Front Brake Replacements?

[DaKa]

At the Lotus Festival 2013 Brands Hatch 'PNM' engineering offered me a deal on replacement calipers/discs for the front of my 1987 HC Excel - that came with a kit to enable a straight swap.

 

I had recently replaced the front discs with new slotted ones so declined the offer.

 

Although my brakes are good (flew through MOT) they are lacking compared to modern car standards. Perhaps other Excels are better - I have no comparison to check.

The brake pedal bites reasonably quickly and it stops at speed intially quickly, but the annoying things is that the last few yards of stopping below 10 mph seems to require a lot of push on the pedal- are all Excels like this?   

 

Has anyone fitted the kit from PNM - did it make a difference and was it a straight swap?

I guess that I'm worried that if I change the calipers/discs etc, the brakes may only marginally improve and it may also be frowned upon by Lotus enthusiasts who like originality. 

 

I can see a lot of posting previously about brakes/servos etc, but nothing seems to detail my particular issues.

 

Thxs

 

 

 

 

 

[miJ]

Hi I  have an 85 SE . When I bought it the brakes worked , but in poor condition . I have fitted new standard discs all round, along with recon calipers and new standard pads and a MC kit . I seem to be alone in thinking that the brakes perform very well and seem to do what is expected of them .I have no notice your problem , I will pay more attention next time I am out o see if I can replicate it .  Could your problem be the master cylinder ,perhaps further down the bore is worn ?

[DaKa]

Thanks, I'm also thinking it could be the master cylinder.

Although I know there are kits for refurbishing, I would probably just get a new one. Identifying the bits to replace or repair is the difficult bit!

I guess that I should confess that when I replaced the front discs I retained the old pads as they were only slightly worn green stuff pads. I've done about 500 miles since then with deliberate hard braking to bed the old pads into the new discs, but on reflection, I probably should have changed them and it could be a factor here?

I think at some point in the history of my car it had the brakes worked on, I find that the pedals clutch/brake are too close together for my liking and I also notice the brake lights don't do out instantly when the brake pedal is released, suggesting that something is sticking somewhere. 

I will wait and see if any other ideas come forward, otherwise Pads and Master Cylinder before Easter.

[miJ]

I am a fan of standard  stuff , again I seem to be alone on this preference .I know things have moved on and better materials are available , but I also think Lotus (and Toyota) knew a thing or two . This is what I fitted . Regarding the MC you may find it is obsolete . I think Lotus Bits have re-manufactured it .

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281144823608?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400401573496?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 Master cylinder kits

Past parts 01284 750729 . They have re-manufactured ones . If your cylinder has the 'cable tie' with numbers on it this will identify your cylinder . £20 plus post and vat . They even threw in the cylinder to servo seal .

Here are some numbers for you
My tag number 66163 (late 1985 SE)
Girling part no. SP(service part )7684
Past parts no 17/2032

[andydclements]

If you don't mind moving from originality then:

Nissan 200sx 300z callipers with 2mm machined off a surface and 2mm machines off one side of the casting (doesn't materially weaken them)

Peugeot 406/ Citroen 283mm discs with the centres bored out to fit the Toyota hubs.

Slightly different copper brake pipe from calliper to flex.

Small bracket to mount end of flexi.

 

Job done.

[DaKa]

Great advice/Info - can't believe how cheap those new pads are on ebay. Thxs

[DaKa]

Things are better with my front brakes, but still a bit of fade - I'm sticking with the original brakes for now.

I'm looking to clean up the front calipers and wondered if anyone thinks that the caliper service kit circa £30 is money well spent, or should I just clean up what is there?

 

Also, Lotus recommend replacing the braided brake hoses after a period?

Mine are clearly several years old - do you feel this a good £50 spent on a set?

 

Finally, Standard or EBC Green stuff pads - will I actually notice the difference?

I cover less than 1,000 miles a year purely social.

Do the regular pads stop just as quick? If EBC stop the car marginally quicker then I prefer to pay the extra to fit against my new slotted discs.

[miJ]

I fitted stainless flexi hoses .They are supposed to give a firmer pedal . Relatively small investment to see if it helps , and if yours are old ....

Jim 

[USAndretti42]

Braided hoses don't last for ever as they are rubber hoses inside the braid so the brake fluid will soften them over time.

How sure are you that there is no air in the system.

[mikeeech]

just going along the "air in the system" line... have you ever thought of silicone fluid? perhaps there is water in the old fluid

[DaKa]

Thanks gents, I've drained through a litre of DOT4 previously one brake at a time, front and back using a bleeding valve kit, so fairly comfortable that there is little or no air in the system. The pedal is very firm and starts high up, but it requires continued increased presssure and/or a real stamp to bring the car to an abrupt stop - I get the feeling that it would need to be wet for me to lock the brakes up/skid.

I will replace the braided hoses as that will also require another bleed of the system.

 

What do you think of Green Stuff EBC versus Regular Pads?

[DaKa]

Does anyone know if the front cailpers below are right for my Lotus Excel 1985? 

 

 

 

[TonyPoll]

The Excel and Toyota Celica RA61 share the same capilers.

I recently replaced mine with Toyota Celica RA61 calipers.

[miJ]

Isn't it Toyota MA61 used on the Excel . I do not know if RA61 is the same ?

[DaKa]

Thanks Jim - I will double check with supplier when I buy, but as Tony mentions that he has actually fitted RA61 and not MA61 to his excel, then that sounds good enough for me!

[andydclements]

RA 61 and MA 61 both use the same callipers, so both are used on the Excel (and Esprits of similar age).

[DaKa]

Thanks - that's good to know.

I'm waiting on a working day to get some answers from the suppliers 'cheapbrakecalipers.co.uk', but my research on the interweb suggests that the RA61 is most alike what is on the car (and that advertised on SJS) but that the MA61 would, as you say, also fit.

Out of curiosity is the RA63 slightly bigger?

 

 

[miJ]

Hi

I fitted MA61 to my Excel SE , front and back , recon . From

http://www.carfactorsuk.co.uk/Default.aspx?page=C

I paid £65 each inc VAT and deliver . You get £15 back on each old one you return

Jim