wastegate capsules

[mike733]

Where can I get new and improved wastegate capsules? I can't seem to find them when I search.

[kyliesmith.com]

PUK Esprit racing

There are listed here: http://freudhoefer.de/lotus/esprit/

Marcus will sort you out

[BusaNostra]

I used this

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant...tegory_Code=WGT

excellent!!

[act2007]

Try dynamicracing1.com

Alan

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi All, Hi Mike,

Like pointed out many many times before its important that you choose a type of capsules for the V8 that is able to start moving around 0.35 bar !!!

If you choose one that is not starting to move below 0,82 bar (= 12psi) you will completely loose the ECU-boost-control in the range between 0.35-0.82 bar !

Of course you will also loose the ECU-boost-control safety level (=0.35 bar) if something goes wrong ... very risky !

IHMO, not a too good idea.

A proper wastegate capsule for the V8 should be able to get adjusted to 0.35-0.4 bar base setting (= point where it just begins to move open) AND should hold tight (against exhaust gas pressure) up to 0.8-1.0 bar boost.

Most capsules that meet the 0.35-0.4 bar opening specs are too weak when it comes to hold tight (like the stock Lotus ones).

Others that will hold tight up to 0.8-1.0 bar max boost will not be able to meet the 0.35-0.4 bar base setting for the V8 (the one mentioned above looks like one of these)

Cheers

Marcus

Edited October 25, 2007 by Paula&Marcus

[superdavelotus]

I wouldn't put steel ones on my V8 anymore, they will only last a few years where the turbos are positioned at the bottom of the engine, they will rot in no time. Go for alloy ones as Marcus suggested.

[mike733]

Will I benifit much from these without an ECU upgrade?

[mamovaka]

HOLY CHRIST YES!!!

I just installed them in my v8 w/ johan chip and exhaust and more moda yadayada

anyway..

FAST AS ALL LIVING HELL.. it is NOTICEABLY faster.. incredible.. they are set to start to open at 9psi and fully open at 12psi.. so about 3-4psi increase.. this as I understood is the maximum safe pressure..

F A S T A S H E L L

I LOVE IT!!!

[mike733]

How do you set them?

[mamovaka]

use a tool that forces air pressure into the capsule before you install it.. mine were already set.. I just had them tested.. at around 9psi you see it start to open and at 12 it's open all the way.. as long as it is completely open at 12 then you are set to go..

[gmendoza]

I know that I, as well as others on this forum, have suggested AGAINST upgrading the wastegates with the stock ECU & stock boost controller. The reason being, 12psi wastegates will result in more than 12psi of boost.

Recently I decided to get some real data to share what happens when you do this. I bypassed my Blitz boost controller, connected the stock boost controller and off I went to do some logging. My minimum mechanical boost is 8lbs (when they start tp open).

I logged consistently peak boost of 18psi leveling out to 15psi!!!!!!!!!!! This was done with water/meth injection which also helps with boost spikes. Without it spikes would have been worst. Yes the car felt awesome but I would not want to consistently be running that much boost on a car without any kind of intercooling.

I wasn't surprised by the results, I've even warned some people about this in the past but I've never seen any real numbers posted. So I decided to get some real numbers. Also the numbers would have been much worst with a higher base setting.

Edited October 27, 2007 by gmendoza

[mamovaka]

gmendoza.. however if you can test the capsules so that they are sure to be fully open at 12psi, you should be ok w/ a chip like the JOHAN ecu..

I tested the new ones before installing.. and it appears to start to open around 9psi then fully open at 12psi.. before I hooked them up to the car..

do you believe this is sufficient or should I do more testing?

[gmendoza]

gmendoza.. however if you can test the capsules so that they are sure to be fully open at 12psi, you should be ok w/ a chip like the JOHAN ecu..

I tested the new ones before installing.. and it appears to start to open around 9psi then fully open at 12psi.. before I hooked them up to the car..

do you believe this is sufficient or should I do more testing?

If your wategates start to open at 9psi (via hand pump) and you are using the stock boost controller, then I'm almost positive you are getting more than 12psi. Remember, the ECU is restricting the amout of boost the wastegates see by whatever percent to "fool" the wastegates into making 11-12psi expecting wastegates that open at 5psi. So it will take more than 9psi for your wastegates to see 9psi.

Now if you want to be positive of how much boost you are making, install a boost gauge.

Edited November 5, 2007 by gmendoza

[mamovaka]

If your wategates start to open at 9psi (via hand pump) and you are using the stock boost controller, then I'm almost positive you are getting more than 12psi. Remember, the ECU is restricting the amout of boost the wastegates see by whatever percent to "fool" the wastegates into making 11-12psi expecting wastegates that open at 5psi So it will take more than 9psi for your wastegates to see 9psi.

Now if you want to be positive of how much boost you are making, install a boost gauge.

even with johan's chip? are you sure about this?

If your wategates start to open at 9psi (via hand pump) and you are using the stock boost controller, then I'm almost positive you are getting more than 12psi. Remember, the ECU is restricting the amout of boost the wastegates see by whatever percent to "fool" the wastegates into making 11-12psi expecting wastegates that open at 5psi So it will take more than 9psi for your wastegates to see 9psi.

Now if you want to be positive of how much boost you are making, install a boost gauge.

my understanding is that regardless of what the ecu is doing.. the wastegates immediately open directly responding to the pressure on them.. is this wrong?

[gmendoza]

even with johan's chip? are you sure about this?

my understanding is that regardless of what the ecu is doing.. the wastegates immediately open directly responding to the pressure on them.. is this wrong?

Yes, the wastegates do open immediately directly responding to the pressure on them if there was no controller (boost solenoid) in line with the wastegates. But on the V8, they hardly ever see the actual boost pressure due to the stock boost controller being in-line with the wastegates reducing pressure to the wastegates. Pressure travels from the manifold to the stock boost controller to the wastegates. So the wastegates see less pressure than actual pressure resulting in more boost.

Edited November 5, 2007 by gmendoza

[scoule]

I'm a bit lost here - I thought the standard ECU / boost controller would bleed away pressure when it wants to allow more boost than the static capsule setting - so that the capsule stays shut.

Conversely, under conditions when the ECU wants to limit boost, it would not bleed pressure from the capsule feed and the capsule is then effectively receiving full engine boost levels and will open at its "static" setting.

Or does the ECU boost controller always bleed off a percentage of boost?!

[Paula&Marcus]

Steve,

What you are saying is absolutely correct !

Cheers

Marcus

I'm a bit lost here - I thought the standard ECU / boost controller would bleed away pressure when it wants to allow more boost than the static capsule setting - so that the capsule stays shut.

Conversely, under conditions when the ECU wants to limit boost, it would not bleed pressure from the capsule feed and the capsule is then effectively receiving full engine boost levels and will open at its "static" setting.

Or does the ECU boost controller always bleed off a percentage of boost?!

[mamovaka]

Now I am confused..

are you guys saying that with a stronger capsule that will start to open at 9psi and fully open at 12psi there is still more boost going through the engine? with Johan's chip? than the capsule is seeing? if this is the case then it stands to reason that regardless of a wastegate capsule upgrade the engine will be seeing more boost anyway via johan's chip no?

Edited November 6, 2007 by mamovaka

[Paula&Marcus]

As pointed out many many times, the capsules should begin moving (= starting to open) at 0.35-0.4 bar. This is the mechanical boost pressure which is important for the ECU and for the safety features. Everything higher than 0.35-0.4 bar is done by the ECU via boost valve (= solenoid in the boost control line)

If you install a harder capsule/actuator the ECU is not able to control boost in the region between 0.35-0.4 bar up to the pressure where your "wrong" capsule will start to move. And you will loose the 0.35-0.4 bar safety feature.

Marcus

Now I am confused..

are you guys saying that with a stronger capsule that will start to open at 9psi and fully open at 12psi there is still more boost going through the engine? with Johan's chip? than the capsule is seeing? if this is the case then it stands to reason that regardless of a wastegate capsule upgrade the engine will be seeing more boost anyway via johan's chip no?

[gmendoza]

Another way to look at it would be that by increasing your base boost, you also shift your boost curve. For example a V8's boost with stock wastegates will range from 5psi to 11psi with say 14psi spikes depending on conditions. Now on that same car if you install harder wastegates that increase the base boost to 9psi, then your boost will range from 9psi-14psi with 17psi spikes,

Edited November 6, 2007 by gmendoza

[mamovaka]

Just got off the phone with Johan about this.. and he doesn't seem to agree.. I wish he would chime in here..

Basically he says that the stock wastegate valve's are very weak and in conjunction with his chip the open at around 9psi (completely open, they start to open at 4-5)

now with his chip the chip is trying to get to 12psi but only hits it for a brief moment (if that) due to the weak wastegates opening at 9psi every time and letting boost out..

with the stronger wastegates they start to open at 9psi and completely open at 12psi.. which is in conjunction of his chip as well as the maximum recommended "SAFE" level in the car..

I wish there weren't so many strong views on this since Johan Michael and Claudius all seem to be in agreeance and some people here are not..

in any case the car is a beast and I get it dynoed tomorrow I will post results..

[gmendoza]

I'd be interested to see what it makes

[Paula&Marcus]

I will try to explain once again and again,

Johan is also right.

1. The basic setting for the V8 is 0.35-0.4 bar

2. This is also the safety setting if something goes wrong. If you override this, your engine is at risc.

3. Everything higher than 0.35-0.4 bar is done by the ECU/chip

4. The stock capsules will meet the base setting but usually are way TOO weak to hold tight higher than 0.6-0.7 bar

-> if you want to make it right then you need different capsules. BUT you need capsules that are not only stiffer. Thats the key here. You need capsules that will allow the 0.4 bar base setting and will still hold tight up to 0.8-1.0 bar

Marcus

Just got off the phone with Johan about this.. and he doesn't seem to agree.. I wish he would chime in here..

Basically he says that the stock wastegate valve's are very weak and in conjunction with his chip the open at around 9psi (completely open, they start to open at 4-5)

now with his chip the chip is trying to get to 12psi but only hits it for a brief moment (if that) due to the weak wastegates opening at 9psi every time and letting boost out..

with the stronger wastegates they start to open at 9psi and completely open at 12psi.. which is in conjunction of his chip as well as the maximum recommended "SAFE" level in the car..

I wish there weren't so many strong views on this since Johan Michael and Claudius all seem to be in agreeance and some people here are not..

in any case the car is a beast and I get it dynoed tomorrow I will post results..

[scoule]

I will try to explain once again and again,

Johan is also right.

1. The basic setting for the V8 is 0.35-0.4 bar

2. This is also the safety setting if something goes wrong. If you override this, your engine is at risc.

3. Everything higher than 0.35-0.4 bar is done by the ECU/chip

4. The stock capsules will meet the base setting but usually are way TOO weak to hold tight higher than 0.6-0.7 bar

-> if you want to make it right then you need different capsules. BUT you need capsules that are not only stiffer. Thats the key here. You need capsules that will allow the 0.4 bar base setting and will still hold tight up to 0.8-1.0 bar

Marcus

I wonder if some of the confusion is about where these pressures are acting .. Am I right to suggest that the 0.4 bar is the pressure applied to the capsule diaphragm needed to open the wastegate, whereas the target 0.8-1.0 bar is the pressure in the turbo acting on the wastage valve?

The ECU will bleed pressure away from the wastegate capsule preventing it opening until the desired boost level is reached - but in order for this to work, the valve must stay shut with up to 0.8-1.0 bar inside the turbo, otherwise, regardless of what the ECU is requesting, the valve is forced open by pressure in the turbo.

So, we need a capsule that can open the wastage with 0.4 bar applied to it for "safety", but will hold the wastgate shut with 0.8-1.0 bar inside the turbo .... correct? Do I get a free chip? ;-)

Edited November 7, 2007 by scoule

[mamovaka]

basically the only difference I see here is that the 12psi wastegate still affects the engine the same way as the weaker STOCK wastegate..

however the weaker one simply opens earlier and barely hits 12psi..(1 bar) where as the stronger wastegate will not fully open until (1bar)..

basically you are just getting more boost for a longer time.. but the same boost level is achieved with even the stock wastegate.. just for a moment though as opposed for as long as the ECU wants it to due to the new wastegate.

? I think this makes sense