The world's first respectful Exige V6 Vs Cayman GT4 debate.

[alias23]

1 hour ago, Gashead1105 said:

Snetterton? Or Bedford? 

Eventually at Bedford the GT4 will get black flagged for noise.

[Freejack]

23 hours ago, alias23 said:

I've got a few videos of previous track days on my Youtube channel this one is a favourite as it includes fire and tyre smoke lol... more fun than chasing lap times

Great power slide, according to Nigel Mansell's "whatever happens, never lift the throttle ... "

[Tim Raven]

There is no doubt in my mind that the GT4 is a flawed product, but if you were Porsche and you were selling GT3's at huge margins, you'd hardly make a cheaper car that was just as good or better unless you wanted a Lotus style P & L ? I've used my GT4 much more than most , I've told you on this Forum that its not as fast as an Exige V6 on circuits that don't allow momentum to be carried, I've now convinced myself of another of it's failings, that is the rear suspension . It's Chapman Strut rear layout, works well and is very cheap it make for most clients, but for ageing hooligans like me it's failings are pretty clear, the system has no ability to add camber in roll, unlike the multi link system on later GT3's, as a consequence, when I find myself tucked up behind a GT3 in a long fast corner, the GT4 simply runs out of grip and goes into a progressive oversteer state, while the GT3 just grips and drives away , all very frustrating !  My GT4 is certainly my last track car, and my plan is to learn to drive it better and to develope it such that's it's cheap build flaws are less intrusive . Too you young bendy boys, keep Lotusing ! Cheers .

[The Pits]

How ironic that the idea for the GT4's rear suspension came from Colin Chapman!

A shame you think that's the worst bit of the car Tim but I think that might be my new favourite thing about it!

[Tim Raven]

To be balanced and fair, with regard to the GT4 v Evora v Elige V6 debate , I've been away on the Bookatrack Iberia trip taking in days on track at Jerez, Portimao and Estoril. I met up with Forum member Bruss who has a beautiful Grey Evora which he has slowly modified over the last couple of years . Like myself Bruss has a small amount of racing experience and we are both of an age that we should know better, we agreed to swap cars for a few laps, Bruss in my modified GT4 and me in the modified Evora . Bruss has written his views of the swap on the other Forum, but it seems to him and to me that the Chapman Strut rear suspension on the GT4 is much less of a handicap than the physics defying engine position of the Evora . As a road car I have no doubt the Evora is great, but in extremes on-track it's nowhere near as nimble and adjustable as the GT4 . Sorry .

[The Pits]

I wasn't totally sold on the Evora 400 on track but the Sport 410 was very convincing. However, I did take an unplanned excursion onto the grass which is not something I've ever done in the Exige in over four years of track days. The Evora has also performed well as a race car in numerous series. I can vividly remember some demonstration laps in an Evora S around Hethel where the car felt beautifully balanced and precise but this was in very skilled hands of course.

Out of interest Tim why do you think the GT4 has been escaped criticism of any kind by the motor press?

[Tim Raven]

The Pits, your guess is probably better than mine ! I'm really looking forward to offering you a drive in the GT4 if we ever actually meet up ? 

I'd say you have to be driving the GT4 very hard to find the Chapman Strut giving up on grip, and when it does, it's in a very progressive and safe fashion, so probably ideal for journalist to get their inevitable over-steering photographs  ?

On a positive note, I thought Bruss's Evora had a lovely engine with loads of low down torque and had marvelous brake feel . It's a lovely place in which to sit, much more special than the Porsche .

[The Pits]

I think it might be a fairer comparison to try a standard GT4 first. I bet you'd notice the detuning work Porsche did on the GT4 if you went back in a 375bhp car now. Might shatter the popular myth about 'German horses' permanently!

Having sold my Exige I can no longer offer a V6 Cup for comparison but am working on a successor that should prove a worthy opponent. Naturally, there is a lot of interest in the GT4 and it would be a popular article if we could arrange something one day.

Hopefully, as with the GT3 comparison I did on here, you'll see that we're happy to offer praise where it's due. But we're not afraid to mention short comings either for any brand. Some will dismiss that as fanboy favouritism of course but if they want to fool themselves that any car could be perfect, nothing I write is ever going to change that. Just have to crack on, do what I believe it right and hope one or two out there can see past the trolls and cynicism. I really did enjoy the Evora Sport 410 on track though. It surprised all who drove it that day. The 'off' was at Tower Corner where the sudden change in camber kicks the car into oversteer, right on the apex. I'm putting it down to an anomaly in the corner rather than the car but I was caught out by it. It does warrant further investigation though, the Exige wasn't troubled by that corner all day and does feel like it has a lower CofG (which I'm sure is the case). I'd like to spend some time in an Evora on a quiet, wet track day to explore the on-limit handling in more detail. Seemed absolutely peachy in that Evora S demo around Hethel though, the driver was drifting it within inches of the armco lap after lap.

[Tim Raven]

I did take a passenger ride with an experienced track day friend around Portimao in his 991GT3RS, with all driver aids switched off , it was utterly remarkable, such poise and balance and such amazing speed, he was able to live with the numerous Caterham 620R's on the event . I think the point has been reached where Porsche's engineering prowess and seemingly endless engineering budget, has taken them into another league from almost all other manufacturers , sadly . The GT3 owner had to return early to the U.K., the car was left on the upper deck of the transporter , so I took the chance to inspect the tyres, quite expecting them to be shredded after such sideways tyres smoking antics, they were barely worn, how do they do it ? The Cayman GT4 ( even modified ) is a shadow of the 991GT3RS, and that car is already almost obsolete , such is the speed of Porsche's development program . It appears the new generation engine with its finger followers, smaller bearings and therefore ability to run with lower oil pressure is even more special , the development is relentless ! I genuinely admire your patriotism , but I think you are living in a "Lotus Forums" fantasy land if you really think Porsche make exaggerated claims about their power figures , again I'm sorry if this offends .

[C8RKH]

I don't think Porsche exagerate. I also don't think Lotus do either. However it seems that defending one is acceptable, and defending the other makes you a deluded fanboy!

I'm no fan of Porsche road cars, that is clear on here. However, I do have a lot of respect for their race cars, the effort they put into club racing, and their racing heritage and I do not doubt for one minute that this effort drives engineering excellence that fuels and delivers engineering excellence in their "focused" products like the GT3 etc.  Lotus just cannot compete on that scale due to a current lack of scale on the race engineering side (Motorsport Division was closed....) and they don't have the financial muscle.  So inherently, Porsche's top end, driver focused GT type cars are going to be special, and should be, pound for bhp, cheaper than Lotus.

That does not mean lotus is not punching above its weight. Perversely it could still mean that Porsche, as good as it is, is actually punching BELOW its.

However, the RAF was also hopelessly outnumbered in finances and out gunned in engineering in the face of the mighty Luftwaffe.  We all know how that Battle went in the end...     

 

[The Pits]

Tim you appear to have been riled by a point I categorically did not make.

Please read my post again. The popular myth I was referring to was that Porsche UNDERstate their power figures. At no point was any suggestion made that Porsche exaggerate their power figures. I'm curious as to how you could have come to that conclusion.

I don't think 'living in a Lotusforums fantasyland' is in the spirit of this thread. Seems unnecessarily provocative and to what end? Most have appreciated your contributions to date.

By the way, you can only improve something that has room for improvement. Yet we only get to hear about the shortcomings of Porsche's cars when the replacement is on sale.

Porsche spend most of their billions developing SUVs as we all know. For what it's worth, detuning a perfectly good 911 engine before putting it in the Cayman is very much punching below their weight. Intentionally so. Very few seem bothered by this, of course but it's precisely the sort of thing the press should be picking up on.

[Neal H]

GT3RS is the ONLY Porsche I would spend my own money on, however comparing that to an Exige V6 is a little unfair.

[The Pits]

I'd much rather have the smaller, lighter and manual 997RS with hydraulic steering personally. There will be better, faster versions of the 991RS, it's much faster but a bit numb in comparison, I don't think that's a great trade off. There will be nothing like the 997 ever again. They should be worth more on that basis. A well driven Caterham 620R should be able to embarrass a GT3RS and it's what? £50k? If speed and laptime is everything then that looks like a much better deal to me.

[SFO]

13 hours ago, The Pits said:

as with the GT3 comparison I did on here

Could you post the link please?

[Tim Raven]

Not worth arguing Jonny , you are I believe a 'a word smith' by trade , and I'm absolutely no match for your expertise in this field . I did chuckle at your throw away sentence about the Evora's success in competition, as I'm a keen club racing follower and can barely remember any Evora successes, other than with the very special Mr.Cor Euser at the wheel, so I looked them up , and was spot on !

[The Pits]

There is no argument, just a total misunderstanding on your part, which you should acknowledge.

I don't think it's reasonable to attribute any car's racing success entirely to the driver. The Evora GT4 proved very competitive in Lotus Cup for many years and still holds many outright lap records. I thought the Exige V6 CupR would make it instantly redundant but that wasn't the case at all.

It would be good to get back to Exige V6 Vs Cayman GT4 but just for a bit of a reality check on the tales of GT3RS keeping up with Caterham 620Rs thanks to magic German engineering, Evo's best time around Anglesey Coastal with a pro driver and factory prepared car stands at an extraordinary 1.13.6. It starts to look a bit incredulous next to the 600bhp Ferrari Speciale's best time of 1.14.2, also with pro driver and factory prep (which is famously extensive) but that's how Evo have it.

My personal best time in a K-Series Caterham R500 (nowhere near a 620R) on treaded tyres and h-pattern manual was 1.13.2. The fastest lap of the race was 1.11.3 in a Duratec 2.4 litre car which makes similar power to the 620R albeit without a supercharger. That's a match for a McLaren P1 on Trofeo tyres. This was quite a few years ago too. My car is on average about 1.5 secs quicker now and I'm sure the top cars in the Mag 7's would be in the 1.10s.

[Tim Raven]

I was referring to my personal experience at Portimao last week, you don't have to convince me about Caterham's track or road performance, utterly remarkable. It was only a very unpleasant meeting with a couple of large Deer that made me sell my wonderful CSR a couple of years ago . My much more antique Lotus 7 S4 is a poor replacement but feels fast at much lower speeds.

The Lotus Club Championship, racing against other Lotus's , hardly Jonny, it's like me quoting the Porsche Super Cup results ?

As I said you are a fine word smith, I'm a left handed dyslexic, but I assure you, I've seen time and again on various forums how you try to bully people, you won't intimidate me ! So perhaps you should ban me ? 

[C8RKH]

5 hours ago, Tim Raven said:

Not worth arguing Jonny , you are I believe a 'a word smith' by trade , and I'm absolutely no match for your expertise in this field . I did chuckle at your throw away sentence about the Evora's success in competition, as I'm a keen club racing follower and can barely remember any Evora successes, other than with the very special Mr.Cor Euser at the wheel, so I looked them up , and was spot on !

Tim, as a keen club racing follower maybe you could provide some info to inform, or indeed, set the context here.  What do you believe is the ratio of club racers who race Porsche's versus Evora's?  I am not an expert, but based on what I have seen, I would say it was a ratio in the UK probably in the region of 1 Evora for every 125 Porsche's.  Given this, it is not surprising that they "barely" win, however,  Evora GT's have won both here and in the US, and indeed, I believe if you follow Stratton's return to racing you will see the Evora doing well and acquitting itself well in the GT4 championship.

If I can just make an observation Tim. Several posts on here are conciliatory in nature and recognise Porsche achievements, yet, I detect, and this may be my miss-interpretation an almost superior, slightly sneering, attitude from you re the Lotus Evora and an air of aloofness that will just not allow you to give any credit at all.  I am sorry if I am wrong in this, but there is a definite undertone in your posts, but like emails, it may just be the way the written word is interpreted.

I will again say, given the global investment in Porsche club racing, both factory backed and not, and the sheer number of Porsche cars that race, compared to Lotus, I do believe that Porsche's superior performance is not that breathtaking. I would argue that Porsche has F1 levels of resources to Lotus Evora's F3 level and yet rather than Lotus Evora getting any praise for putting in a good showing on limited resources, Porsche is just lauded for being better full stop.  Maybe some humility could be found?  Anyway, if I have miss-understood, please accept my apologies.

Our last posts crossed.  This comment here Tim ("As I said you are a fine word smith, I'm a left handed dyslexic, but I assure you, I've seen time and again on various forums how you try to bully people, you won't intimidate me ! So perhaps you should ban me ?")  is just inflammatory and childish to be honest and it is almost as though you are trying to provoke "a response" and the action of being banned so you can then say "See, QED, bunch of biased fanboys".  I guess the "respectful" bit in the title was a little hopeful as that quote is not respectful nor was it necessary nor in the spirit of the thread.

[The Pits]

1 hour ago, Tim Raven said:

I was referring to my personal experience at Portimao last week, you don't have to convince me about Caterham's track or road performance, utterly remarkable. It was only a very unpleasant meeting with a couple of large Deer that made me sell my wonderful CSR a couple of years ago . My much more antique Lotus 7 S4 is a poor replacement but feels fast at much lower speeds.

The Lotus Club Championship, racing against other Lotus's , hardly Jonny, it's like me quoting the Porsche Super Cup results ?

As I said you are a fine word smith, I'm a left handed dyslexic, but I assure you, I've seen time and again on various forums how you try to bully people, you won't intimidate me ! So perhaps you should ban me ? 

Tim what on earth are you talking about? How did this go so pear shaped so quickly? You've been on here for years without any problems but your tone has changed completely in the last three posts. It all appears to have been triggered by a clear misunderstanding. Can we try again please to remain civil? There is plenty of room here for different views if we can maintain that. You have always been shown a lot of respect here regardless of your devotion to Porsches. I would like to see that continue. I'm less keen on the desire to openly mock the Evora and would prefer if that stopped.

 

[mcx]

On 15/09/2017 at 16:14, Neal H said:

GT3RS is the ONLY Porsche I would spend my own money on, however comparing that to an Exige V6 is a little unfair.

I would agree, however, having had them both... I kept the exige  

[The Pits]

Quite a few here have discovered the Exige after having owned a variety of more expensive and powerful stuff. I sold a V12 Vantage to buy my V6 Cup and had no regrets, much as I loved the Vantage. No doubt in some quarters we're all branded blinkered fan boys for suggesting that we enjoy driving the Lotus more but our car histories say otherwise. There's no convincing some though. I find generally Lotus fans are more tolerant of other makes than most.

I think though sadly this thread has run its course. A Cayman GT4 owner was the first to start personal insults, ironic when the thread was started to respectfully discuss that car on a Lotus site. Something I think the Lotus owners here did a decent job of. Hey ho!

[DK7]

On 15.9.2017 at 20:10, The Pits said:

I'd much rather have the smaller, lighter and manual 997RS with hydraulic steering personally. There will be better, faster versions of the 991RS, it's much faster but a bit numb in comparison, I don't think that's a great trade off. There will be nothing like the 997 ever again. They should be worth more on that basis.

He knows the business very well!

[The Pits]

On 9/16/2017 at 08:28, Tim Raven said:

I did chuckle at your throw away sentence about the Evora's success in competition, as I'm a keen club racing follower and can barely remember any Evora successes, other than with the very special Mr.Cor Euser at the wheel, so I looked them up , and was spot on !

The Lotus Club Championship, racing against other Lotus's , hardly Jonny, it's like me quoting the Porsche Super Cup results?

Seems you missed a few!

http://www.lotuscars.com/news/racing/issy-peasy-yusuf-kershaw-and-evora-gt4-spa?language=en

The Evora GT4 won 3 of the 9 rounds in British GT4 in 2014. It also won the class in 2014, beating Aston Martin, Ginetta, and you know who (911 and a Cayman as it happens).

 

 

[Swiss380Cup]

After 1 Turbo S, 1 GT3, 2 GT3 RS I wouldn't trade my 380 Cup for the Cayman GT4, although if I had known beforehand about that

http://www.fabspeed.com/porsche-cayman-gt4-fabspeed-gt450-race-performance-package/ (an $ 8'500.- package), I might have reconsidered...

Porsches of course are great cars, but they care mostly for people who drive their car on the riviera coast and eventually go sometimes on track.....

At all Porsche clubs meetings you have crazy people like us crying and whining because Porsche no longer manufactures lighter and real RS cars...... so everybody eventually complains about his favorite brand.... fans will be fans....

Maybe Porsche should have proposed a GT4 with an Exige interior and 150 kgs less... but THEY WILL NEVER DO THAT.....because it's not what their clients want...

But eventually you (I) buy a Lotus Exige because of the raw experience and the race feeling you have just sitting in it...this car is mad, crazy, amazing and can keep up with most and it's just exhilarating fun......

I would have emptied all my Porsches of everything including the carpets.... in the Lotus I can spare the trouble and I LOVE IT......

Another problem is people want a 1'100 kgs Lotus Exige but with aircon, stereo, leather, carpets, insulation, navigation, cameras, radar, bla bla bla bla, and finally complain about the poor quality of a Lotus, and so you eventually compare 2 different concepts....

I wonder because the GT4 was presented as the ultimate experience, bla bla bla, impossible to buy, and in Switzerland there are about 26 2nd hand for sale, and some have been sitting there for quite some time, more than a year and the advertised prices are reasonable.....

I have never discussed about any owner or any serious club or pro driver about the GT4, but I wonder why there are so many 2nd hand, despite the fact it was advertised to be exceptional...

A friend of mine who's a Porsche race driver and a car dealer with more than 30 years experience told me once the GT4 is a Cayman with a rear wing....... so I took him at his word

The only thing I miss about Porsches especially the GT3, is the residual value..... you can buy one 2nd hand drive it for 3 years and eventually sell it again with not much of a loss.... I did once the most stupid thing of my Porsche ownership period, or even car ownership, selling my 996 GT3 RS with no radio and no aircon...... this one is now on the collectible path... ...

[Swiss380Cup]

Just another thought, I believe the really comparable car to an Exige V6 are the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 1st iteration... even thought the 997 started to have a lot of electronics in it, PASM, etc.... yes, IMO, 996 GT3 1st and 2nd generation and RS is the closest. And for having had 3 of them I can tell you the Exige matches them no problem....even better I believe.. a little scarier to drive on fast tracks, but still.... Lotus is for people who LOVE TO DRIVE and Porsches for people who like to go very fast without worrying too much about the driving....