Fuel starvation issue

[de_futter@msn.com]

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Thanks for the update - that is good info - guess I shall be ordering a tank just after Christmas then.

As for anything else they could do - fixing that lousy Lotus fuel level sensor

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Whats wrong with the sensor?

AFAIK the pump and sensor are all kept. The only behaviour change is that it doesn't move for the first 10-15 liters as the tank is bigger and then works fine.

[pgn340r]

Looks like you guys can be the guinea pigs and report back. Don't want to spend best part of

Edited October 6, 2008 by pgn340r

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He he - yeah.

Would be nice if the labour could be claimed via warranty

[Kurgen]

I can't believe that you guys are just accepting the fuel surge problem, and are prepared to pay for an alternative tank.

This problem is purely down to Lotus, and should be fixed under warranty free of charge.

I have only done a few hundred miles in my car, have not yet tracked it and have not experienced the problem.

If I do experience the problem, then I will complain vigorously until it is sorted.. if not I will take legal action.

If you were to spin on road due to fuel surge, then get killed in a resulting accident.. would your families just accept this?

Rob

[stephanie plum]

Rob

It's extremely unlikely to happen on the road - and if you were pushing it to the level of performance that you would need in order to experience it, fuel surge would be the least of your problems.

And I've done 6500 miles in mine, and tracked it many times, and not experienced the problem either. But then I don't race it. On track it's fairly easy to just keep it filled up sufficiently that you won't experience it.

For racing, it's fairly common to have to change aspects of a car as it's a somewhat different ball game.

Is this your first Lotus?

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I can't believe that you guys are just accepting the fuel surge problem, and are prepared to pay for an alternative tank.

This problem is purely down to Lotus, and should be fixed under warranty free of charge.

Fuel surge can happen in any car. The problem is limited to a fairly specific set of circumstances that due to the nature of the 211 (and Exige S) can be encountered on track and is not part of any Type approval criteria aspect of the car let alone the SVA regs.

I have only done a few hundred miles in my car, have not yet tracked it and have not experienced the problem.

If I do experience the problem, then I will complain vigorously until it is sorted.. if not I will take legal action.

If you were to spin on road due to fuel surge, then get killed in a resulting accident.. would your families just accept this?

Legal action - On what grounds? The car isn't fit for purpose? but it's fully compliant to the SVA. Track days and racing scenarios are not covered under these rules.

If you encountered this problem on the road then

- the fuel level was too low and

- you're driving excessively (possibly in the eyes of the law even dangerously)

Both are directly the responsibility of the driver not the car.

On every track day I've been on they've stressed that you should always have 1/2 tank of fuel as a minimum - follow this guidline then you'll most likely never see the problem.

Lotus are aware of the problem and as far as I know looking at a solution - whether this will be a 100% warranty is yet to be discovered but I for one wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. What I would like to see is a compromise where Lotus bear some of the cost - I was semi-serious about the free fitting of the tank.

[Kurgen]

Ok guys.. fair point!

Yes, it is my 1st Lotus.. never had fuel surge in my GT3s..

I suppose it is highly unlikely to happen on the road, but I still feel that it is potentially dangerous, esp if you spun on track and got T-boned. Just surprised that Lotus have not come up with a fix (which should be easy) and covered it under warranty!

ps.. I've had TVRs in the past..

[de_futter@msn.com]

I agree with Ads, don't see any legal grounds for dispute with Lotus but, hey if you want to give your money to the legal profession, I am sure they will more than happy to oblige you.

I know Lotus are aware of the problem but as Ads says, it can be almost completely avoided by maintaining a reasonable level of fuel in the tank so no need for it to occur on a track day. Most racers will have the bag tank anyway (to comply with regulations) so no problem.

If Lotus determine a solution and wish to retro-fit it under warrenty, I'm sure nobody will object. However I think it more likely they won't. Of course a good friendly solution might be to offer it without any labour charge provided that it is done as part of a routine service.

[Edit] I really shouldn't have taken so long typing that but I was distracted by a plate of food

Edited October 7, 2008 by DEL211

[simonwg905]

Lets not forget its a british brand....................Lots Of Troubles Usually Serious...........

Hey, it won't happen to ur GT3s.............those are neat german engineering...........world wide famous for accurate & dependable performance in any harsh condition.

Even my seadoo SC 255bp jetski got TWO dry sumps...........to ensure its perfect oil supply in all sea conditions..................its got a 1.5L Rotex SC engine

U got one in every GT3/RS & 360CS/430 scuderia, too

I still love my lotus...............its sometimes piss u off with alots of after production "quick Fix" but the Lotus do listen to us..........the owners about those complains from time to time.

So if lotus can resolve this fuel surge problem with our 2-11 owners under warranty.................there shouldn't be a big deal.

Hey, if u got a body clam like mine...................u wouldn't be buying another lotus , right!!!!

But after all, I'm glad what lotus did for me.......................they fly in a complete new clams for me...................now i'm missing those body graphics for the new CO colour scheme..................anyone out at lotus could hear me??????

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Hey, it won't happen to ur GT3s.............those are neat german engineering...........world wide famous for accurate & dependable performance in any harsh condition.

cough splutter... sorry - coffe over monitor at that one!

If you want reliability then you buy japanese. From my own experience (and reading other peoples too) it seems that the Germans have simply dropped the ball on reliability. Don't get me started on the attitude of Porsche dealers.

Even my seadoo SC 255bp jetski got TWO dry sumps...........to ensure its perfect oil supply in all sea conditions..................its got a 1.5L Rotex SC engine

U got one in every GT3/RS & 360CS/430 scuderia, too

Jet skis have to extreme roll and pitch angles (even upside down) so hardly a fair comparison.

As for the other cars - all of them cost 2-3 times the value of 211. Also, if those engine go "bang" they cost a fortune to replace. I know a Porsche engine is the best part of 30k.

[Burgundian]

I'm not sure if the issue is unusually acute in my car but as I noted in an earlier post I've been seeing starvation at fuel tank levels significantly above half full (e.g. with as little as 2-2.5 gallons below full) in the long Turn 2 left-hander at Thunderhill. Fortunately there's plenty of run-off on the outside of this corner but at my other two local tracks that have medium-high speed left-handers (Turn 9 at Laguna Seca, Turn 6 at Infineon) the picture is less pretty. I've yet to run the 2-Eleven at these tracks but I'll be (cautiously) collecting data there over the next month. I'm definitely in the market for a decent solution to this problem as I don't particularly enjoy scaring myself anymore than my current level of driving mediocrity allows!

[pgn340r]

[Edit] I really shouldn't have taken so long typing that but I was distracted by a plate of food

Run fat boy run

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I'm not sure if the issue is unusually acute in my car but as I noted in an earlier post I've been seeing starvation at fuel tank levels significantly above half full (e.g. with as little as 2-2.5 gallons below full) in the long Turn 2 left-hander at Thunderhill. Fortunately there's plenty of run-off on the outside of this corner but at my other two local tracks that have medium-high speed left-handers (Turn 9 at Laguna Seca, Turn 6 at Infineon) the picture is less pretty. I've yet to run the 2-Eleven at these tracks but I'll be (cautiously) collecting data there over the next month. I'm definitely in the market for a decent solution to this problem as I don't particularly enjoy scaring myself anymore than my current level of driving mediocrity allows!

For the US cars I imagine they all run the track pack aero kits - if so then this will exagerate the problem even more due to the added downforce.

The only option I can see is to replace the tank with something different. I'll get onto pro-alloy and see what shipping would be like but you may be able to find a stateside manufacturer with a similar product.

From what I've been able to deduce, the 211 and exige s are prone as they use the standard tank and pump but as they have larger/supplemented fuel injectors they can exhaust the reserve fuel in the anti surge part of the pump much too quickly. the other cars don't tend to suffer as

a ) they don't generate the same kind of turning g

b ) the engine can't use the fuel at the same rate as the supercharged variants.

[Burgundian]

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I'm considering Pro-Alloy too. Their stuff comes well recommended by the folks at Suspension Performance who are helping me with the set-up and maintainence of my 2-Eleven here in the Bay Area.

I'll be interested to hear how your excperience goes with them.

Mark

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Hi to all you 211's accross the pond.

If you are interested Pro-alloy have a US distributor:

shinoo@sector111.com

http://www.sector111.com

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[Burgundian]

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I'm planning on ordering directly from Pro-Alloy (through Suspension Performance). Looks to be a couple of weeks lead time.

Cheers

Mark

[Bibs]

Fuel Surge: There does appear to be an issue with some cars which is a result of a quality control problem at the fuel tank manufacturers. Not all cars are affected. We are working to resolve this right now and will be announcing a plan to rectify things just as soon as we can finalise the details.

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I spent some time today at Pro-alloy (good excuse to brush the dust off the 211).

Have to say I'm very impressed and the tanks are stunning. They had some cut outs and talked me through in detail the changes between the standard tank and their versions.

Like the standard it has conventional baffles however the enhancement is that the valves between the baffled areas use one way valves that if the pressure difference between the pump chamber is to high (ie when entering a long left hander and the fuel sloshes away from the pump) then the valves lock shut preventing the fuel to escape. Once things return to normal then the baffle valves open allowing the fuel to move as normal. The valves only lock one way so on a right hander the fuel is allowed into the pump chamber unhindered.

I'm not sure if the standard tank has it but the fuel tank is also packed with saftey foam. Mainly in there to prevent explosion in the event of vapour ignition is does also have a secondary marginal effect to reduce surge.

The standard tank is already mounted tilted to help reduce surge - this is one of the reasons they can offer a larger capactity tank as theirs is mounted more level and uses different routing for the air vents.

The two main guys are also avid Elise'rs - in fact they were at the recent Bell and Colvill track day (I think they were in a 300bhp Audi TT S1 Silver Exige - it was in bits when I went). They mainly specialise in radiators but started the fuel tank line when one of them had a stage 4 (300bhp) VXT and started having fuel surge issues at half tank levels.

I know that there have been complaints of baffle seals failing but looking at the standard tanks I don't see how you'd be 100% protected from fuel surge under extreme left hand cornering without something like the pro-alloy tank design.

There are downsides - the fuel sender is mounted inside the baffled area so when turning left hard the fuel gauge can over-read. However it will settle down to the correct level after a few minutes.

I'm quite tempted - the cost is quite reasonable and after seeing the operation in person am impressed with the setup. The added bonus is that you can get an extra 10 liters of fuel in so maybe another 60 miles range.

[gavin@petken.com]

The 'out of fuel' light is so poor on the dash, that think of it this way, when you get the starvation issue it's the signal you need to fill up!

[bluken@cmcmmi.com]

For those of us who are satisfied with the OEM tank size and don't need a fuel bag that meets FIA standards, there may be light at the end of the tunnel from Lotus to repair the fuel surge problem. You may want to sit tight (but don't yet hold your breath) before you spend what's left of your retirement dollars, euros or pounds!

Bill

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Unless they add one way valves to the baffles or a separate swirl pot it's not going to make the slightest difference. If you had seen the cut aways I saw on Thursday of a standard tank and an optimised tank the differences are huge.

[1418]

Wow... this can be a hell of a problem. At just under a half a tank I thought that I would not come up on this.

Have to resolve this as it's just too dangerous for me and more so for my track buddies.

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Are you having fuel surge with an 09 car?

[kiwi 2-11]

I have raised this problem about a year ago, and I now dont/wont race my car at Taupo (A1GP NZ round) track. There are two fast left handers during which my engine just stops for a second or two. This situation is not only very dangerous, but not good for the engine. I always start with a full tank..8 laps later its well below half full.

The problem occurs on both standard tyres and slicks.

Im surprised a car such as the Lotus 2-11 doesn't have dual fuel pumps, I would have thought this would be a simple solution to the problem.