New 410 musings - Ex Cayman

[andyj007]

4 hours ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Maybe the Lotus Goods-In guys don't open up all the boxes and carefully check each individual c/f roof for quality issues, so it just gets put into store until it's needed. The next thing you know it's on the Production Line and being bonded to a chassis, at which point it's too late to do anything about it.

well thats just daft if thats the case..  as we said early not exactly making hundreds are they!! 

no responsibility, or accountability.. someone must take ownership.. you dont buy goods in  and not check their fit for purpose - especially of your reputation is going to depend on it..    

stock manager, stock controller, quality manager...  these are job titles for a reason.. 

it cost you nothing to send back poor quality goods outsourced , but cost a fortune to rectifi later if make it onto the car  and the consumer market confidence is irreplaceable... once damaged..

shame really, as its not difficult to check stock before it gets put on cars..

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by andyj007

[bosshog]

3 hours ago, PaulCP said:

Controversial post I know but -

I wonder if any of these quality issues are down to the JMG effect 😮 cost cutting and employees scared to question

I think it's directly the reason. It's been already stated before. In Bahar was all over the QA. A lots of good people left under JMG style of management and QA definitely suffered.

[Likuid]

You'd think even if they were going to be a little lax on QA when it came to the carbon roof they should have still be very strict since replacing the roof is crazy work.

[pete757]

A polarising issue, clearly.

Yes, not nice to have shelled out some big bucks for a 410. But does this, lets face it, minor imperfection in the CF roof weave, really detract SO much for all the great things about the car? If I was to walk past, or even have a good look, would this really be THAT noticeable? Did you notice it on the dealer handover?

Don't get me wrong here, it's not great. But it's a Lotus. A unique and amazing sports car, built in low volumes. For peeps that buy them for what they are.. awesome largely hand built British sports cars.

If I compare my 3 year old Evora SR, to my (ex) Exige S1, built 18 years ago,  I would have a list miles long about all the Exige faults! MUCH more significant than this imperfection with the CF roof. Blimey, it had leaking doors and windows, fumes, HGF, rattles everywhere, almost impossible to drive in town without having to 'dip' the clutch every 50m to stop it stalling, etc etc etc. But I bet back then, we all perhaps 'accepted' that this was part of the character of the car, lived with it and accepted that is was part of the 'build' of a Lotus, But is this the problem! We have all drifted up the 'scale' of quality, as manufactures and computers build us better and better cars every year. Our expectations are way higher now than ever before... and it keeps getting (worse) better!!

So, perhaps it's time we all took a 'note' from the past, and enjoyed these cars for what they are designed for... drivers cars who are largely purchased by a bunch of guys and girls who by them for that. Because lets face it, a Porsche will never deliver the same experience as a Lotus. And I am for one, very glad of that! But a Porsche will probably deliver computer levels of build quality accuracy compared with Lotus. For me however, turn the key and enjoy the real reason why you spent all those ££ on an amazing car :>)   

[jonnyboy]

The defect I captured in the photo is the small one there's a bigger one about 3 inch diameter bang where your eyeline is getting in the car. "Its a lotus" was cute when it's a 30k Elise but if they want to play in the big playground this stuff isn't acceptable as people are not as I don't think I am necessarily anal but they do want things to be right. Wanting a new thing to be right I don't think is a big ask. There is also the fact it would appear they made the roof panel a none replaceable part of the car which is a bit daft. 

[Colin P]

5 hours ago, pete757 said:

Yes, not nice to have shelled out some big bucks for a 410. But does this, lets face it, minor imperfection in the CF roof weave, really detract SO much for all the great things about the car? If I was to walk past, or even have a good look, would this really be THAT noticeable? Did you notice it on the dealer handover?

People spend a lot of money having these cars detailed and Crystal Serum treated as Jonny has. This defect is worse than a paint defect (which many on here have had corrected under warranty including Jayemm's which is recorded on here), it is worse than a few swirl marks. I personally had to have the rear glass replaced due to a defect in the manufacture, which took me about a month to spot, but once spotted you just cannot ignore. This is a defect in a new car and is beyond what should be considered "acceptable", so one way or another it needs to be addressed.

I don't necessarily agree with some of the other complaints as they are being dealt with and/or are fairly trivial (for someone who earns a seemingly very nice living out of Lotus cars I am surprised a little more slack isn't being given), but the carbon roof is a big ticket item and a key feature of the car, it is unfortunate that it is so difficult/expensive to replace - but this is not a factor in whether or not it should be.

[Ratman]

I suspect that the change of the supplier made the problem. Only skilled people can work on carbon look parts. Here we are in 200, 150 in the workshop (all the departments) but only few people can work on carbon-look parts.

a couple in the lamination dept, 3 in the finishing dept. no more.

In my opinion the CF roof is the most evident difference that a 410 shows from the 400. That's why needs to be perfect. If you have a minor but visible defect, you must use a different roof and designate the damaged roof to a different project (maybe a special 400) in order to not scrap it.

 

[C8RKH]

6 hours ago, pete757 said:

But a Porsche will probably deliver computer levels of build quality accuracy compared with Lotus

Here it is again - part of the rub for me.  The Porsche will be well screwed together yes. It will have a fancy well made interior. But all of this is the superficial stuff. the important stuff is in the detail like bore scoring and other mechanical issues.  Porsche and the German car industry in general really has suckered the UK, and other, countries motorists into believing their products are so reliable.  Again, go look at JD Power's survey results - totally unbiased - the "premium German brands" have not been doing so well for years.

I think it was @bosshog that summed it up for me, he bought his 410 to "hoon it" and that is what he is doing with it.  Amen brother! I'm in the congregation with you!

I'm going to bug out of this thread with this:

I'm really sorry that the 410 has the issues it has for Jonny and that it is spoiling his ownership experience and his view of the car. It does not matter what we think about the issues. It's Jonny's car and his is the view that matters when it comes to what is and is not acceptable. I do hope, and I do think, lotus will step up and put this right. They are addressing the other key issues as far as I understand. They do have a track record of doing the right thing and do go much further than others (Porsche!) as has been evidenced on here time and time again.  I do hope it gets sorted to your satisfaction Jonny.

My consolation, and this will not make it better for you, is that in 48 hours I will be on a ferry to God's own driving roads on the IoM, with a bunch of really nice Lotus enthusiasts, "hooning it" hopefully in the style and manner that @bosshog will approve of. THAT, is what I bought my 410 for.

 

[DJW]

If the roof is wrong it should be replaced, however big the job.  Are we saying an Evora is now a write off if the roof is damaged ? No, it’s just a big job by the sounds of it.

The dealer , supported by Lotus, should offer to either paint the roof and offer something in return (cash, free servicing for 3 years etc) or take the car back.   Would seem the honourable thing to do.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

One thing this thread has taught us is to go over any potential new Lotus purchase with a fine tooth comb before accepting the keys from the dealer. 

Secondly Ratman keeps mentioning "carbon-look" when referring to this issue. I may be wrong but isn't that a term for superficial carbon fibre like you can apply to the plastic wing mirror pods? I always assumed that the 410/430 roof was pure carbon fibre, hence the weight benefit.

[Ratman]

Carbon look parts are carbon fibre parts where the look is an important issue of the parts. We make all carbon fibre parts where the look is not important, but the performance. usually the first skin is the most important as well (but for performance issue) and must to be saved as for carbon look parts, but the last one have to be perfect.  the prepreg used for carbon look parts is also different, because the supplier uses selected materials in order to emphasize the look. but we are usually speaking about one skin of a 200g/m2, 0.4 mm thick. not easy to put on the mould, not easy to sand for the painting.

the meaning of carbon-look on plastic items is not considered here..... 🙂

[C8RKH]

53 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

One thing this thread has taught us is to go over any potential new car purchase with a fine tooth comb before accepting the keys from the dealer. 

FTFY

[pete757]

2 hours ago, jonnyboy said:

The defect I captured in the photo is the small one there's a bigger one about 3 inch diameter bang where your eyeline is getting in the car. "Its a lotus" was cute when it's a 30k Elise but if they want to play in the big playground this stuff isn't acceptable as people are not as I don't think I am necessarily anal but they do want things to be right. Wanting a new thing to be right I don't think is a big ask. There is also the fact it would appear they made the roof panel a none replaceable part of the car which is a bit daft. 

I am pretty certain most cars do not have 'replaceable roof panels'... 🙄

Given this is also 'big playground stuff', I am curious why you did not pick this 'bang where your eyeline is' defect up on delivery and not pay for the car until it was sorted? 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Thanks Ratman. I remember visiting an Italian carbon fibre company back in around 2001 (I think near Pescara). They had a carbon fibre Ferrari F50 tub on display in the Reception area, which was a component they produced in the mid 1990s. 

[Simon Bateman]

8 hours ago, pete757 said:

If I compare my 3 year old Evora SR, to my (ex) Exige S1, built 18 years ago,  I would have a list miles long about all the Exige faults! MUCH more significant than this imperfection with the CF roof. Blimey, it had leaking doors and windows, fumes, HGF, rattles everywhere, almost impossible to drive in town without having to 'dip' the clutch every 50m to stop it stalling, etc etc etc. But I bet back then, we all perhaps 'accepted' that this was part of the character of the car, lived with it and accepted that is was part of the 'build' of a Lotus, But is this the problem! We have all drifted up the 'scale' of quality, as manufactures and computers build us better and better cars every year. Our expectations are way higher now than ever before... and it keeps getting (worse) better!!

So, perhaps it's time we all took a 'note' from the past, and enjoyed these cars for what they are designed for... drivers cars who are largely purchased by a bunch of guys and girls who by them for that. Because lets face it, a Porsche will never deliver the same experience as a Lotus. And I am for one, very glad of that! But a Porsche will probably deliver computer levels of build quality accuracy compared with Lotus. For me however, turn the key and enjoy the real reason why you spent all those ££ on an amazing car :>)   

I don't think saying the old cars were bad, but the new ones are now not as bad, is a very good argument.

My view is that mechanically the current cars are by and large reliable, but cosmetically in isolated cases there is still some way to go.

As I alluded to in a previous post, there is still a small loyal group of owners that view their Lotus as just about being a drivers car, which is fine and I get that, but these people in number are not sufficient for Lotus to survive on and the greater number of new buyers and probably more importantly, the people still yet to buy one, are a different breed.

Sure, they want a drivers car, but they also want it to work and look right.  As already said, it's maybe OK to have these issues on a 30k Elise, but the new crop of Evora's are not cheap and at that price point, there is a whole different level of expectation.

As buyers we have all agonised over the colour choices and scoured the options list to get the correct combinations and selected black packs or additional carbon for a reason and when you pay extra for these things, you want them and the car to look right.

Personally I think this roof issue has just slipped through the net.......possibly it's been seen at a point in the process where it's too late and possibly it's been viewed by QC as something that will be probably be accepted by the client because it doesn't affect the performance and for me that's where the mindset will need to change.

Much as the advice to spend longer checking the car before handover makes sense, I personally think you would need to almost have the car for a good few weeks in different light conditions away from the soft showroom lighting and also probably wash it a couple of times to really see many of these mainly cosmetic issues and I for one have often spent an hour or so in the past looking at a car in a showroom, only to find an issue once I'd got the car back home in a different light condition.

In terms of Porsche having a more reliable product, I'm not sure I agree with that.  Although many of the engine issues were solved with the introduction of the direct injection engines from the series 2 997's and 981 Caysters, they do, along with other German cars still have issues and even the base models are so crammed with tech, that often any out of warranty repairs can be ruinous. 

I for one would rather run an out of warranty Lotus than an out of warranty Porker.

This roof issue being discussed is ultimately between the OP and Lotus to resolve at the end of day.  It's not right and something needs to be done.  What that is, given the repair complexities, is really down to the OP, but moving forward as Lotus develops the brand upwards (which I'm sure Geely will want to do), Lotus will need to have a higher level of quality control to not only match the price point of the cars but more importantly the customers expectations.

 

[Gashead1105]

I have to say that I can't see anything in the pictures... However I also sympathise with Jonny as, once you spot something that you think is wrong, it's impossible not to see it every time you look at the car. In my case, the passenger airbag cover has popped up so that it's no longer aligned with the dash and I'm finding it impossible to ignore. At least the car is going in for a service shortly. 

[Stubox]

I’m still surprised that given the small community of lotus buyers but significant reach of bad publicity this hasn’t been taken up and potential resolutions suggested...or maybe they have . Either way I hope lotus deliver some options for the OP to consider.

IF it was mine and I had fallen in love with the driving experience then IMO @tim-marra suggestion of colour match roof leaving centre exposed carbon and the yellow flash the front cover,  roof and rear as per some of the GT430s would be good.

Maybe someone can PS a picture of it??

Have to say I’m super conscious getting out of mine to avoid touching the carbon roof as it flexes easily and don’t want it marked...even now thinking to ppf it. Equally having seen the 430s with the ‘cat claw’ scratches coloured in I wish I’d thought of it on mine!

Good luck and hope it’s resolved to your satisfaction.

 

[Champale]

My 2 cents - have the roof vinyl wrapped in the color of your choice.  You could even leave a center stripe of CF exposed if you wanted.  I would not want to have my roof replaced simply because you know that other collateral damage could occur (paint being scratched on the pillars, interior damage, etc).  It is just not worth the headaches for what is a non-structural and purely cosmetic problem.  

[tim_marra]

Any update on your progress with resolving your issues or rejecting the car Jonnyboy?

[jonnyboy]

It's in the hands of Black Horse. I've lost all interest to be honest just left it with them. 

[C8RKH]

Sorry to hear that @jonnyboy. I've just had mine on the IoM and it has been a real hoot to be honest. A couple of niggles but sure they will get sorted out.

[jonnyboy]

I'd be interested to know what your roof defects are like. Are you getting them to sort? 

[tim_marra]

I wasn't aware that there is another carbon roof car with defects?

Very sorry to read that you have all but given up on your car 

Edited July 10, 2018 by tim_marra

[jonnyboy]

I wouldn't say I have given up on the car. It's a fantastic car it just has a defect in the roof that's all. 

The process has been less than satisfactory yes. 

On a separate note Lotus are going to see it today. The official line is to "sign off" the warranty repairs which seems odd to me (Just the usual stuff like AC/leaks etc). They are clearly going to take a butchers at the roof. 

They know they have a problem so I still hope it can be resolved in a less dismissive way than it has been to date. 

[tim_marra]

Would you consider the paint option to resolve it, or are you determined to have a full exposed carbon roof as the only fix? I do hope Lotus contact you direct so that a suitable solution is reached, whatever that may be.