Transmission

[watership down]

Last Friday, 06/10/06 I was driving home from work in the Esprit when I decided to call in at a grocery store. I picked up a few things and drove up to the traffic lights at the exit. As I drove away from the light I slipped it into 2nd gear took it up to 4500rpm and changed ito 3rd as I put my foot on the accelerator the engine just revved up with no drive to the rear wheels. I could hear some jangling coming from the box/drive train so I took it out of gear, put the clutch pedal down and put it into 3rd again, same thing no drive. I was on a main highway so I had to coast into a Vetinary's car park. I checked underneath to see if the casing was ok but there was no oil visible on the floor. I had a clutch put in last year so I don't think its that. I had it towed to the garage who does my work and his first thought was the clutch had come apart internally. I think it may be the crown wheel or the spigot shaft gear. I don't have an exploded view of the transmission so I am not sure what the drive train looks like inside. I will know a little more when the gearbox is removed from the car. I will keep you posted. By the way does anyone have any clues on what it might be. Lets see who is correct.

[CNH]

Is it just 3rd or all gears no power?

If it is no power all gears, pre Renault trannys have been known to lose a small plastic part that will give that particular symptom. It allows the input shaft to bore the metal a bit and cause the input shaft to slip out of its normal position. If I were you I would have a chat Mike Greise or Tim Engel from the turbo list as both have had a lot of experience with the C boxes and have taken them apart many times. Give me your email and I will forward it to them.

Calvin

[tbeggan]

Ivan, as you know, you've got the Citroen C35 transaxle, as do I. There's an acknowledged weakness in the Crown Wheel and Pinion, so it's natural to suspect it, but I really doubt that's what you're experiencing here. I'm very hopeful that your issue is something entirely less serious.

If it were the CWP, or frankly any major gear issue inside the Citroen box, it would have developed over time, not instantaneously, with no obvious abuse. The CWP, typically starts as an annoying whine that gets louder and louder. Eventually it'll start to grind with horrible crunching noises and then you loose your drive.

I believe you've experience a fairly common problem with the gear shift linkage. If I recall correctly, the unit uses a rod linkage for forward/rearward gear changes and a cable for right/left changes. Since you've lost everything all at once, I suspect your linkage rod has come undone. Put the car on a lift and check the linkage. It should be an easy diagnosis if that's the issue. Obviously, there's a linkage connection back at the transaxle that's easily visible from beneath the car, and another linkage up in the cabin beneath the gear shift lever. For the gear shift linkage, you'll need to disassemble the structure around the gear shifter to get a clean view, but it's not a big job either way.

Let us know if that's the issue.

Good Luck,

Tom Beggan

87 HCi

New Hampshire USA

[CNH]

Here is the details of what I was trying to explain in the earlier post as described by Dave Cammack from the local MN Lotus club.

Calvin

My guess, and I hope I'm wrong, would be that when they did the clutch they

didn't replace the Nylatron washer and the input shaft has come loose and is

boring into the crankshaft until the splines on the input shaft finally let go.

The input shaft on the citroen tranny is held in by a small, and I do mean

very small, circlip on the inside of the primary shaft. The input shaft/primary

shaft interface is splined and there's a spring inside that is pushing them

apart. This small circlip keeps them from coming apart. Lotus added a Nylatron

washer at the front of the shaft to act as a bearing that keeps the input

shaft from wearing against the back of the flywheel. If you don't know its

supposed to be there its easy to leave out when your doing a clutch, and if that

circlip fails which is also pretty common then the spring pushes the inpit shaft

against the back of the flywheel. Now whenever the flywheel and input shaft

have different speeds they grind at each other and the input shaft ends up

machining is way into the crank shaft and pilot bearing. The further the input

shaft burrows into the crank the less spline is engaged between the input shaft

and primary shaft and eventually the engaegement gets so short that it fails

under power.

Its a real mess and can be very difficult to get apart in the car. Best to

take the engine and tranny out of the car together because the input shaft will

stay in the engine and not come off with the transmission and you cant get

the tranny back far enough to get it off while its in the car.

Hope I'm wrong...

DaveC

[tbeggan]

Here is the details of what I was trying to explain in the earlier post as described by Dave Cammack from the local MN Lotus club.

Calvin

My guess, and I hope I'm wrong, would be that when they did the clutch they

didn't replace the Nylatron washer and the input shaft has come loose and is

boring into the crankshaft until the splines on the input shaft finally let go.

Hope I'm wrong...

DaveC

Dave,

Are there any warning signs that this failure has occured or is occuring? Are there sounds, or symptoms? And, if the nylatron thing was left out, how long would it take to fail? Is this a 500 mile thing, or a 10,000 mile thing? Just curious.

Tom Beggan

87 HCi

New Hampshire USA

[dazmans3]

A friend of mine had a knocking sound which ended up in the shaft damaging the crank. This ended in a engine rebuild, with out trying to sound too gloomy.

The baring mentioned is the spigot baring, & fitted to the S3 & S3 turbos up to 87 with the Citroen boxes. However was upgraded for the HC engines for the Stevens cars. So not sure what the G car HC's or US spec HC's would be fitted with, probably the earlier version. The earlier baring is just a needle baring & is prone to drying up or easily damaged, esp if the circlip or the nylon washer is missing as has been described.

One way to tell if this could be the problem, is with the engine running, partially dip the clutch with just your socks or bear feet. You may feel a vibration & if so could be an indication that the spigot is on its way out. I can email you photos if you need a closer look at.

Hope this helps

Daz

Hampshire UK

[CNH]

Dave,

Are there any warning signs that this failure has occured or is occuring? Are there sounds, or symptoms? And, if the nylatron thing was left out, how long would it take to fail? Is this a 500 mile thing, or a 10,000 mile thing? Just curious.

Tom Beggan

87 HCi

New Hampshire USA

I don't know how often Dave visits this site as he is mostly on the yahoo lotus/turbo lists. If you want talk to him I would suggest the turbo list. I got a hold of Dave through our MN Lotus club list ($12/year members only) where Tim Engel, Mike Griese, Dave Cammack, and Keen Young can be found. I also posted the e-mail of the author of this thread on the club list calling for assistance as these people are the best I have seen with G cars to date.

But the ones I have heard of this happening and knowing of one local car that has this happened to, it comes about sometime around 6 months to a year depending the usage. So I think it maybe a few K miles kind of thing. I believe that the one local car had the clutch done at an actual Lotus dealership of all places and the Nylatron washer was left out, others maybe reused the old ones and they came apart. Although I was not present when failure occured I would say there was little or no warning before the event occured as most were after clutch replacement, were pretty veteran Lotus drivers, and I would think they would know how and what a Esprit should behave and sound like. Tim Engel was the person to that discovered the cause of this type failure locally and put out an advisory to our Lotus club of the importance of this very small nylatron washer. The input shaft act just like a drill and bores forward. Once this happens the only thing to do is to take the engine and transmission out as a unit as that is the only way to seperate the units.

Calvin

[CNH]

Let's all hope this problem is a simple fix and not the problem as described.

If it is the owner of this car is in for fight with the mechanic over who is going to pay for this repair.

The clutch was done last year and the problem is not really with the clutch. Not sure how our local guy that had this problem resolved this issue with the dealership.

According to Dave C if it is the Nylatron washer that caused the input shaft to bore the crank it will be easy to tell as it would be near impossible to just drop the transmission as it has to be backed out and there is not enough room to do that with the engine in the car.

Calvin

BTW the local car this happened to was an US fed 88 Stevens car with is the same as an 87 G car

Edited October 14, 2006 by CNH

[dsvitesse1]

Last Friday, 06/10/06 I was driving home from work in the Esprit when I decided to call in at a grocery store. I picked up a few things and drove up to the traffic lights at the exit. As I drove away from the light I slipped it into 2nd gear took it up to 4500rpm and changed ito 3rd as I put my foot on the accelerator the engine just revved up with no drive to the rear wheels. I could hear some jangling coming from the box/drive train so I took it out of gear, put the clutch pedal down and put it into 3rd again, same thing no drive. I was on a main highway so I had to coast into a Vetinary's car park. I checked underneath to see if the casing was ok but there was no oil visible on the floor. I had a clutch put in last year so I don't think its that. I had it towed to the garage who does my work and his first thought was the clutch had come apart internally. I think it may be the crown wheel or the spigot shaft gear. I don't have an exploded view of the transmission so I am not sure what the drive train looks like inside. I will know a little more when the gearbox is removed from the car. I will keep you posted. By the way does anyone have any clues on what it might be. Lets see who is correct.

Hello, I think you have lost all the splines inside the primairy axle and on the clutchshaft.

It happens quite often, even here in the DS

regarDS,

Harry Martens

www.ds-vitesse.com

Ps if anybody is interested in a LSD for the Citroen gearbox let me know, and I will send you some pictures.

It is not available yet but might be in the near future.

[CNH]

The following was clipped from the MN Lotus club site:

From the description of the problem, I'm afraid Dave is right. That

washer has one other function. The input shaft is spring loaded

from the primary shaft in the gearbox. Not only does the washer

act as a bearing between the crank and the input shaft, but it

also relieves some of the pressure of the spring on that wimpy

circlip. I think the purpose of the circlip is to retain the input

shaft just long enough to get the gearbox and engine mated.

There isn't much else in that area that would cause

a big loss of drive without a lot of additional drama.

--

Mike

Its unclear to me whether the nylatron washer or the circlip is what

actually does the job of holding the input shaft back. One is the backup for the

other and both are kind of a weak link. When I measured one it appeared the

circlip was taking the load in assembly but it is so close and my measurement

crude enough that I could easily believe it is the other way around which

seems the more logical choice. The problem is that the pilot bearing in those

cars is a skimpy little needle bearing, and so the input shaft ends up pushing

against the outer race of the bearing, hence the need for a nylatron washer

to act as a bearing between them. The Fix is to replace the pilot bearing

with a good sealed ball bearing like the one used with the Renault tranny in the

later Esprit but with an ID appropriate to the Citroen input shaft. Then

the input shaft rests against the inner race of the bearing and has no

differential speed. negating the need for the nylatron washer as anything other than

a spacer. It could be nylatron or steel and not be an issue. This does

require having the crank shaft machined to accept the larger bearing but he most

likely has damaged the back of the crank at this point already and it will

need to be machined anyway. The bearing is an off the shelf item and

relatively cheap, actually much cheaper than the wimpy little needle bearing that is

in there now and a huge improvement in durrability.

Dave

It failed in 3rd. He pulled it out of gear, depressed the clutch

and tried 3rd again. Still no good. Did he ever try any other

gear?

If he has drive in any other gear, Then it's not the input shaft

spline or the CWP. In that case, I would suspect the little

finger that hangs down from the cross-shaft to engage the internal

shift rails may have bent or broken off. That would prevent

engagement of one or two gears, but all others would still work.

That's a relatively easy fix that can be done without removing the

transaxle from the car. Just remove the top cover.

If drive is gone in all gears, then the problem is probably one of

four things:

1) The input shaft spline that has already been mentioned has a

high degree of probability. Especially if the Nylatron thrust

washer was omitted after the new clutch was installed. For the

most part, the Esprit is just another car and it doesn't require

any particular knowledge to work on one. Except for a few things

like this.

The Nylatron thrust washer is unique (odd ball) but very

important. You just need to know it belongs there and absolutely

don't forget to install it. The average mechanic wouldn't expect

anything like that and wouldn't notice if it was missing.

The chicken or the egg discussion shouldn't be about whether the

circlip or the Nylatron washer is more critical. They both need to

be present or there's trouble coming. If you wish to rank them,

then the circlip is critical and the thrust washer is necessary.

Small difference.

If the circlip fails, it's almost certain damage will occur. The

thrust washer will buy you some time (with no warning signs of

trouble) before it wears out and the input shaft begins to do real

damage to the crank

[CNH]

delete double post

Edited October 16, 2006 by CNH

[watership down]

OK. Here's what has happenned. The splines on the spigot shaft where it fits inside the gearbox has stripped. The circlip has come off because you can pull the shaft out of the gearbox. The gearbox has not been stripped down yet so I don't know if there is anymore damage (fingers crossed). You guys were spot on with the diagnostics,many thanks. I will advise on the outcome.

[Esprit Aviation]

Many years ago I had to separate the engine/ gearbox for some reason in my '85 Turbo. At the time, I had spoken to Michael Rodrigeuz or someone else about this type of problem. Their solution to the nylon (weak) washer was to machine a washer from some type of material that was much stronger. At the moment I can't recall what the material was but I'll try to look up some old notes. Anyway, whoever it was, sent me one of the uprated washers and I have run the same one ever since. This was @ least in 1993-94, I've separated the engine/ trans 4 times since then and it is looking and functioning flawlessly!

The important part is that I have left the circlip out completely since that washer went in!!!

I believe the circlip merely prevents the shaft from falling out of the box upon removal- nothing more. The washer is meant to carry the load of the shaft spring!!

Really, it's not alot of fun to keep removing the damn thing and re-installing it anyway!!

Perhaps Harry may put the matter to rest, as to the function of the two pieces.

Cheers, Lee

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

Lee - Any possibility of some speedy info on the Nylatron washer substitute?

Either the material or the dimensions (or did you just give them a new Washer and ask them to replicate it from the harder material?)

Sorry to be a pain but I'm really on the clock!

[Esprit Aviation]

Robin,

Many years ago, I believe Michael Rodrigues, who is a member on this forum, provided me w/ the uprated bushing/washer.

As I recall, it may have been made out of a harder material, similar to carbon fibre, but it didn't seem to have any fibre in it, just a solid piece.

I will try my best to get more info ASAP.

Cheers, Lee

[Esprit Aviation]

Robin,

I tried tracking Michael down, but to no avail.

I did speak to JAE and they believe it is indeed the nylatron washer that is the newer material that I have. I think the original material was delrin, a white colored plastic.

Is there anyone out there that can confirm this??

Lee

[trackmagic]

Delrin might make an ideal substitution. Given that the original was nylon it was probably supposed to have some give. Bronze might also work since it is soft.

Good Luck,

Jeff

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

Thanks guys

[USAndretti42]

Note that Delrin is the name for a range of plastics with a range of properties as you can see on this DuPont site. Some will work way better than others.

[mchlrodrigues]

OK. Here's what has happenned. The splines on the spigot shaft where it fits inside the gearbox has stripped. The circlip has come off because you can pull the shaft out of the gearbox. The gearbox has not been stripped down yet so I don't know if there is anymore damage (fingers crossed). You guys were spot on with the diagnostics,many thanks. I will advise on the outcome.

Sorry I'm coming into this midstream, you got the washer from me. I had a few made from some special carbon graphite composite I can't even remember what it was. I probably still have some material in storage and should have a washer or two as well. Whoever needs one is in luck because I'm in CA with my car for the next 3 days. Send me a PM with your particulars, and I'll check my boxes. If I have a washer I'll pop it into the post free of charge.

Cheers,

Michael Rodrigues

[Esprit Aviation]

Hello Michael,

Thanks for the input. I havn't spoken to you in many years! The washer you sent to me has lasted ever since that time!

I'm sure that anyone in need will find this to be the best choice of material.

Thanks again for clearing up the material type. I hope all is well w/ you!

If you get a chance, give us an update on your Esprit.

Regards, Lee

[iainskea]

Ivan, as you know, you've got the Citroen C35 transaxle, as do I. There's an acknowledged weakness in the Crown Wheel and Pinion, so it's natural to suspect it, but I really doubt that's what you're experiencing here. I'm very hopeful that your issue is something entirely less serious.

If it were the CWP, or frankly any major gear issue inside the Citroen box, it would have developed over time, not instantaneously, with no obvious abuse. The CWP, typically starts as an annoying whine that gets louder and louder. Eventually it'll start to grind with horrible crunching noises and then you loose your drive.

Tom Beggan

87 HCi

New Hampshire USA

I found this post while searching for an explanation on why there is an annoying tone in top gear, doing around 70 mph. The car sounds like a van - humming away. No vibration or anything, and the noise goes away if you speed up by 5 mph. No noise in any other gear.

I think it is a worn CWP as described above, from years of sitting on 70mph on the motorway - what do you think?

And what is the usual repair?

Iain