S4 Not Producing boost over 60 KPA HELP!

[CarlC]

Ok, deep breath. I can understand your pain but there will be an answer out there. The people on here are excellent and will be invaluable to getting to the bottom of this issue. It is however very sad to see the amount of pain you appear to have gone through with W/C Eng and the dual port wastegate capsule.

Anyway frustration aside...

I'm no expert on matters but I did have a very long battle with my car to get it boosting properly. However, my strategy was to get the stock car working properly before thinking about any upgrades. I also used Freescan extensively around each change and it was this that made the difference and allowed the problems to be isolated and addressed. Thanks out again to Dermot and others on the forum for the help with this.

If its of any use I have a Freescan Log of a perfectly performing stock 1994 S4 on a rolling road (Backmarker ). This log was confirmed as opertating as expected by Dermot and the car made around 270bhp during this run on a cold February Morning a couple of years ago. Its a great base line for freescan log comparisons.

Just for the record there was a number of minor issues preventing my car from boosting properly. Most of which you appear to have already replaced. Knacked Wastegate Capsule, (but appeared fine when pressure testing), Incorrectly adjusted wastegate capsule arm, Boost Soleniod, vacuum line to MAP Sensor, Boost pressure line. Lack of boost gauge (so fitted one), small intake Manifold leak, knacked spark plug, chargecooler impellor, chargecooler rad, oil air seperator, one way checkvalves, to name the main culprits.

One other point of note, I see from your page you have implemented an oil catch can. Myself and Jon did this but we found we had issues with the Sump pressurising and the car blowing oil out of the dip stick under heavy load. This is obviously the reason why that pipe has such a large inner bore. Im not saying the implementation of the catch can and breather is related but I've removed it from mine and gone direct to atmosphere.

I'd like to see any Freescan logs you have so please feel free to email me. I dont have Dermots level of understanding but I do have plenty of my own logs from different stages for comparison.

Good luck... Keep us posted.... B)

Edited April 7, 2008 by CarlC

[s4s]

I had same problem when I changed my turbo to WC stage 1 turbo.

It turned out that it was incorrect wastegate capsule adjustment.

I have to turn the wastegate arm in about 4 rounds. Have you tried this?

Or you may have poor fuel pump, dirty fuel tanks or dirty fuel filter.

I'm positively believe not turbo.

Chale

[CarlC]

WOW so many Dyno Runs. After seeing my car doing one I was reluctant to ever put it through that again. V.Scary! - There on youtube too! :-) The stock Esprit and Freescan log I mentioned before is the the actual run.

It wasnt scientific but car performance on the same road route is what I used along with Freescan. Also alot cheaper and lot more fun. I only dyno'd when I was pretty sure everything was fixed, just to make sure.

I also note from your web site your quoting some really odd looking BHP for the S4, 215bhp at the start, am I reading that right ? That sounds like our stock output of an N/A Esprit?

Edited April 7, 2008 by CarlC

[Dermot]

Tony your website makes for some interesting reading!

http://www.lotusesprit.com.au/s4engine.htm

I am sorry about all the pain you are experiencing with your car.

I see you have copied chunks of the text and taken some figures directly from my site. An acknowledgement here and there were appropriate would be the courteous thing to do.

[Tony94S4]

Tony,

I am confused, what were ur dyno #s on ur 1st run with the wc turbo u described on ur stage 6 upgrade bellow u mention lean not rich like above

Stage 6

Parts Used: High Flow Turbo, high volume secondary injectors, (Mark I) Sports EXHAUST SYSTEMs fitted with a Catalyst, K&N filter, High pressure fuel pump.

Fuel injectors _ Secondary: Although the two plenum secondary injectors are similar in construction to the primary injectors they are actually high impedance (16 ohm) 190 cc/min or 18 lb/hr saturated type injectors. These injectors operate at a fixed frequency of 128 Hz, with the quantity of fuel delivered dependent only the pulse width sent by the ECU.

The stock S4 ECU fuel mapping only triggers the secondary injectors over 4800 rpm and 0.7 bar boost. We have fitted 270 cc/min (25.7 lb/hr) RC Racing high impedance injectors. If you are undertaking major engine mods it is very important to think about the correct fuelling.

The ECU goes into "open loop" mode above 94% throttle openings, in open loop mode there is no feedback to the ECU from the lambda sensor, under these conditions fuelling is based on pre-stored fuel maps in the ECU.

Our first Dyno run with the new turbo and seconday injectors showed the engine running lean acrossall the rev range. At that stage we introduced a high pressure fuel pump to correct this issue.

Tony,

here is Artie's dyno slip with the same turbo

http://www.lotusespritforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=15523

Edited April 7, 2008 by Tony94S4

[greekmix]

Dermot,

In our our discussion from the past and also from the "about us" page on the website we have clear reference that help and information is coming from websites like yours and WEF since you have a lot there. if technical information is there there is no need to re-create the wheel right?.

As you can see to build something like this takes time and with the trouble I am going through your information is helpfull.

I am happy to add anything you need to make it the reference clear.

After all I all ready spoken to you before I stared the project.. Please let me know what is it you need to make this happen as I am showing the cars development.

QUOTING FROM THE ABOUT US PAGE>>>>

At this stage we want to thank all Lotus cars owners around Australia for supporting us and all of our local business specialist and product sponsors who have been involved with our project, as well as some international contacts all over Europe, Lotus Esprit World,WC ENGINEERING, PUK Esprit,Dermot esprit S4. All of the names mentioned have provide us with some technical information reference that we used to improve or maintained our project on this site.

Tony your website makes for some interesting reading!

http://www.lotusesprit.com.au/s4engine.htm

I am sorry about all the pain you are experiencing with your car.

I see you have copied chunks of the text and taken some figures directly from my site. An acknowledgement here and there were appropriate would be the courteous thing to do.

Tony

The technical turms is how the inectors should be running as per Dermots finding.

However the first turbo I installed was a local unit which also did not much the engine electronics.

This Turbo was not a WC unit but it unable us to run some tests.

Then we decided to go with a working known product like the WC turbo and bypass the local experiments as they can run into many issues.

The dyno graph provided is from the original turbo with no secondary injectors fitted using the stock fuel pump. At that point the car was running lean up the top.

Then before we reveive or installed any other turbos the injectors were replaced firts together with the Fuel Pump for a high volume unit.

I hope this anwers your question.

Tony,

I am confused, what were ur dyno #s on ur 1st run with the wc turbo u described on ur stage 6 upgrade bellow u mention lean not rich like above

Stage 6

Parts Used: High Flow Turbo, high volume secondary injectors, (Mark I) Sports EXHAUST SYSTEMs fitted with a Catalyst, K&N filter, High pressure fuel pump.

Fuel injectors _ Secondary: Although the two plenum secondary injectors are similar in construction to the primary injectors they are actually high impedance (16 ohm) 190 cc/min or 18 lb/hr saturated type injectors. These injectors operate at a fixed frequency of 128 Hz, with the quantity of fuel delivered dependent only the pulse width sent by the ECU.

The stock S4 ECU fuel mapping only triggers the secondary injectors over 4800 rpm and 0.7 bar boost. We have fitted 270 cc/min (25.7 lb/hr) RC Racing high impedance injectors. If you are undertaking major engine mods it is very important to think about the correct fuelling.

The ECU goes into "open loop" mode above 94% throttle openings, in open loop mode there is no feedback to the ECU from the lambda sensor, under these conditions fuelling is based on pre-stored fuel maps in the ECU.

Our first Dyno run with the new turbo and seconday injectors showed the engine running lean acrossall the rev range. At that stage we introduced a high pressure fuel pump to correct this issue.

Tony,

here is Artie's dyno slip with the same turbo

http://www.lotusespritforum.com/forums/ind...showtopic=15523

Thanks for the constractive input mmmmm I see simular issues here.

Prior to the last dyno run.

The boost solanoid has been replaced (not faulty?)

Wastegate capsule also replace back to the stock unit as the one provided was not producing the boos as the post showing above.

Map sensor checked with the rest of the vacuum lines

no appearing manifold leak

Chargecooller impellor serviced with a major service prior to the car beeing modified.

I will forward the freescann we did on the dyno for your reference and thank for the offer.

However my question is .. how can you tell the engine HP from driving your car on the road or even reading freescan?

Edited April 9, 2008 by greekmixS4

[esprits4de]

Tony,

I went back and re-read the post and saw that the coolant temp was 82-87 cel. Where did the reading come from ? The gage or the freescan log ? There are two sensors reading the temperature, with my car it was that a faulty thermostat caused the car to stay in limp mode. The engine was too cool although the coolant readings were good ( that is above the magical 82 deg...)

You may want to have a look there. Inexpensive diagnostic if you know some one with an IR thermometer and know where to test for temperatures....

If all else fails I would assume that there may be a cabeling problem, a bitch to test for....

IMHO, my car is 14 years of age, rubberlines, connectors, electric cabeling and gaskets are on the edge of their actual shelflife. I will surely have to replace the batch in the very near future!

[greekmix]

Thank you for your input.

The temp came from the freescann reading was also checked with the gauge inside the car.

The coolant is normal from what I can see and the car worms up ok.

The other important reading is the MAT temp which is also showing me on the Dyno between 40 to 50 C".

I must say the car runs cooller on the road and never goes above 37 to 40 C" on the MAT Temp.

PS: This reading is celcius by the way !!!!!! and correct me if I am wrong a limp mode will not allow me to rev over 4k and also give you some error codes.

my car has no error codes and it revs till 7k at this stage but the power is not as it should as per the dyno graph provided.

I went back and re-read the post and saw that the coolant temp was 82-87 cel. Where did the reading come from ? The gage or the freescan log ? There are two sensors reading the temperature, with my car it was that a faulty thermostat caused the car to stay in limp mode. The engine was too cool although the coolant readings were good ( that is above the magical 82 deg...)

Edited April 7, 2008 by greekmixS4

[Vulcan Grey]

Ok, this is just an idea from quickly skimming all 6 or so pages of this... but

Are you sure the intake hose isn't collapsing with the new turbo, or something that kinked it while you were installing the turbo? Cause that will limit boost.

Just a thought.

[greekmix]

Vulcan

The boost is now fixed as we all can see the results from the dyno.

The fault was found to be the wastegate capsule.

However since we got the boost back the power is now down to 217 bhp.

The stock turbo produced 250 on the graph which is provided for all to see on this post.

However the boost from the graph is not at the same level and it looks to be droping off.. I dont know if this is the turbo or the electronics vending out the boost.

After all the ECM the chip and the rest have stayed the same.

This is a good project to go crazy I think!!

I am also about to orgonise a leak down test to see if the engine still performs internally.

I will also try to look for the timing marks on the belt just in case

Ok, this is just an idea from quickly skimming all 6 or so pages of this... but

Are you sure the intake hose isn't collapsing with the new turbo, or something that kinked it while you were installing the turbo? Cause that will limit boost.

Just a thought.

Edited April 8, 2008 by greekmixS4

[Artie]

Tony,

Are you getting significant amounts of knocking? What is the Air Fuel ratio? The reason I ask is upon initial dyno testing of my Stage 1 WC turbo I also experienced lower than standard readings. I had made 262hp with my stock turbo but made 242hp (all at the wheels hp) with my WC turbo. Upon investigation, I found that my S4s chip was not up to task of fueling appropriately and thus I was running very lean and "pinking" a lot. The ECM was pulling between 8 and 9 degrees of timing. I had John At WC issue me a new custom memcal with more agressive fueling and I got 308hp and 296torque. I am still running a bit lean and I have another chip with more fueling to hopefully get me even better power. She was still pinking a little and pulling about 3 degrees of timing. In a rotary engine, 1 degree of timing can net 15 to 20 more hp at the same boost as long as there is no knock!

Artie

[t70]

I'm on the boat with Artie... I think it's you're lean mixture that's causing a hp decrease. I am also concerned about your fuel pressure... in tank pumps sometimes get plugged up from debris within the tank which could be from sitting. Additionally... are you sure you're BOV isn't leaking... I've often found that piston type BOV's don't hold pressure well. The SSQV by HKS is the only way to go for higher hp applications in my opinion. If you're lean... that's why you're boost isn't coming on properly. You're probably lean because of the decrease in back pressure caused by the change in the exhaust turbine, however, I would still check your FPR (Fuel pressure regulator) and remove you're BOV.

How about this...

Step 1: Start by hooking up a fuel pressure guage to ensure that you still have the proper fuel pressure at full boost.

Step 2: remove the BOV completely.

Step 3: check the endplay and free-spin-ability of the turbo.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Mark T-C

[greekmix]

Tony,

Are you getting significant amounts of knocking? What is the Air Fuel ratio? The reason I ask is upon initial dyno testing of my Stage 1 WC turbo I also experienced lower than standard readings. I had made 262hp with my stock turbo but made 242hp (all at the wheels hp) with my WC turbo. Upon investigation, I found that my S4s chip was not up to task of fueling appropriately and thus I was running very lean and "pinking" a lot. The ECM was pulling between 8 and 9 degrees of timing. I had John At WC issue me a new custom memcal with more agressive fueling and I got 308hp and 296torque. I am still running a bit lean and I have another chip with more fueling to hopefully get me even better power. She was still pinking a little and pulling about 3 degrees of timing. In a rotary engine, 1 degree of timing can net 15 to 20 more hp at the same boost as long as there is no knock!

Artie

Artie.

Our results then are similar till we replace the turbo so my engine should be healthy enough.

I was getting a lot of knoking up to 150+ however but the freescan never retarded the engine as the knocking were showing high from idle. Since then I replace the sensor and at the moment its running at 5 to 7 knocks still showing the numbers at idle and never changes.

This is a mystery as the timing has not changed.

regarding the last run I was told the car is running very RICH accross the rev range and i dont have a fuel issue any longer the lean fuel issue was seen with the standard turbo and standard injectors and pump.

I believe fuel is no longer the fault. Timming maybe ????

I have been told from John@ wWC that now the car does not over boost... However my freescan is showing me MAT votage reaching at 2.24V so with my calculations if I take the .85 Baro from this number I end up with 1.39Vwhich should euqual to 1.3bar or so... Am I right here?

This car should be producing up to 1.25 the number I got is higher than that...

Thats what I know so far.. I am having another dyno run and also a leak down test done on the engine and checking the timing as well this week.

I will post all the info I have and thank you all for helping out!!!!!

Tony

Mark,

I am little confused where did you see the car is now running lean?

remember the BOV is been removed and put back on with no diffrence after all its new and has been also tested.

The fuel Pump is also just put in with the secondary injectors.

The turbo has been checked two times by WC and its works ok.

My feeling is with the boost control or wastegate capsule, once again I dont think I got this capsule working right and the combination with rich fuel.

If anyone know how to fix this I would be a very happy man !!!

I'm on the boat with Artie... I think it's you're lean mixture that's causing a hp decrease. I am also concerned about your fuel pressure... in tank pumps sometimes get plugged up from debris within the tank which could be from sitting. Additionally... are you sure you're BOV isn't leaking... I've often found that piston type BOV's don't hold pressure well. The SSQV by HKS is the only way to go for higher hp applications in my opinion. If you're lean... that's why you're boost isn't coming on properly. You're probably lean because of the decrease in back pressure caused by the change in the exhaust turbine, however, I would still check your FPR (Fuel pressure regulator) and remove you're BOV.

How about this...

Step 1: Start by hooking up a fuel pressure guage to ensure that you still have the proper fuel pressure at full boost.

Step 2: remove the BOV completely.

Step 3: check the endplay and free-spin-ability of the turbo.

Guys,

Speaking with Marcus he has pointed me to the fuel issue as the car is running rich... since the car after the secondary Injectors and fuel pump we have noticed running rich and in some cases very rich.

I have installed a WALBRO GS342 fuel pump which I believe providing more than 255 ltr / Hour.

Could this cause an issue?

See link http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21Y5QBBA5ZL.jpg

I was under the impression that the regulators is controling the fuel as long as there is enough presure available.

The manual says that the pressure must be 420 KPA at the rail but does not say if it can go over that what happens....

Maybe we have more than one fault here ... can anyone show some light to this question?

Edited April 8, 2008 by greekmixS4

[t70]

Put your old injectors back in.. you are over fuelling because the ecu has a certain dwell time based on a smaller injector and you're dumping too much fuel.

As for you're walbro 225 lph... nothing wrong there... fuel pressure regulator should take care of the problem... the fuel pressure regulators biggest job is at idle... not at max boost.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Mark T-C

[Paula&Marcus]

Tony, Mark,

IIRC there are 2x RC SL 270 secondary injectors installed in that engine, right ?

From my experience this no problem at all, actually these injectors are absolutely fine for (slightly) uprated Esprit engines.

We have done this size many times with no problems at all.

If the engine actually is running too rich on top end, then there is a different problem !

Marcus

Put your old injectors back in.. you are over fuelling because the ecu has a certain dwell time based on a smaller injector and you're dumping too much fuel.

As for you're walbro 225 lph... nothing wrong there... fuel pressure regulator should take care of the problem... the fuel pressure regulators biggest job is at idle... not at max boost.

[t70]

marcus: is that with the #6 chip that this has been your experience?

[greekmix]

Markus, Mark.

Yes these are the Injectors used however the car is running rich across the rev range. I will try to get the fuel mixture from the dyno and posted up here for all to see.

So the fuel pump should be ok them? Just for everyones information the Fuel pressure regulator is also new.

I am just confused how come the map on the chip 6 was working fine apart from the top end rev range which was found lean with the previus run with the original turbo and now we get a very rich reading across the rev range?

Marcus .... is we need to get a specialised chip are you able to program that?I will send you an email with the frescan for reference on the last runs

Edited April 8, 2008 by greekmixS4

[Tony94S4]

I have been told from John@ wWC that now the car does not over boost... However my freescan is showing me MAT votage reaching at 2.24V so with my calculations if I take the .85 Baro from this number I end up with 1.39Vwhich should euqual to 1.3bar or so... Am I right here?

Tony,

not sure if u misspeled or reading the wrong sensor,

for baro u should look @ MAP sensor readings

[greekmix]

Let me clarify this.

There is also a MAT V reading as well. But I am talking about the

MAT and BARO columns which I was told the reading is represented as voltage and are next to eachother on the freescan file.

However my Baro reading is always at 0.85 which is normal for Australia pressure

and the MAT varies of cource to the maximum level of 2.24.

By reading those columns of freescan (P and Q)I was told we can work out the boost the car is developing....

I have the freescan available if anyone would like to see this...

I have been told from John@ wWC that now the car does not over boost... However my freescan is showing me MAT votage reaching at 2.24V so with my calculations if I take the .85 Baro from this number I end up with 1.39Vwhich should euqual to 1.3bar or so... Am I right here?

Tony,

not sure if u misspeled or reading the wrong sensor,

for baro u should look @ MAP sensor readings

Edited April 8, 2008 by greekmixS4

[Tony94S4]

dont have any logs and have not used free scan in 4ever,

so not sure

MAT or IAT sensor should read ur air temperature,

ur MAP readings should change on from

vacum to pressure- (Idle to boost)

Im sure some one can claryfy the voltages 4 us

[t70]

If you could post a dyno graph with tps, MAT and MAP... that would be perfect.

[greekmix]

Tony,

Thanks mate.. its a little diffrent the way freescan provides the info, maybe only a someone who known how to read it well may understand what I am trying to say.

The support I have received its fantastic from you people and I will never forget this..

I am sure I will get to the bottom of this some day and we can all learn from this experience.

Mark,

The freescan log in not acceptable on this forum however the boost is available on the dyno graph I provided on this forum a little earlier.

I will try to upload the fuel mixture as well very soon.

If you could post a dyno graph with tps, MAT and MAP... that would be perfect.

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi Mark,

Yes with all types of chips. It does not matter what software you are using from bone stock chip up to #6 you wont get problems, IMHO.

Marcus

marcus: is that with the #6 chip that this has been your experience?

Tony,

I dont think it a good idea to even try this.

You cannot cure a fault by adding another unknown component.

In theory and practice your setup should work just fine. Many people have done the very same (or very similar) uprades with great sucess.

I'm still convinced that somewhere you or your specialists implemented one or more faults/errors.

Its up to you ... you have to bite the bullet and find whats actually wrong ...

Marcus

Marcus .... is we need to get a specialised chip are you able to program that?I will send you an email with the frescan for reference on the last runs

[t70]

Marcus;

Is it possible that he has excessive backpressure from a turbo that's not spooling correctly or somehow there's something in his exhaust after the turbine that's causing the back pressure?

I also wonder if the timing has been pulled because of the knock sensor on the previous run and the ecu hasn't properly been reset?

[greekmix]

I agree Marcus. and thank you for the continuing help and advice ... I also belive the chip 6 used is the best so far I have tested so it should do the job well!!

I am woking backwords now with all the last upgrades I have made.

However the car will also be on the dyno and we will make the changes as we go.

Its hard to test on the road as you can appreciate that.

Tomorrows test will include.

Leak down test

Cam timing checking

Wastegate capsule adjustment as per factory settings

Fuel pressure test.

and I have with me all the original parts in case we need to go back in time.

I hope we can get to it and produce the power it should.