Engine problems! no time to fix - car for sale at big loss!

[tribetype40]

something has let go. no compression in the cylinder just behind the fire wall (the others all ready 8bar). had a little dig about and found tiny (like very tiny) metal bits in and around the valves on that cylinder. dont know whats damaged really or how bad as I haven't got the head off yet.

this is a real downer on the Esprit ownership which was going soo well upto now. I will struggle for the time to sort it and frankly have had enough.

I paid 16K for it 2 months ago if anyone not shy of a little work wants to sort it out the car is yours for 13K!!!

[lrg_machine]

something has let go. no compression in the cylinder just behind the fire wall (the others all ready 8bar). had a little dig about and found tiny (like very tiny) metal bits in and around the valves on that cylinder. dont know whats damaged really or how bad as I haven't got the head off yet.

this is a real downer on the Esprit ownership which was going soo well upto now. I will struggle for the time to sort it and frankly have had enough.

I paid 16K for it 2 months ago if anyone not shy of a little work wants to sort it out the car is yours for 13K!!!

Wasn't this Dave McKennas' yellow GT3 ?

Unfortunately if the engines busted then I think your pushing it asking for 13K, I do feel for you, having just had some engine and turbo work done myself. Maybe you need to find out exaclty what's wrong before selling it, it may make your position stronger on the 13K but then again..... Can --> Worms --> Open

[tribetype40]

Yes it was, and looks like I bought a plumb!

When checking the compression I noticed there where 2 different types of spark plugs in there! Two where iridium and the other 2 were some NGK twin electrode things, err pack of 4!!??? Also I repaired the boostpipes as I found these were split disconected and melted (controlled the wastegate) so was boosting at full whack for god knows how long!? might be why everyone knows this car to be quick. I repaired these and the boost controll was restored but maybe the time it spent with all this hanging off it stressed some things too much?!

I'll have a better look when I take the head off tonight. But if I'm doing the Job it gets done right!! theres a few spare blocks and heads kicking about on forums and stuff so maybe that would be the way to go.

[Jonathan]

Probably a cracked valve.

There's an Esprit at Lipscomb atm with that prob, dunno how it happened but that'd be my 1st line of thought.

Nah that car was quick mainly becuase of the driver, tbh (with all due respect) I think dave squeezed as much out of that 2 litre as just about anyone could but to be fair to him it was regularly maintained - as much as he drove the car hard, he looked after it as well. Possibly was over boosting to a degree but the ECU shuts fuel off at dangerously high boost (1.25 bar ?) so I doubt's had much to do with it, yes it'll cause problems but there are devices there to stop it from going BANG which is why the car has lasted this long.

As with everything though the candle that burns twice as bright.....blah...

Personally I'd take the head off and have a look, not too tricky job to do and at least you can do the work away from the car (ie on a nice bench as I just did on the gearbox). Personally if it were my car I'd do the investigation work, buy the parts and try and get a Lotus mechanic to sort it - stamp and sign it before I sell it, if you want to sell it. No disrespect to you're handy work at all but I wouldn't touch an Esprit that has had a DIY repair without knowing the exact ins and outs....perhaps photograph your work as you go.

I know too many cars that have been worked on like this and things missed out / not done correctly - even the service manual has holes in it as I found out on the gearbox rebuild I just done.

Hopefully it's something simple to fix.

[superdavelotus]

I am sorry to hear about the news. Unfortunately I have to agree with Jez, there's no way you'll get

[tribetype40]

So I got bumped on the price too eh! as for well maintained.. I still have to question why there where two types of spark plug?! you just dont do it. With no boost controll working, safety features or not, there would have been nothing to controll the boost say from cold which is more likely to have caused damage.

Anyway venting anger....engine is on its way out of the car and will be repaired properly. With regard to my ability and I have been working with cars for 11 years, an automotive desgin engineer for 4 of those and have a degree in mechanical engineering.

Garages run on a time is money basis so have to watch the clock, granted a specialist that runs on reputation will do a better job but I'm a strong beleiver in 'if you want a job done right, do it your self.' Putting it in to garages to be 'well maintained' could end up with say... two different types of spark plug in your engine!!! (broke two, lost two, would cost to replace....or I could just use those two over there... for example)

As a side note I have worked on many engines and not one of them have been as horrible as this lump, I didn't know tool access was a NEW consideration, I'll ask the guys at work, as I work alongside which worked at lotus and designed the Esprit!

(the fact that they were doing this job before I was born does get rubbed in every now and then!)

Doug

(ps, who ever did the 'porting' on this engine.... waving a windy grinder down a hole is NOT porting and polishing!!)

[Jonathan]

Do you have the service history / book - perhaps call them up and ask why the plug are different - I agree you don't do seperate plugs, it but someone has. Apparently that car was always 'C' serviced so my 1st port of call would be to the last person who touched the car service wise.

I'm sure Dave also had an issue with the sparking plug leads on the wrong way at one time. They are numbered but obviously means nothing if the number on the lead does not tally with the number on the coil and the plug location - have a quick check there.

I believe the turbocharger was replaced not long before the car was sold to you, is this true ?

That system is designed to bleed anyways via the solenoid valve, a leak in the pipe at temperature will not necessarily overboost the car dangerously, the ECM will see the manifold pressure is high and keep the solenoid valve shut - if it does get dangerously high (see previous) the ECM will cut fuel and or flag an engine warning light on overboost control. You might be right on cold, the ECM shuts the solenoid valve permanently until it reaches temperature mainly to preserve the turbo, I certainly never come on boost until the temp gauage gets to at least 60c-70c, below which there is no point, the car heats up pretty quick.

As for the porting - I was under the impression this only had the intake plenum done. A few people have done it to improve the air flow into the plenum by grinding off parts - see Dermots page http://www.lotusesprit.org/

With regards to your ability - I didn't question it at all, I've seen your site and loved it - what I was suggesting was based on the fact you're off to try and sell it and offering a possible route you might take in order to get as much money back on it as possible. I've seen 2 non-lotus guys rebuild engines such as these and cause more damage than good in the long run - both requiring new rebuilds.

'if you want a job done right, do it your self.'

Preaching to the converted there brother, but only you know the level of work you'll put into the job - it's painfully hard explaining that to people who want to buy your car when they're looking to knock holes in it left right and centre, which is why I suggested documenting all the work. I also get the "what do you know" BS as well, being under 30 means you were automatically born yesterday in some people's eyes,

If you get time - shoot some photos off, be very interested to see.

As I said before I hope it's a quick and easy fix for you and you decide to keep the car - let us know how you get on.

[dmckenna]

Doug,

I've just seen this thread by fluke after looking at the piccies for the Factory visit (which look great btw). I've got to say how shocked I am and deeply sorry that you've got this problem. I feel guilty as although everyone experiences various probs with the Esprit, you're still in the honeymoon period and should not be having this grief.

As you're aware the car was maintained to a high level and of course had various bits done on her that gave the performance that others have talked about. That said, as you know increased performance does result in decreased reliability.

Hopefully this may help/explain some of what you've seen.

The spark plugs were originally NGK I recall, but decided to change them for Iridium ones. Remembering now I had a very (and I mean most people would never notice) minor misfire under load at speed in 5th (about 90), I was flumoxed (!) about what it was, checked the leads, realised that they'd been attached incorrectly at the coil (something Jon refers to) and re-connected them thinking this MUST be the problem. This was last year I think (it maybe early this year). It wasn't the problem so I looked further. I noticed that a couple of plugs were showing signs of running hot so I ordered a pack of lower temp ones and replaced them on C1 and C2 I think, this cured the misfire under load so after testing I left them in. I think in all confusion I probably left the original ones in - but was happy with curing the fault so went on to something else. Apologies if this has caused a problem, but at least you know the reason behind it. Not sure why the original plugs were hot or breaking down but assumed this may be because of some other change (like the de-cat/chipping etc.).Things were back to normal.

wrt the boost control not working - well that's a new one on me. I know it did work perfectly (you will have noticed reduced boost too when the engine was cold). We both spoke about this on the test drive that it gets restricted to .25bar until warmed up (about 60c I think) and then will let full boost through. If this was failing you would have seen the check engine light as the ECU would have seen wrong inputs from its sensors. Could this be something else you mean ?

There was an issue with one of the vaccuum control pipes a month or two before it was sold. I was in the car in Manchester and she developed a very bad lurching /poor engine control. The car was limped down to the local Lotus dealer who put their scanner on to find out what the problem was - lots of head scratching and 3 hours later the problem was found - a decayed rubber pipe that has split and was letting in air. They replaced the pipe and believe it or not didn't charge me for the pipe OR labour !! I was well chuffed. Hence why no invoice in the pack of paper I gave you - it was also so blimen simple that I was annoyed. On the way home the pipe blew off where they hadn't attached the new one properly but knowing now where it was (in the middle to the right of the turbo as you look at the car from the rear) I plugged it back on properly and was away. This is the typically silly things that Lotus owners get annoyed about (just like the turbo wastegate split pin I told you about).

wrt being beaten off the lights by a Ford Focus - well shall we say that would never have happened in my day ;-) I think there turbo comes in about 1900rpm so will get the jump on a GT3 until the turbo starts spinning, that may be a whole second later, that's a fair bit of ground until you catch up. Power, weight and all that.

To be honest and knowing how close this group is, if there were any known faults the car wouldn't have been sold until they were rectified. I am so terribly shocked and sorry that she's off the road - I only hope that you can get her fixed and back giving you some joy asap. If you want to talk to me, please ring and I'll be as helpful as I can - I want the best for any Esprit and of course you matey.

btw I liked your wing mirrors, not sure about changing the spoiler imho (I searched for your threads). Were you serious about replacing the engine for an Audi one ?

Best Regards

David

[tribetype40]

Well. A little update....

As bad things go it looks asthough I had a little luck. The problem is down to a burnt out valve! (I will try and get some pics tomorrow)

Looking at the cylinder head it is plain to see that the cylinder in question has not been running right, it has far more deposits on the valves and around the valve stems ie actual build up. The other three cylinders look in normal condition.

I suspect that that cylinder has been running lean, resulting in increased temperatures. I will have all the injectors checked and hopefully one of them will be underperforming, highlighting the cause, that or could just be down to a poor spark on that cylinder (but doubt it)

So the whole head is to get refurbished. Does anyone know a good place to get hold of valves? I have tried Sjsportcars and theirs a 50 pounds EACH!! (thats 400 pounds just for the exhaust!) I cant beleive lotus designed thier own valves!? these things should be off the shelf parts but hey ho, scratch about in pockets.....

May as well do the mother of all services while I'm able to, valve shims etc

Also what luck have people had with high temp manifold paints/coatings etc for teh exhaust manifold?

It'll be on the road in two weeks. That said however it has really taken the edge off Esprit ownership and I will be selling it shortly after. well at least I can say I have acheived, and realised a child hood dream and not many are able to say that.

boring hatchback here we come...

As for the seriousness of fitting the Audi S4 engine, I was! and had there been terminal damage to this engine i.e scored bores and holes in pistons etc it would have gone in. That said it is currently half way into my Corrado in 450BHP form and proper four wheel drive, now that should quench the need for speed!

[tribetype40]

Heres a pic of the burnt valve...

The most likely reason things like this happen is due to a numpty not checking the valve clearances, or fitting them back to the wrong valves etc. If the valve doesn't seat properly it has no way of disipating its heat. Hot gasses will be running past the valve constently heating it up.

If you look around the rim of the valve you can see its ALL black, if it was seating properly it would have a bright ring around it.

The build up of carbon deposits on the valve is a result of this and this amount of build up means the vlave has been like this for a long while (this maybe the cause of the misfire and burning the plugs!)

I should have the car back on the road next weekend (as long as I can get the vlaves soon - they take a week to order?!) it will be running correctly and I should have better performance all round but particularly low down and while the engine is out and things are accessable most things are being replaced, cleaned and tidied.

[Paul93Lotus]

Heres a pic of the burnt valve...

I wonder where that piece of the valve went....might want to double check the exhaust side of the turbo, unfortunately there may be more surprises if that came off in one piece. There is no way that could get through the turbine without causing serious damage.

[matk]

Doug

Maybe this is none of my business and I hope you understand me commenting but I wonder if I'm the only one reading this thread where it seemed you were pointing a few barbs Dave's way earlier on. Bearing in mind that it now appears that this was simply one of those things that happens with car ownership and it seems there was no way Dave could have known, perhaps it might be appropriate to publicly absolve Dave?

Apologies if I'm in the minority here on this and have misinterpreted you, but some clarification of your earlier thread comments might be appropriate?

Believe me I do know the frustration of having a car new to you let go early on in ownership, mine overheated (fans not working AND temp guage inoperative) 2 weeks after purchase resulting in head skim, gasket, top end rebuild and

[Jonathan]

Identical to the one I saw in Lipscombs, although this had done probably double the milage - as you say probably running a little lean.

So what do you do, replace the whole valves + guides or just this one ?

What's the general take on the bores / pistons ?

[tribetype40]

The other three cylinders are all fine and all signs point to normal use so no need to replace these. The probable cause looks as though its down to a poor valve clearance issue on that valve alone. I'm guessing this could have happened when the head was 'fettled' after a headgasket went. I remember dave showing me a receipt for 3-4K for headwork. this is why I cant bring myself to give my cars to other people to work on. Owners, such as Dave, may have the best intentions of keeping their pride and joy well maintained but once it goes into a garage you have very little idea of what is found, sorted, broken, bodged, or worse!

All I have mentioned in this thread is issues I have found while taking a closer look at things 'under the skin' such as the boost pipes and spark plugs etc, yes the car has full service history, but I guess people have different ideas of what is 'well maintained'. That said, I'm certainly not trying to slate dave, or be offencive in anyway and am sorry if anyone has been upset with me stating my findings.

As for 'the bit broken off' and where it has gone... When you have a burnt valve it is exactly that. The metal the valve is made of gets soo hot that it burns away there are no bits falling off or bouncing around in the cylinders etc etc the missing peice of the valve leaves the engine as vapour, goes through the turbo without damaging it and, i/m told, often ends being caught in the CAT.

This is what I ment in my earlier post that as bad things go I have been relatively 'lucky' as there is no damage beyond the valve with a big hole in it!

[Jonathan]

I take it that happens when there is no clearance and the valve is slightly open ?

What do you mean by fettled ? Like a burr or something ?

So what next, piece it back together and give it another go ?