Elite/Eclat/Excel Turbos?

[Mystery Machine]

I've spent quite a long time searching the forum but can't find any mention of any form of turbo engined Elite/Eclat/Excel?

Does anyone know of any cars out there with a turbo on them? Or any info on companies that did turbo conversions to these car? Maybe even a one-off homebrew job?

I've just bought a turbo Elite (907 engine with brand new internals & brand new turbo) but cannot find any info at all about any other cars with a blower. If anyone does have any info I'd really love to hear from them?

Many thanks,

Bruce.

[Mr_John111]

When we were looking for Sue's turbo esprit we went to Sportomotive in Salisbury and they had a black Excel that had a turbo engine.

Don't know if it was a professional job or home made but give them a call and they might remember the car?

John

Edited May 4, 2012 by Mr_John111

[Loose Cannon]

Just a guess, with having an Esprit turbo manifild and setup on yours it would be a home brew or conversion at a Lotus garage.

If it was a conversion by a turbo tuner "back in the day" (by someone like Turbo Technics, Avon or Allard etc) they usually had their own unique way of doing things

[andydclements]

If somebody attempted to use a Lotus turbo manifold the passenger may not like it. The turbo would be a glowing ball of fire in front of them in the dash of the passenger compartment. The alternative is to push the gasses forward then the turbo is close to the timing belt so the only real solution is to go radical and do something like modify the body so as to get more options open or go alternative parts.

I'd love to see some pics of how it goes together.

I'm just not sure if putting a turbo on a 2l engine is the best way, you've lost originality so you might as well go 250BHP form Mike's 2.5l Lotus engine conversion or a non-Lotus engine. I can only guess the conversion was done early in the car's existence when the better later non-turbo engines were not available. That is unless it was a Lotus trial car.

Andy

[Dunc]

I spend half my life on the net looking at elites and eclats. I have never seen a turbo car. Ask lotus bits. If there are others, they are likely to have seen them or know of them.

[mat grant]

Hi,

Interesting thread - I have a vague recollection of reading about the factory considering a turbo on the excel, the issues were lack of space and underbonnet temperatures, so it never happened. I think someone has built a supercharged excel with the charger where the aircon pump used to be. That might be a better route for the Elite/Eclat/Excel.

Cheers, Mat.

Edited May 8, 2012 by mat grant

[Mystery Machine]

Thanks for the comments guys. It would seem there is very little knowledge about any turbo conversions and even less info about any particular cars. I guess that's due to them being a tricky car to turbo.

Mine, as suggested, had the turbo tucked under the passenger footwell with a section of floor next to the transmission tunnel raised to accomodate it. Lots of heat shielding in the area!

It also had the chassis widened in that area too which is something I'm not too keen on....nor the fact that the turbo sat lower than any part of the car, using a scavenge pump to get the oil back into the sump. Suffice to say it's not going to be staying there but I will almost certainly be keeping the turbo set-up, just mounting it differently.

I'd love to see some pics of how it goes together.

I'm just not sure if putting a turbo on a 2l engine is the best way, you've lost originality so you might as well go 250BHP form Mike's 2.5l Lotus engine conversion or a non-Lotus engine. I can only guess the conversion was done early in the car's existence when the better later non-turbo engines were not available. That is unless it was a Lotus trial car.

I'll definitely get some pics of the current set-up (although I've currently got the turbo off the car) but I can't see any kind of logic in binning a freshly (and most likely VERY expensively) built engine then spending ??? much money on a 2.5/250bhp engine. It just seems like throwing money at the car when there is already a brand new engine in it that just needs some creative thinking to get the turbo set-up mounted in a more suitable position. Even though the block is a 907 (2.0) I have yet to establish if the guy who built the engine specced it up to a 2.2 turbo? After all, if he's spent all that money on brand new internals (and they are literally brand new!) then surely it would have made sense to build it to a spec suited to the turbo which was obviously fitted at the same time because that is also brand new.

I've already got the turbo side of things sussed and will be mounting it in a much more suitable location which makes a lot more sense and should actually be better in every respect.

I know these aren't the best photos but they are all I've got for now to give some idea of what is there:

Brand new shiny pistons (very hard to get the camera to focus down there!)

Brand new valve guides and valves

There's certainly been some headwork done:

It would seem a LOT of the car has been rewired (everything in the engine bay has been re-loomed along with the headlight wiring, the washer bottle....I can't find much trace of the original wiring loom but haven't looked too closely yet. Someone has spent a lot of time on this car in the past

Piranha ignition

Micro Dynamics EMS3 turbo management....although this and the Piranha will be replaced with something like Megasquirt or Megajolt along with a lot of the wiring.

Turbo plenum (although I'm sure most of you are familiar with this?)

Plenum cover....gotta love the Turbo casting!

Brand new IHI turbo!

The turbo will be residing somewhere in the engine bay when I've finished. I've worked out how to do it and I am pretty confident I can make it work well.

Like I say, why bin all this hard work and spend a silly amount of money on another engine when someone has already invested a great amount of time and money to get this far? I like a challenge and will do my best to make it happen, even if there are more powerful cars out there, that's not the point to me. I'm not chasing big BHP but simply wanting to finish what someone else started. There are a LOT of other interesting aspects to this car and I want it to live on in one way or another as a kind of tribute to the guy who got this far (and passed away some years ago, it would seem, before he could finish it)

Edited May 10, 2012 by Mystery Machine

[Loose Cannon]

Good luck, you've got some epic work ahead. Same as Dunc here, I've been looking at ads for Elites every day for the past 12 years and never seen a turbo conversion for sale. Safe to say they must be in single figures.

Wasn't a 2.5 engine from Lotusbits something like 12 grand? Not really an option on an old Elite, actually I'm amazed the deceased chap thought it worth investing anything on it, Elites have been derided for many years, with values on the floor.

You could break with originality and lose the dandelions out of the heater intake though (which actually does look a lot like a windowbox I've just noticed). Some nice geraniums to match the respray

[Mystery Machine]

You could break with originality and lose the dandelions out of the heater intake though (which actually does look a lot like a windowbox I've just noticed). Some nice geraniums to match the respray

I am very proud of my window box. I hate to admit it, but I even squirted some water in there the other day just to keep them green for the time being. It's a real conversation piece whenever any of my mates pop around to have a look at the car!

There was plenty of other growth and garden debris in varying states of compost that quite literally fell out of the lower half of the engine bay as I started removing things. There's quite a LOT of chassis in there too! This little lot alone was just under five bucket loads!!

When I say chassis, there really isn't a lot of it left. The steering rack is held in on the offside only by the column itself, it's mounts are simply floating in mid air!

The crossmember has completely eroded in half

As for the rear, that's not looking too pretty either. If you think this side is bad....

...then take a look at this side!

Suffice to say it's a bit unnerving being under there but I have it all in hand. Work starts in earnest fairly soon and hopefully things will start to take shape before too long (famous last words!).

As for keeping originality, I think I'd rather have an Elite I know I built how I like it than a totally original one that is there just to please the purists. After all, there are plenty of standard ones about to keep the majority happy.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Mystery Machine

[Bibs]

You do take most excellent pictures

[Loose Cannon]

For sure there will be a certain German gentleman along soon to comment on the condition of the un-galvanised chassis!

[esprit s2]

As Bibs say your pictures are brilliant! How do you get them looking so moody? All mine seem bland.

[Mystery Machine]

Thanks for the comments on the photos guys. EspritS2, I never really thought of them as moody but I just pull some of the colour out of them and add a slightly darker fading around the edges just to make the details stand out a bit more. If there's lots of colour your eye gets distracted (well I think so anyway)

Seeing as this thread seems to have concluded that there isn't much info available on turbo'd Elites I guess it's pretty much answered my question (and many thanks for the responses so far )

I might start a build thread in the Projects and Restorations section if anyone thinks the car is worthy of it? I know it's not up to the standard of most Elites, but it might prove some interest to someone out there. What do you think?

[esprit s2]

Well I would certainly be interested in seeing what you do with it!!

[mat grant]

The problem might be that when you take the body off, you may find some rust on the rear crossmember of the chassis.....

Actually joking aside - I think that is the rustiest elite chassis I've ever seen.

And if you've got the complete turbo installation, you might as well use it.... That is going to be a big job to get that thing back on the road! Good luck, I'll be interested to see it progress. Good to see someone with a project as crazy as my eclat....

Cheers, Mat.

Edited May 10, 2012 by mat grant

[TecknIX]

Hi Bruce,

Followed your story from the RetroRides forum, but figured I'd chime in here to get the gears going - It seems you were having some issues with the exhaust/turbo pipping and had removed powersteering to fit it.

I just wanted to set this mental picture in your head:

Basically you would run the exhaust pipes from the passenger to the driver side (going under the pan) and have the turbo sit in the driver side bay, where you seem to have plenty of room (a/c removed)

Not sure how much room you have under the car, but maybe this will spark something else!

Looking at this picture:

Maybe you could run it in that space between the crossmember and rear of the pan?

[frommerstop]

If you're planning on moving the turbo all the way over to the intake side of the engine, why stick with a turbo at all? In that case a supercharger would make much more sense. Having the turbo so far away from the manifold will severly diminish it's output, not to mention create signifigant lag - especially on a 4 cyl. Placing such a heat source directly under the carbs isn't a particularly good idea either.

Just saying...

Cliff

[TecknIX]

So what do you make of all the rear mounted turbos? I don't think lag or any of the output would be a problem for his power goals.

There would be a LOT of airflow around the turbo, instead of the most stuffed ones. A lot of heat protection could be applied to prevent any additional heat from being generated.

[frommerstop]

I've never heard of a really viable turbocharger mounted "in the rear", unless you are talking about the rear of the exaust manifold... like Lotus, Renault, Ferrari,Porsche etc. have all done for production as well as racung applications. Yes, I've seen a few "customs" built with turbos "stuck on" where ever they looked best, but those never perform well, at least not well enough for any manufacturer to even consider similar. Turbocharging is one possible engineering direction for improved performance, but it's not the only one, and often isn't the best one. One of the primary requirements of a practical turbocharger is that it has the lowest spinning mass possable for the needed boost, this is to allow minimal delay between engine speed changes, and turbine speed change.The proximity of the turbine to the source of combustion is even more critical, the (inevitable) delay increases exponetially as this distance increases because of temperature loss, and the "spring affect" of the compressable (exhaust gass) in transition between the two. In short, the farther you place the turbo away from the exhaust ports, the greater the "turbo lag", and the larger your turbo is, the greater affect this has because of it's greater moving mass. This is why any production car that has a turbo, uses the smalles one(s) possable, and typically mount them directly on the exhaust manifold(s).

...you don't even want to get me started on the heat issues! LOL!

Cliff

Edited May 17, 2012 by frommerstop

[Mystery Machine]

Thanks for all the input guys.

One thing I want to stress is that I will absolutely NOT be going the supercharger route. I am pretty sure this is a far more viable route to creating an effective power hike, but I have my reasons for wanting to stick with a turbo.

Firstly is the 'period correctness' of it all. Turbos in production cars were in their infancy when the Elite was around, only a few production vehicles around this time ran with turbos. Superchargers were more commonplace later on. I am aware that superchargers have been around a LONG time, but in car production terms, their use has generally followed later than the method of turbocharging. Fitting a supercharger to an Elite, although a much simpler excercise, is not 'right' to me.

It's also because I want to keep some of the 'legacy' of the car where someone in the past has gone to a hell of a lot of time, trouble and expense to turbocharge the car. I almost feel a personal responsibility to continue this for him and finish the car with a turbo fitted.

The biggest downside to that is the existing location of the turbo. Granted it's right on the end of the manifold and is in an optimum position in that respect, but it's also located in a way that the oil feed needs a seperate scavenge pump to get the oil back into the sump. The turbo is sat so low that a conventional gravity return for the oil is not possible.

The other downside of having the turbo in that existing location is how much lower is sits than the rest of the underside of the car. Maybe 20 years ago this wasn't too much of an issue, but nowadays with speedbumps and every worsening road conditions in this country I really don't want the turbo to be the first thing to get smashed if I hit something while driving the car. Plus I'll be lowering the car from its standard height so this will only become an even bigger issue regarding the turbo hanging so low out of the bottom of the car.

I have worked out a way to locate the turbo in the engine bay in front of the engine whilst still keeping the pipe run from the exhaust ports to a minimal lenght. I am well aware of the intricacies of moving the turbo further away from the engine but have plan that should mean keeping the engine turbocharged, having the turbo in a far more suitable location, keeping the pipe run only marginally longer than it currently is (negligable extra distance) and also gaining a number of other benefits along the way too (details of which will come as I get things moving)

Suffice to say I am confident the ideas I have will work and also work well. Anyone who knows me well enough will know that I thrive on a challenge and will do anything to make one of my ideas come to light. This is no exception and I will work long and hard to make this conversion as good as it can be.

I am not looking for crazy power, big boost, big lag etc....I am simply looking to make the car as the previous owner intended, but with some improvements to make it more practical and, dare I say is, useable. Waiting for a turbo to spool up before being hit with a big wall of boost is not my idea of usable. Having a properly designed turbo set-up that gives a nice smooth power delivery and and flexible power range is what I am hoping to achieve. I will more than likely not be using the IHI turbo that came with the car but instead will be getting a turbo made to my own exact specification using the basic housing from something like a Garrett GT28 or Mitsubishi TD-04 (or something else along those lines). Luckily I have a friend who does this for a living and knows more than he has any right to about turbo set-ups. Another friend who works for a Formula 1 team and cut his teeth on turbo systems....and quite a few other friends in the motor industry.

I don't profess, myself, to know an awful lot beyond the basic principles and practices, but I certainly have some good friends who are dying to get stuck into helping with this project. I hope not to rely on them too much but equally will listen to eveything they have to say along the way.

Thanks again for your input guys, it's much appreciated.

[frommerstop]

Bruce, first off, I want apologize if my post came across a bit harsh, it wasn't meant that way, but on reread, it may have sounded a bit condisending.

Like I said before, I've given this a bit of thought myself, and one possible solution if you must use a turbo, could be to reverse the exhaust manifold to put the turbo in front of the engine. Having a RHD vehicle does help a bit with space, and it may be possible to keep close to an Esprit turbo responce if you can make a tube manifold that (more or less) looks like a mirror image what Lotus used. Getting it low enough to clear the hood without burning up the timming belt would be the trick, as I see it. I didn't realize how low your turbo was mounted, I assumed they used a Lotus turbo manifold off an Esprit. Heck, on a RHD car like your's, I think that might have worked! - putting the turbo somewhere in the glovebox area. My reasons for suggesting a blower instead, were based on simpicity, and under hood temp control, but if you have enough determination (and money), I'm sure you can make it work. I'm looking forward to reading about your progress, I'm not opposed to learing from some one else, and I'm not quite ready to pull the trigger on such a conversion on mine yet.

It sounds like a really cool project!

Cliff