'78 Elite 504

[makepeace]

So...

 

I acquired this old space ship the other day:

 

 

Very much looking forward to having my first go at restoring a car! I'm a 3rd year electro-mechanical engineering student, so this kind of thing is right up my alley. I've never really known much about the intricate details - so looking forward to learning about these things too.

 

The car mostly needs cosmetic attention, but there are also a couple of other electrical, carburettion and mechanical bugs to be sorted out. Also, the licence hasn't been paid in a while - so some strings to pull on that end too.

 

Some more pics:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those were all taken by the place that was keeping it.

 

Here it is coming over the river (backwards) and up the hill into the workshop (courtesy of Mom ):

 

 

 

So it has the winking headlight issue, no battery, and is in pretty average cosmetic state. But, its had about R20 000 (around 2000 euros) worth of work done on it, so apparently it runs, but will get a battery to check this out at some point. Supposedly the idle isn't great intake/carbs will need a look at.

 

Couple of questions to start me off:

 

Does anyone know where I can get a workshop and or parts manual for this guy?

Would preferably like it in PDF format so as not to have to wait a couple of weeks from ebay or whatever. We're far away down here in the Cape.

 

Next, (and this is embarrassing). Does anyone know how to open the bonnet?

Have looked around both foot wells and can't find any clues.

 

Last, I saw the battery terminals are at the back of the car so assume the battery goes in the boot somewhere? Does anyone know how to open the boot, because this is also confounding me.

 

Thanks and more to come soon! Will try get some better photos!

 

[Emmerg]

Looks nice - interior especially so.   

[Dunc]

Firstly, Welcome to TLF!

 

bonnet pull is low down on the right hand side footwell, its a cable operated lever that bolts to the footwell.

 

The car looks to be in really good condition!

 

I'm sure your going to make it into a great car.

[makepeace]

thanks for the welcome and comments!

 

found the bonnet lever, thanks! someone that worked on the car before left it on the other side of the panel o.O. also managed to find the boot lever next to the rear right passenger seat.

 

all going good so far!

[Loose Cannon]

You have to ford a river to get home every day, cool! Your mum looks a bit edgy about it though!

 

Looks like a good solid project car that has had some money spent on it. Best of luck,

 

The parts manual is available free online;

 

http://www.rdent.com/manuals/index.html

 

Full workshop manuals come up on ebay from time to time, but this is a simple car and pretty obvious, the above site is 95% of the info you want.

[makepeace]

Nah, river between home and the workshop was just flooded. She definitely wasn't chuffed with the idea, but apparently quite proud of herself afterwards!

 

Thanks for the tips on manuals Threadkiller. Have had a bit of a look at those diagrams and parts listings - but I think I may need something more descriptive so will have a look for ebay manuals. I remember seeing a PDF version for sale a while back (which would be ideal) but haven't been able to find it again.

 

Anyway - have been reading up on the running issue:

What we were told is that it starts and idles - but when you try to give it gas it gurgles/doesn't run well and sometimes dies.

 

What I've gleaned from reading is either:

• there are vacuum leaks
• the jetting is bad
• the auto governor is a bit funny
• the kick down system is a bit funny

Apparently the carbs and the heads have been rebuilt.

 

Any other ideas or has anyone had any similar problems with carburetted automatics?

 

Have exams coming up - so probably shouldn't get a battery just yet as it might not bode well for my education :/. But will give it a go afterwards.

 

Cheers for now

[mat grant]

wow nice workshop!

[eclat22]

Fuel starvation, rusty fuel tank and not enough volume of fuel getting through?remove fuel pipe at carbs and run fuel pump to see how much fuel is being delivered to carbs, obviously be carefully doing this due to fuel vapour.

Edited October 20, 2013 by eclat22

[makepeace]

Thanks for the advice Dan! Will definitely put that on the list of things to try. Apparently the tank has been relined - so not sure about that - but I guess the lines could probably be clogged.

[cdfps]

I have a 504 elite.  Mine has the Stromberg cd 175 carbs fitted to the Federal models.   Even if the tank was coated I still think Dan is right on track that it is fuel related.  

 

On engines that have unconfirmed provenance I always like to get some baseline readings to figure out what I have.  I would do a compression test, a vacuum test, and a fuel pressure test.

 

The compression test is because the heads were purportedly refurbed which you would want to check.  Also if there was a ring problem it would good to know this before spending any time on the upper parts of the engine.

 

The vacuum test will tell a lot about the valves and with the dual carb setup it will tell even more about the valves.

 

The fuel pressure test will tell about the pump and filter. ( I would certainly do the flow test as well)

 

Keep the pictures coming.

[Tocus]

if you are searching for parts, i am the guy you need,

i still have enough parts for sale, so just send me a PM message what you need, and i will think i can help you,

 

i also help other elite/eclat/excel owners how are searching for parts on this forum,

 

keep up the good work!, car looks very good on the pictures,

do you still have the airbox?

[makepeace]

Thanks Tocus, still have the airbox and all associated parts so should be good on that front, but will let you know if there is anything special I need! Mostly will try source parts locally here in South Africa for obvious reasons, but I'm sure I'll be needing some speciality parts down the line.

 

Hoookay! Update time

 

Have since gone through all of the spares that came with the car and done some more investigation.

 

Resurrected an old battery and hooked it up and found some electrics in order, but loads of non-functioning systems. The wiring is a mess all round - so that will need some special attention at some stage.

 

Found the neglected fuel pump (previous guys that did work used an electric downstream pull pump right next to carb) and rebuilt it. It was really bad - completely varnished up. Put in some new 95, flushed the fuel system and no gunge came out so everything clear that side. Fuel pressure seems good, but I haven't measured it. The pump seems to be making all the right noises so its assumed for the moment that all is ok upstream of carbs.

 

Removed plugs and sprayed a bit of penetrating spray down the cylinders - turned over engine which pointed out that the starter works and everything is rotating freely which is great!

 

Connected fuel line up to carbs and tried to run - no joy. So, squirted some fuel down the carb throats and it roared to life after a couple of turns!..for about the whole of 6 seconds. Revved all the way up to about 5krpm and died (throttle panned). This whole cycle is repeatable. Oh well.. I'm claiming it as a start!

 

This suggests to me that fuel is not making it from the fuel supply through the carbs, but is making it from the carbs to the cylinders.

 

Any ideas? Can only think that there is something gummed up in the carbs. Plan at the moment is to rebuild and set up the carbs with some help from the net. Gives me the opportunity for the first cosmetic work too.

 

Pics to follow soon!

[Loose Cannon]

If the carbs are varnished/gummed bite the bullet and strip/clean completely or they will be the bane of your life. Also check the fuel pump is the right one, pressure does not need to be terribly high (4psi rings a bell) otherwise you will just be risking leaks.

[Dunc]

Have you checked that the floats are moving the valve to allow the bowls to fill?

 

here is a good article that will give you the gist of what you are dealing with:

 

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/1048-setting-dhla-dellorto-dellorto-float-fuel-level/

[makepeace]

Thanks for the comments!

I think the fuel pump is the right one, it's the original SU AUF 300 series. Assume it was discarded because it was all gummed up. Rebuilt it seems to be working fine.

Thanks for that link Dunc, I'm sure it will be very useful! There seems to be quite a bit of info on these carbs on the net, so I should be able to manage a rebuild and set up

Took the covers off the carb and discovered a whole lot of old yellow fuel in the bowls (the new fuel I put in was green). Inlet banjos are pretty clean, but filters are a little dirty. Floats look to be set up fine by eye, but will get a proper checkout at some point. Float valve also looks clean. Checked out the jets and they are all to spec, but in a terrible state. Idle jets completely varnished up and clogged - couldn't even clear them with high pressure air. Choke and main jets are passing fluid but are also quite gummy. I'd imagine the chambers are also all gummed up.

So a full strip and clean and potentially some part replacement it is. Going to order a rebuild kit and some spares in the meantime.

[Dunc]

parafin can work wonders. I put a cupfull in the tank every now and then to keep things clean.

 

It is the main cleansing ingredient in most of the injector cleaners (about 85% of the volume), along with some other items like acetone (nail varnish remover).

 

Parafin and a toothbrush.

[The Nut]

Jono,

Hi, welcome to the mad house.

 

Have you checked the fuel isolation valve its on the leg of the chassis just to the rear of the engine, easy to find , just follow the fuel line, it operates with the ignition on and allows fuel to the carbs,  I had three fail in succession and ended up buying a new one from SJ's. also worth overhauling the petrol pump and checking flow.

 

Have fun with the car

John

[makepeace]

Hi all.

Whew - it's been a while! I've been sidetracked by life for the past couple of years, but have made it my 2018 resolution to get this thing on the road! There are some complications with the registration of the vehicle here in South Africa that I have been avoiding dealing with. Car was previously owned by someone who let the license fees go into arrears, car's registration got "archived", and now have to trace the ownership including letters of no interest from all previous owners (3) before me before I can get the registration reinstated, pay the outstanding fees and penalties and get it re-registered in my name. All of this before a roadworthy test can even happen. Anyway, have gotten onto that admin and have established contact with 2 of the previous owners before me, so that should end up being quite smooth.

I have a question. I managed to get the car running again today (still haven't rebuilt the carbs, but I have ordered the rebuild kit and I plan to get this done in the next week or so). I noticed when I took the carbs off that the distributor (Lucas 25D)'s vacuum diaphragm had broken off the body. It was epoxied back on, but the spring was detached from the clip inside the distrib - and the thing pulled right out after I knocked it with a spanner while trying to get the carbs off.

I'm looking at getting a new distributor, as this one is in pretty bad shape. Cap is pretty loose, and this broken vacuum diaphragm is worrying me.

What I am curious about is whether this distrib in company with the gummed up carbs is the running issue of this thing. I noticed some of the models came out with distribs that either had the vac blanked off, or don't have vac retard at all (ie Lucas 23D4). My question is, can I just get a distrib with no vac (ie 23D4)? As far as I've read, the vac is just a timing retarder to waste fuel and burn cleaner due to Fed regs, however mine is a Euro spec and emissions are pretty lax here in SA. Anything to get this thing to run like it wants to!

My car's details are as follows: Engine no. DM7760813014, Chassis no. 08078A, Unit no. 04L05047611007. I've been trying to identify the specs according to the decoding info given in the service manual, however my numbers don't seem to match up to the code.

Would appreciate any advice!

Elite1.atif.tif

Edited December 29, 2017 by makepeace
thank you for advice

[makepeace]

Okay, some progress made. Carbs are clean as a whistle, and ready to be re-assembled, but for some caveats.

While I was going over the control elements, I discovered that one of the needle valves was a 150, as opposed to the other which is 170. Read up that for my spec 5 engine, 170 is the spec. Fortunately my rebuild kit came with 2 x 170 valves, so that's a win.

Next, I discovered that the pump jets were found to be 45's. According to the spec, they should be 38V 42H! Having done some scrounging, these were an experimental option, and are no longer available. Gary at Eurocarb recommended I go with a 50 or a 60. Ordered 60s, as I'd rather have too much pump action than too little - as this engines main problem is keeping up under acceleration. I suspect I will probably end up settling on 55 at the end, but the funds allowed for one set at a time.

Also bought some of the oval K&N type air filters for the meantime, as a bit of work needs to be done on the air box.

Decided to also go for the spec 23D4 distributor which I am having made up to spec by IgnitionCarParts.co.uk.

Another thing that needs doing before I can get through roadworthy is to add a left side mirror and fix the indicators and hooter. I ordered the supposedly correct spec Lucas indicator and hooter switch assembly and eBay, and the black Fiat mirrors that very similar to the standard chrome options. Will probably have them chromed at some point.

Looking forward to hearing from the traffic department.

[clivef38]

I think that some were  on this site there is a breakdown of chassis numbers. Other than that try mike at Lotusbits . Might take some time if you email him. Phone is better for us in the UK. 

Good luck.

[TAR]

The engine number DM7760813014 breaks down as:

D=1976-1980 European E cams

M - Auto, A/C & PAS

7 - 907 engine

76/08 - August 1976

number 13014

I'm not sure about your other numbers. Are you sure they are complete and correct?

 

 

[makepeace]

Thanks for the tips! All the numbers are complete and correct - I was just having an issue interpreting the first 7 as being 907, according to the docs it should say "907", not just 7. In any case, thanks for the interpretation! Didn't realize the car was born in the same month as me!

I actually was being a dork and forgetting to read the Technical Data section in the workshop manual WRT the distributor specs. Everything is there loud and clear. Spec 5 says 23D4 distributor. Have given the curve info to the shop and they are making a repro for me. Exciting times.

Team photo getting ready for a rebuild.

Still need to get my pump jets, but I think I'll do the rest in the meantime.

Oh, and here are some belated (bad) photos of the interior - looks in really good condition, and leather is a plus. Just needs a bit of a recondition.

You can also see the broken indicator switch in the photo there. The parts were missing, so I figured a better bet to just get a replacement altogether.

[makepeace]

I finally managed to get the engine running smoothly!

I replaced the distributor (which was an errant 25D with a broken vacuum diaphragm and various other distrustful issues) with the correct spec 5 23D4, which was correctly profiled by the guys at Ignition Car Parts (thanks!). Also, I completely rebuilt the carbs, and replaced the damaged and not to spec accelerator pump jets with size 60 jets (the original spec for spec 5 called for  H42 V38 experimental jets that you can't get hold of anymore).

After setting the timing correctly and balancing the carbs, she runs pretty perfectly! 

Thisis a big step as I was wondering whether it would be viable to fork out the ~R10k to get the registration reinstated. Seems like it's a go!

See the video here!

Next is sorting out the various niggles that I need to for getting it roadworthy, and paying up to get the registration reinstated and transferred into my name.

 

[Dunc]

ooooh! shiny carbs :-)

Nice smooth idle. Was she cold or warm in the video?

Good to hear its progressing and that your happy :-)

[makepeace]

2 hours ago, Dunc said:

ooooh! shiny carbs :-)

Nice smooth idle. Was she cold or warm in the video?

Good to hear its progressing and that your happy :-)

She was pretty warmed up (a bit too warm actually as I've discovered the fans have stopped working). I think I knocked a connector off at some point.