Frustrated

[stephanie plum]

I've had mine for two years now - done some 12,000 miles in it, and maybe 20/25 trackdays - taken it on roadtrips through France and Spain and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Trouble is, I'm now starting to get frustrated with the car on certain tracks - especially Goodwood which is my local and the one I do most often.

It's the top line speed - it just isn't enough. Try as I might, I can't get past an indicated 130mph on the straights there - no matter how fast and smoothly I exit the corners. I've had a fair bit of training now and think I'm reasonably competent, and am quick through the corners - but I keep getting nailed on the straight down to Woodcote - and it's driving me mad.

What are my options? I can't afford

[de_futter@msn.com]

It's the top line speed - it just isn't enough.

Any ideas guys - otherwise if Edika gets his Honda installation cracked I may be enquiring at MSC!

Have you tried sitting lower in the seat to reduce wind resistance

IIRC you have the road front splitter and rear wing - perhaps you could try the track versions? I found they made significant difference to corner apex speed (increased it) but they may help with the straight line speed too - maybe that nice man at B&C will lend them to you (on the basis you will buy them if they do want you want).

Failing that, you are stuck with some kind of power increase (upping the boost from the supercharger, remapping, fitting a jet pack)

[Scotty C]

Jo

I know how you feel. Not that I have had many issues with cars passing me as yet.

Lotus (fingers crossed) will be coming out with a CR gearbox (with stronger syncros) soon, well by the time yours comes out of its winter bubble.

Its not going to be cheap.

Apart from that we will have to wait and see what RSW come up with

[stephanie plum]

Thanks both.

Del - I use mine too much on the road to use the track front splitter - and even if it gave me an extra bit in the apex, it isn't going to help me get the punch in the back I'm after............

Scotty - trouble is I don't do Lotus only days, so I've got Porsches and Ferraris coming past me Plus the odd Atom 300. It's getting to me!!

Being dumb here - RSW? And didn't know about the CR box - gotta be cheaper than

[Scotty C]

ye i must admit I havn't done that many mixed cars days. I can understand your fustration.

Maybe I shouldn't have said about the gearbox yet

RSW = http://www.pilbeamracing.co.uk/rsw_evo.htm

Now that won't be cheap.

The V8 is the same in this http://www.arielatom.com/specs/atom-500-v8 and this http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGLR_enGB330GB330&q=caterham+v8+levante&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=41vwSp_ZG5a9jAe6uOibAw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CBkQqwQwAw#

[Edika]

Perhaps, first, just change the final ratio :

http://www.komo-tec.com/LOTUS-Elise-111R/SC/Gearbox/Close-ratio-final-drive-501-for-Elise-111R-Exige-S-2-11::418.html

it's cheap and easy to fit

Anyway, I don't know exactly how much will cost my swap because, I change also brakes and fuel tank. But I'm sure that for 315 HP, it's cheaper than a 2ZZ sequentiel gearbox.

[Simon M]

I think an indicated 130mph at Goodwood is pretty darn good for a true road going 211. The most we have ever seen on the full bifter GT4 is around 135mph (GPS speed). Our cars are just a bit to small for big speed figures I'm afraid.

The sequential gearbox will help you get up to speed allot faster without a power upgrade and its a seriously well built peace of kit to boot but at the same price as a quality family road car in a choice of metallic colours, its a big ask!

The toneau cover is also worth a few miles an hour at the top end but creates issues of the logistical kind!

If your main goal at present is to top 130 at Goodwood I'd be looking at aero efficiency first, using a sophisticated roll of tape and an eye on the temperature guages before going further (if it doesnt work you can always take it off, if it does you've become a race engineer). I'd stay away from the larger front splitter for top speed but the Sport rear wing generates less drag than stock so should help, but its not cheap. Then start looking at the cars air intake system, the HKS item on the GT4 works very well.

[Edika]

At 130 mph with normal gearbox you are in 5th gear

With sequentiel ?

[stephanie plum]

Simon - thanks for your comments - I'll speak to Russel at Motorsport about the intake for sure.

Do you not need the front splitter to "balance" out the rear wing? I'm very much a lay person so forgive me if that's a dumb question - I really thought the two go hand in hand otherwise you could unbalance the car?

In terms of the tape idea - I presume you mean doing what I saw them doing to Martins car at Brands one race, and partially taping up the mouth?

I guess I'm a bit dismayed that you only see 135pmh on your GT4 - I suppose aerodynamics let us down at the end of the day. I have the tonneau - but it created a new problem for me - I am only 5'4" and cannot see over the bubble - so Nick very kindly cut it down for me, but unfortunately in doing so we lost any aerodynamic property to send the air over my head, so I find it very uncomfortable at anything over about 70mph

Edika - I would be very interested to know the final price of your conversion when completed. You are correct about being in 5th for 130mph with the manual gearbox - I find 6th completely redundant on track. The Komotec c/r box solution I will look into - thank you.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Jo Lloyd

[Edika]

I won't say you the price, because I prefer to let MSC calculate it after this first prototype (I hope you understand).

But all the work will be done after my car, so it should be shipper and quicker (nearly 8 month ... ).

In the balance, the price you sell the Toyota motor is important.

[Simon M]

Drag will always be an issue on these little monsters, but at least its not as big a problem as the Exige has in this area! I raced an Exige in Dubai and whilst it got upto speed fast it was only as fast as a 200bhp shopping car half way down the straights even in the tow.... thats when you realise certain inherent limitations in the design. Still it toasted the shoppers on the brakes and exits.

The ammount of downforce generated by the front splitter is not that strong because the frontal area of the car is too small, besides allot of Trophy drivers don't use them. I can assure you it will be fine with std front and a Sport rear wing.

If you want an aero screen tailored to you give me a shout. We cut ours down (I have a very talented model maker on site) I'm over 6ft whilst my team mate is under 5.5 and neither of us have an problem. Let me know and I'll tell you how to measure it up properly.

[noe]

Not a technical reply here but had the same issue here in Japan - track day with just Lotus fine, depending on how good you drive on the day - and you'll be whizzing passed most.........

Though on mixed track day's forget it .... if you on track with lambo's and they got the straight pipes and racing exhausts fitted you won't just be left behind but 'deaf behind' .. no noise meter level at fuji so they get loud.

Saying that in the mixed race you'll still be lapping other vehicles .... though GT-R's are so quiet they'll just sneak by very fast ....

It would be nice if a 2-Eleven type car had a 175mph top speed - that would be very nice indeed

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I've done a couple of mixed days and can share your pain Jo.

I do have a new found respect for a properly driven 997 Turbo but the Evo's/Subarus get on my nerves as they just aren't that quick in the corners.

Under braking is where I feel the 211 shines as it's not my strongest area but have confidence that I can pretty much murder anything here.

Course that doesn't help with the striaght bits

The mythical fabric tonneau could help as a compromise (if it ever turns up!). Keep the same normal screen and then at least with the passenger area blanked off it can't hurt things.

The rear wing should be fine with the standard splitter and even then being adjustable you could tune out any minor balance problems if you find any.

Taping up the mouth would help - probably better sending this air under/around the car than through the radiator and then sharply upwards through the bonnet vent as this is going to generate drag. However it'd be interesting to see if any downforce is lost but I don't know how efficient the air routing is through that part of the car.

Could replace the front air/air oil coolers with the water laminova unit so you can remove two radiators from the airflow and a fair bit of weight.

I don't think revised gearbox will give much - maybe 5-10 mph but it's going to be down more to aero vs power.

Take for example the Subaru WRX with 255bhp - top speed 130, Audi TT 3.2 with 260bhp about 160.

So really the root cause is going to be raw power getting to the wheels so apart from the obvious engine power boost maybe lighter wheels and/or lighter brake discs (not sure there are even any and even then if I'd want to compromise this part).

Increasing the tyre pressure can help reduce the rolling resisance a fair bit and worth getting the geo checked to get the toe to close to zero but this can compromise some corners.

Failing that it's going to be down to raw power - I think the engine itself is pretty sound and can be taken higher with a fair degree of safety. The weak point is pretty well known to be the gearbox and until somebody comes up with a turnkey cost effective replacement then theres not much we can do about this.

One interesting bit that I keep meaning to look at is seeing what kind of heat soak is getting into the intercooler as this will cut top end power. I've heard that some people have increased the size of the vents to get more airflow through the unit but no idea if this will help.

Sorry - bit of a rambling ess here... it's early and I've not had my second cup of tea yet so please excuse any rubbish in the above.

It would be nice if a 2-Eleven type car had a 175mph top speed - that would be very nice indeed

Assuming a current top speed of 150mph then youd need (using a wet finger in the air type formula) just over 400bhp to crack this!

[stephanie plum]

Thanks everyone - I appreciate the helpful comments and the time taken to reply

I'm glad it's not just me mourning the lack of top end power - Ads I'm not convinced about that top end 150mph - I don't think any UK circuit has a straight long enough to give us time to get there. 140mph would be nice though.

I might take a mosey down to MSC during the winter and have a chat. Scuffers has brought out a paddle shift box as well so that set me thinking.

I'll keep you all posted. Edika - would you mind if I asked to look at your car if it's still there?

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RE: Paddle shift - From what I remember I think (although could be wrong) that this is more a race unit. Not sure how it's going to behave on the road.

Sure I've seen 140 on hanger straight at silverstone but could easily be wrong as usually more focussed on the corner at the end than staring into the cokcpit and even then still have ferraris and porsches buzzing past.

I guess the only solution on the horizon would be MSC's conversion which if priced competitvely with other conversions and pushing out 390bhp then 500bhp/tonne would be er "interesting" to say the least. Shame you'd most probably have to dump the traction control with that kind of power!

[Edika]

MSC said at first that he could keep the LTC but I don't think he succeed on my car, I have no news about that.

He has had a lot of electronic problems between the dash and the engine sensor/ECU so I don't enven know if it's possible ...

He driving will be "manly"

[TheKevlarKid]

I've held off the ecu reflash to see if Lotus bring something better out - would I feel much difference if I went for that?

If your on about the factory 260 upgrade over the original 255 then yes it's well worth it...

The obligatory power testing we do for the elise trophy regs saw power at the hubs on my car raise from 212hp to 243hp (approx. 270hp at the f/w) with just the revised code installed. It's pretty widely known from the testing that Elise Trophy has done on the 2-11's that the original 255 code puts out no where near what it should.. (it's more like 235-240hp at the flywheel max).

Gav

[kiwi 2-11]

This is my issue with the 2-11 ...its just NOT fast enough. Its quick off the line, but I get seriously dealt to in a race here.

My class has Junos, Radicals etc, and Im mid field at best. Maybe its me...but I just cant get the staight line speed> I have the rigid tonneau and the upgraded ECU, and this makes it nicer to drive. I feel the 2-11 needs 300 HP+.

There are hardly enough Lotus's in NZ to warrant a Lotus only race.

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There is the 270 option in the lap brochure but this is a big kit and a fair amount of fitting.

The problem is always going to be the gearbox limits - it's pretty much at it's design capacity with 260-270bhp. So unless a kit can be offerred for this an engine swap is the only option .

[Simon M]

This is my issue with the 2-11 ...its just NOT fast enough. Its quick off the line, but I get seriously dealt to in a race here.

My class has Junos, Radicals etc, and Im mid field at best. Maybe its me...but I just cant get the staight line speed> I have the rigid tonneau and the upgraded ECU, and this makes it nicer to drive. I feel the 2-11 needs 300 HP+.

There are hardly enough Lotus's in NZ to warrant a Lotus only race.

Oh come on get serious. A Lotus 211 is a production road car that happens be a fine track car. A Juno is a serious purpose built race car (the Radical, allot less so) with significant advantages in every area of track performance over any Lotus, even a GT3 Exige.

Now, granted you can buy a very high spec Radical or Juno for what a 211 costs but I can tell you having raced both they are more expensive and significantl more time consuming to run than the 211. Sounds like you need to lobby for a more favourable rules structure.

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I think being in the same class as junos and radicals is a bit harsh - they have serious amounts of downforce and are slot lighter.

Be worth going through and comparing a few stats (top speed, laptimes, power to weight) of all the classes you are racing against and see if you can get the class altered.

[kiwi 2-11]

Simon/Ads,

Point taken...but to make matters worse, the Junos are in class below me ie they are N/A , so with my little supercharged car I have to compete with V8's ie 800hp TVR, Vipers etc. Bloody hard work!!! One consolation though, I can drive my car to the office every day

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Cross posted from seloc but I take it all back about the sequential box.

I want and I want it NOW!

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/trackdayvideos/244258/track_car_of_the_year_2009_lotus_2eleven_gt4.html

[Bibs]

That is so quick it doesn't look real! I really need to have a 2Eleven in my life!

[Scotty C]

don't we all.