KAS-118

@Neal H, perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying!? However, what is 'practical' is of course down to the individual - as indeed so is what is fun. For example, a Caterham owner may think that your Elise is too much of a compromise. An Evora is also more practical then a Elise - but i my view its still more of a sports car than a GT. Likewise, the Elite, Eclat and Excell were even more practical than an Evora - but still can be considered 'Sports Cars - for me they have all the practicality that I would need. So I disagree with you - you can have a 'one- car' that "does it all" for a car enthusiast.

@LotusLeftLotusRight I was talking about the 2.5V6 Busso and the 2.5V6 24-valve Yes, I ended up keeping the 156 a lot longer than I was intending because when I went out in the 159Q4 EVERYTHUNG about that car was wrong - the engine didn't rev; the steering lacked feel and the chassis didn't talk to you. However, the point being that whilst 2-seaters are indeed fun; just because something is a 4-door saloon doesn't mean a car can'y have great character. Neal H suggest that you can't have a car that has both character and a degree of practicality - my view is that he's mistaken. Indeed, the Lotus Elite, Eclat and Excell all were reasonably practicable - but also were great fun too.

@comem47 - actually it still says 'Video unavailable' - but it doesn't say its country related.

@C8RKH - still self projecting again!?

Actually its all about lifestyle choices isn't it. You see 2-seater sports cars (and I've had a couple) are great fun. But then there comes a time when you do hobbies, where you need a lot of stuff, or you have a family, so you need more than 2 seats, you might need to take a dog to the vets etc. So you buy something with more than 2 seats as well. Then you end up with parking problems - especially in London and Greater London. Either you leave one on the road or park one in front of the other - and it all just gets a bit of a pain, so you end up not using the 2-seater at all. But that means you end up driving a soulless machine 95% of the time - and having money tied up in something sitting in the garage doing nothing very much - and when you want to use it, the batteries flat, the brakes have seized etc. So, you can continue with this - or find something that does have character, but you can use it 100% of the time. Is it as fun as a 2-seater sports car - no; but actually it can get to 90-95%. So, where as you believe that a 'real' car enthusiast drives something they find fun the minority of the time - I think a car enthusiast would want to drive something that is nearly as fun 100% of the time. By the way - have you ever owned something with an Alfa V6 engine in it? As to you view that something that costs over £50k and isn't practical is not an option for most people - I agree. But then clearly, if everyone thought that and refused to buy a car over £50k that was not practical - then Lotus wouldn't sell many cars would they? However, going back to the title thread, well, the majority of people do actually have off road parking, there are street and communal/public chargers - and most journeys are easily within the range of an EV. So, the majority of the people, the majority of the time, could live with an EV if they were so minded, Do I think more public charging points are required - yes. Do I think everyone should rush out and bye an EV now - No. Do I think it would be good if there were cheaper EV's - yes.

Actually, there are other fast chargers - not just Tesla Chargers - and those fast chargers are available now. I'm not here to 'convince' anyone - answering a question as to whether Electric is there answer - seeing that ICE is going to be banned. I disagree with your comments that most people couldn't use electric cars now - I think that they could - the decision as to whether they do so now is entirely up to them. I for instance, haven't gone to Electric yet because 1) my current car has only done 12k so there's no need for me to change it yet and 2) there's nothing that appeals to me enough. However, my next car is very likely to be Electric - and whilst I don't believer the Charging matter is such a pain as you think it is, I do agree that as more people get EV's then more chargers will be required. However, for the present number of EV's, people who actually use them seem to cope fine.

It says that the Video is currently unavailable ☹️ Out of interest what did it say?

The usage of Charging Points v Petrol Stations is different - that is very true. But say it takes 5 mins to fill up with petrol and a 5 minute wait whilst someone in front of you pays for their groceries. So compared to a Tesla Supercharger that's 2 Petrol Cars compared to charging a Tesla 3 from 10-80%? The number of charging points shown are for Public Chargers - as `i said most BEV's will be charged by Private ones - and they're not shown. Local Authorities are putting in on street charging points https://www.croydon.gov.uk/transportandstreets/charging-points-for-electric-cars-and-vans- a lot of those on that mao are them https://www.croydon.gov.uk/transportandstreets/charging-points-for-electric-cars-and-vans; plus you get some 'semi-private' ones in Car Parks and hotels, supermarkets etc. Where I work in Sweden it is common for EV points to be provided in company car parks;. So I'm afraid I don't accept your arguments it is such a huge thing. Sure, there is some work required, but the provision of cable TV and Fibre Optic cable also required that. Indeed, where I live a few years ago all our street lamps were ripped out and replaced by LED ones - and by that I mean the actual lamp posts - again you could easily say that that was a mammoth task. I think your 80-120 mile range is also based more on the older generation cars and not the new ones. Say something like am MG EV has a 163 miles range. If the average trip is 6 miles - then that's nearly 28 trips before needing to charge up. As stated above, the Milton Keynes experiment is intended to use EV Cars to actually balance the requirements of the grid - not disrupt it. So whilst I do appreciate what you say, the facts are that the co-operation between National and Local Government is happening, Local Authorities are being encouraged to install on-street chargers and there's also other charges being installed - and all this is happening now. I don't see there being any issues in Payment at all - just use your phone or credit card. I do agree that there are no 'cheap' EV's - £25k is not cheap - but even that is likely to change in the next few years. In any event - what is your proposal - there is a clear intention by this Government and the EU to eventually Ban ICE cars. You're either going to have to think of something now that's better then a BEV (including the fuel supply issues - and hjydrogen fuel cells are certainly not looking favourable in that respect at the moment) - or you going to have to start adopting your infrastructure, Given you say that's a mammoth task, then surely we need to start doing that sooner rather than later?

Well that's one way to ensure social distancing https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/german-cafe-social-distancing-hats-a4440946.html

I assume their backers must be suffering a bit from the low oil price?

Yes I did, and yes I've now answered it. However I, for one, am prepared to give Lotus the benefit of the doubt that they can produce a fun EV which has character. Indeed, test reviews consider the Tesla 3 Performance is quite fun (despite being a 4-door saloon) as indeed was the Roadster. The Porsche Taycan is also supposed to be quite a fun experience to drive. So I'm not clear why, before Lotus have even produced one, people seem to think they're going to be dull and lack character.....? I'm sure when Lotus went upmarket with the Esprit, Elite and Eclat people could have complained about the weight and size increase compared to the Elan or +2; but they turned out great cars. In any event, although people may mourn the passing of the ICE, it seems highly likely that it's going to happen - and a lot of people think Coronavirus is going to accelerate that process https://electrek.co/2020/05/14/volvo-ceo-pandemic-will-rapidly-accelerate-shift-to-electric-cars/ Frankly, I'd prefer Lotus to get be the cutting edge of technology, and not concentrate on something that is going to go the way of the Land Line or cassette tape player.

C8RKH, with respect it is you appear to be self projecting again - and its a shame that you resort to derisory insults to attempt to belittle someone who has a different view to you. Qus but in doing so you merely belittle yourself. I won't stoop to that level. You've complained that if you didn't have a drive or a garage then you your couldn't charge a EV. I pointed out that that is factually wrong because there are on-street Chargers - and indeed Local Authorities are being encouraged to provide more. However, your response to that is to say there may not be space - again, this is nonsense as if there is space for you to have on-street parking - then there is space for a charger. If there's not space for you to park a car, logically you wouldn't have one. But you now say that that doesn't follow - because 'the streets are a war zone'. Well, it still doesn't matter because the fact remain you either do have space to park, or you don't. Sure, a person may have to park some distance away from there house - or even in a public carpark - or even at someone else's property. But either there is space to physically put the car somewhere - or there is not and therefore that person won't have a car. In the example Neal H gave, he said his brother had to park elsewhere. For your information that means that there was a place for him to park - sorry you didn't pick up on that. As to the "I did give you quite a bit of information, explaining WHY it is not just simply about space on the road and why it is not just easy to get on with it"...like wise I've explained to you that there are numerous on-street chargers and in respect of the Grid I've referred you to the Milton Keynes trial As to 9) as far as I'm concerned 'the conversation' is this thread as a whole, and that has gone on for a number of posts and includes others and not just yourself - see for example Neal H's comments. As for 'misquoting' you - again, I think it's you who miss quote me. I never said you claimed not to have the space for a charger (although I do recall at the start of this thread you suggested how difficult home-charging was) but on one hand it's suggested that there's no room 'on the streets' for chargers - and hence EV's are not practical - but there's plenty of examples of people owning a number of cars as 1 seems impractical for their needs. Well, where those people don't have off-load parking, then that raises issues of space as well doesn't it? This thread is titled "Is Electric Really The Answer" and was in response about the banning of ICE - not whether or to you enjoyed ICE's. So far you've suggested Hydrogen Fuel Cells - what errrrrrhhhhhhh - is Electric - but I have to confess I can't recall you coming up with any other alternative? I think we've established that you have a disdain for Electric Vehicles, but as far as I know , those who own the Tesla Roadster actually think they are fun. You haven't giving us your experience of them to say they were dull; nor have you identified anyone else who says this. Clearly comparing a Tesla S or 3 with a 2-seater sports car isn't comparable - but I do believe the Tesla 3 itself has been described as quite fun to drive - for a 4-door saloon. I'm not sure why you find it necessary to 'bait' people on a topic, it's nice for you to admit that you do - but you should really consider if that's a 'adult' thing to do? Sorry missed your post. Yes I have thanks - a Europa S2 with Else conversion - bought it from Eagle Racing in Maidstone - who I note, aft6er a slight name change, now produce very expensive versions of the E-type. My father also had an Elite 503 - which I also drove but did not own.

Well it does look like significant changes are afoot in Formula E too https://www.explica.co/formula-e-towards-a-move-to-permanent-circuits/

I agree...other than they may give Alonso a shot - then pull the Plug. However, I do wonder whether they, and Honda, want out? F1 is incredibly expensive - and I feel that Hybrids, which I admit seemed to make a lot of sense, now appear to me to be an irrelevance to the future of Road Cars. Why produce a great F1 Hybrid engine, if its not going to be spun off into your Road vehicles!?

1) The Map was used to demonstrate there are numerous Public Charging Points in London on the Street, It therefore follows that if there is a need for them, the provision of additional charges on the street is not necessarily unachievable. Yes, there will be the need for private chargers too - as indeed I'm sure most people who own an EV would prefer that. But, if there is a space that is big enough to park a car, then there is a space that is big enough to provide a charging facility too. 2) The proposition that you are advancing is that if you can't charge at home - then the EV is no good. The comparison is that you can't 'reasonably' fuel a petrol engine at home. The point again is that those that can recharge at home privately - can with an EV, and those who haven't got a private drive, can charge from on street charges or, in the case, of flats - communal parking chargers. Yes, they may well have to be provided, but they currently are at the moment. Again the issue is not insurmountable. 3) Sorry I disagree - you're saying you can't 'live with' an EV in a city areas because you can't charge it. I'm saying you can charge it - and I'm saying in some city areas you can't live with your older petrol or diesel car because driving them in that area is banned. 4) This is a discussion about whether electric is the answer. Hydrogen Fuel Cells are electric powered cars - and its therefore legitimate to consider them - and their use in City Areas. For private car use, how you re-fuel them is obviously a concern. There are numerous EV Chargers within 10 miles of me, there is not one hydrogen fuel supply. Plus, if I go to a BEV I just 'fill-up' at home - what I'm currently unable to do with a Fuel Cell. Petrol and Diesel, even in Hybrids, will be banned - and therefore the Government will need to make the transition to something else available - and it needs to start doing that now. 5) Yes, if space is available I'm sure an EV owner wants a point at home, especially as a grant is available - but this point has nothing to do with home charging per se, merely the anticipated load, at anyone time, on the Network. The point is that not everyone will be charging at the same time - and the on-going trials in Milton Keynes is to use EV's as a temporary storage - so that the demand on the Networks is balanced throughout the day and 'spare' capacity can be stored in them. Rather than cause overloading of the Network, the theory is EV''s could make it more efficient. 6) Likewise, when someone goes into a Petrol Station and his Girlfriends sits there with a car window open (as I have seen), risking the whole thing going up in flames, its likely to inconvenience a LOT of people https://www.racingpost.com/news/fire-crews-bring-spectacular-petrol-station-blaze-near-fontwell-under-control/379477 .Although sometimes its stopped https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/20/man-soaked-fire-extinguisher-refusing-stop-smoking-petrol-station-10604175/ I regret I find your reasoning a tad too much, clearly vandalism can affect a n umber of people - such as when people vandalise trains - but it doesn't mean that trains are no good and we should all use petrol cars instead. Indeed, post boxes can also be vandalised - should they all be removed? 7) Clearly I agree things need proper planning and research - but see 5, but I see no evidence that we can't currently cope - and things are being planned, things are being researched and capacity is being increased. 8 ~) ~If you haven't got space to park your car, then you presumable won't have a car - or you'll have to park it somewhere where there is space - meaning that it could have a power supply there. 9) I note your views. But my view is that you're intent on putting up hurdles which don't really exist in the way you present them. For example, I find it disingenuous to present the argument that EV's are no good as they do not have enough range, are too expensive, go to fast, and are nor practical enough, and you haven't got space to charge them - when that persons Petrol car does not have much more range, costs just as much, is less practicable - so needs a 2nd car (and not all people with 2 or more cars have off road parking either) which therefore costs even more money, However, as to the point in costs - well here's the latest bit of news from your Favourite CEO Elon Musk. Seems that they've extended the range, life and reduced the costs - things are moving on in the EV world - aren't they!? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-tesla-batteries-exclusive/exclusive-teslas-secret-batteries-aim-to-rework-the-math-for-electric-cars-and-the-grid-idUSKBN22Q1WC

1) As stated - those are Public Charging points - most Electric cars are charged at home with private charging points 2) As also evidenced - the 'coverage' was still better than Petrol - and over the year that's probably got even better 3) In a lot of City areas you can't even drive a car if its below a certain Euro Category - so you effectively now have no go zones for older cars 4) The provision of EV Charge Points is one hell of a lot more easier than hydrogen fuel supply 5) As has also been explained - a genuine range of an EV is 250-280 miles; the average journey is say 6 miles - so a person would either only need to recharge say once a month - or, if they charge everyday - for a very short period of time. 6) People are just (or even more) as likely to vandalise your car as they are an EV point - it doesn't stop most people buying cars. The same could have also been said regarding the Boris Bikes, or Parking Meters etc. 7) As a result of 5 - people aren''t going to be charging all at the same time - so this 'massive load' that you predict, really is very unlikely o happen 😎 If you have enough space to park your car, invariably there is enough space to provide a charger to that location - as demonstrated in the Guardian article. 9 ) I'm not sure what you think I'm saying is going to happen 'quickly' at all? There will be move to more BEV and Hybrids over the next few years - but clearly not everyone is going to switch over night. However, I think the provision of both Home and Public chargers will be able to cope with that demand. Of course - if the Government, Councils and Power Suppliers sit on their hands and do nothing then we might be in trouble.....

Yeah, but 2021 McLaren switch to Mercedes engines. May be he thinks they'll be better - or maybe he feels that Mercedes themselves will pull out - and the F1 Engine part will become a separate entity in its own right - and McLaren will become the favoured team - indeed they could buy the Engine Company part themselves

Because maybe its not such a challenge as you think it is!? The below are public use ones; not Private.

Looks like its too late - Sainz is to Ferrari and Ricciardo is to McLaren https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52661201

Providing something what isn't there is always a challenge - but not all challenges are that difficult to solve - a bit like deciding which of your 4/5 cars is going tome parked in the most protected location and/or most accessible.....

Out of interest how long do you think you're going to keep it? I don't know how many miles you're going to do in it per year - but say 6,000k - well a new car is probably good for 60k - 80k, if not more, before you probably need to get rid of it. So that's 10-13 years ; bringing you up to 2033. Time will tell - but I think the infrastructure is going to be very different by then, and indeed before then. Maybe - making a big capital outlay, its better to keep what' you've got - and see what's on offer next year, or indeed the year after. I say this as someone I currently work with in Sweden looked at a Hybrid and borrowed one for a period of time. He found the electric range to short, and the fact you had to end up filling up with petrol a pain - so he ended up ordering an Audi E-Tron. Although, I understand that in Sweden a lot of cars are hired/rented rather than bought - so he'll change after 2-years.

So, for you, you're happy to spend money on 2 cars, 1 that (I'm taking a guess) gets used a lot less than the other. I'm n to knocking you for that - that's your life style decision. However, when I owned 2 cars - it was a complete pain in the b*m. I then realised that it was better to have a car that was fun to drive, had a reasonable amount of character and could fulfil almost all the trips I had to do, and on the very rare occasions it didn't, I'd hire something. So, personally I prefer to spend £50-70k on 1 car, rather than an Elise at £40k and an EV at £30k. The 300 mile range is genuinely here (according to WLTP) People (and I don't mean you) complain there's no space to charge an EV (but as demonstrated above there are options even if you don't have your own drive) but are quite happy to say they have 1 car for this purpose, 1 car for that purpose and another for something else. Well in a lost of city areas and suburbs, parking space for 3 cars(or even 2) just isn't available - but every house I'm aware of does have an electrical supply. As for the need to do over 300 miles - during that time most driver would, or should, take a break - the AA recommend every 2 hour, but even if you doubled that then - you are unlikely to have exceeded 300 miles. Frankly, the need to 'recharge' applies as much for the driver as it does the car.

I'm sure 90% of the people don't need to do 0-60 in under 4 seconds - but then 90% of trips that people make are nowhere near 300 miles either. Indeed - according to these figures the average trip is just over 12 miles https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/jan/14/average-uk-car-mileage-falls-again-on-back-of-higher-petrol-prices and the most updated ones confirm it as only 8.4 miles https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-car-journey-uk However, its odd that you spelt out a specification for your 'required' car - that your Elise doesn't fit......and certainly not a type that 90% of the people own.

Odd - never seen anything about those kind of queues in the UK at EV Charging points? However, I have experienced queues at Petrol Stations https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17551558 Given that last year there were more EV Charging points then Petrol Stations https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-has-more-ev-charging-stations-petrol-stations and that trend has continued with more Petrol Stations closing https://forecourttrader.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/18471/Forecourt_closures_reach_100_as_coronavirus_hits_sales_and_staff.html and https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/independent-petrol-stations-fight-survival/ - which is NOT just all down to Corona Virus https://www.alfapower.co.uk/the-death-of-the-petrol-station/ and the significant increase in funding for on street charging points https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2020/05/11/on-street-ev-charge-points-receive-funding-boost I think the probability is that Filling Up with petrol is likely to become more and more inconvenient. Indeed, on a number of occasions I've had to fill up I've got to a Petrol station only to find its closed as the tanker is in - meaning that I have to go even further out of my way - and adding more time to the 'refill' period. Here's some various methods https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/oct/05/electric-car-ways-to-charge Of course - most electrical charging will be done at the persons home in any event - as despite what some 'self-proclaimed' experts allege - its really not so difficult. Fortunately, not everyone has a 'can't do' attitude.

Well, whatever the truth is about the Alonso return, neither Renault nor Alonso are dismissing it - infact they seem to be encouraging it. https://www.planetf1.com/news/renault-fernando-alonso/