible damage or misplacing of the O-ring -good thing, or lets say some sort of enjoyment: the engine-bay is seriously smelling 'antiseptic' ...oh man, this ethanol fuel is making me giggle

[Tony94S4]

Gunter,

R u using any ethanol content guage for the fuel,

not sure about germany but here in the states we

have winter and summer blend of e85,

and its not to cnsistent in the stations,

so when I tune on a winter mix wich is around E70 on

summer blend e85 the car goes lean so risk of detonation

or melting things on cruise can happen

Also u can run much more timing with E85, do u have a way to do that?

that will bring the egt's down and improve ur gas milege

[Günter]

Tony, right I'm using any mixture ...just as it comes out on the fuel station ..or as it is mixed after nessesary refilling. What means I have to think about good compromises !

So my thoughts:

as long as my ECM and the compression is in 'stock condition' there is nothing with improvemend on terms of real power !

[OK, to be fair -I have the usual alluminium FORGE wastegate actuators with yellow spring, set-up on the lowest possible pressure now..]

What I do is run on ordinary E85 from my local station, or any mixture depending on refilling with ordinary 95-Roz fuel from other stations on my way. That's why I have to find a good compromise between 'injector-size' and 'injector-timing' [short/long term trim]... .

With my stock Rochester injectors and an E85 fuel-blend the engine was not able to go on the 'safe condition 0.9volts' on the O2-sensors on WOT. Rich mixture would mean it is still not running to hot (melting pistons, you know it..) -I have tested that on full speed on our German motorways (don't call the police)

With the first option: black boxes added into the injector driver harness the car was running OK on E85 [driving conditions tested via OBD real time monitoring..], but slightly to rich sometimes on higher 95Roz fuel-mixtures after refilling. And the WOT reaction time, or lets say *kick down* reaction was not acurate in time with blackbox & E85... .

So I tested the 'bigger size injectors' option: But could only manage to get my hands on 380ccm/min[3bar] injectors with high Ohms. Those feel good on pure E85 from the fuel station, but as soon as the mixture is more like ordinary petrol after refilling the car was 'overfilled' ..or lets say to rich for a good smooth acceleration. Mention that everytime after you hit the loud pedal to far or to fast (around 3800rpm...or slightly after 4000rpm) the car is running on 10 injectors !

What means if you can only buy 380ccm injectors (wich would be good as single use in the engine for 400HP on petrol, I think) ..you have to block/override or cancel the feed for the two plenum injectors. I have unplugged the injectors drive wiring on those and car was running smooth as stock , with E85 and with pure petrol ....but as soon as the pedal goes to fast down in the footwell or you rev-up behind the 4000rpm mark an CEL is set for mentioning that the driver circuit is open on Nb. 9 & 10 !!

So all in all, for ordinary driving and good compromise between acceleration characteristics, combustion temperatures/exhaust temperature -keep in mind the healthy temp.-range for the catalyst!, gas mileage and possible fault codes you have some different options:

Higher fuel pressure/adjustable fuel pressure: -to run still with stock injectors and use the ECM ability to calculate the short/long term trim percentage up & down within the stock data tables in the Eprom.

Additional black-boxes: -to stretch the injection timing as far as possible (mention that with stock injectors on E85 and WOT /in high rpm range the nessesary timing can mean that the injectors are open even if the 'time window' in the ECM 'injection pulse' mapping and the cranking/valve position is not as it should...) so the inlet port is filled with fuel spray a lot, and if you change your mind and you slow down the engine gets to much fuel into it ...you can see that especially if you're not allways running on E85 and you inspect the sparkplugs and tailpipes on the exhaust .

Use of bigger injectors: -but mention that the injector size should be a good compromise between 354HP calculated on E85 and calculated on 95/98Roz petrol. And in some points you have to mention that there is an additional injector drive circuit , activated by the ECM mapping (most say 'to cool the engine/combustion down' as for the lack of charge-cooling ?!) ...so you have to reduce the main-injector size to stay withing the mapping calculation. Or otherwise you have to remap the ECM and delete the additional plenum injector drive ...or as I have to do it if all other fails (as for 'keep all programming stock') imitate the injector wiring on the connector, or override the fuel feed to the additional injectors with a handbuild fuel line between the two rails.

Look into my Elise/Renault fuel feed connector topic ...(looks like you can use the AC-Delco 10mm fuel connectors , the same as on the Elise fuel pump ! )

*sidenote:

the problem with the damaged O-ring on the Rochester injector is solved for free -I have got a replacement for the damaged Elise (Rover 1.8K engine) inlet manifold -plus injector rail and injectors some time ago ...so there are 8 unused injectors and I simply use one of those O-rings now

[Günter]

update:

fuel-trim reset , by unplugging of the battery... . brake pads in front end replaced, overflow hose for the coolant reservour changed ..and finally *test run* and 'engine relearn' process done on the motorway.

So I'm on ordinary petrol temporarly -just for the meant important *mpg*-range next weekend of course.. .

Happy motoring for all !