Traction control

[SwissV8]

Hi all the group buy prices are listed in the group buyer list thread please feel free to see how much your going to be able to save with this.

I have also been busy persuing avenues for fitment will keep you posted on delevopments when they happen

regards rob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interested in fitment info - IF I go for something, may fit it myself.

If anyone has one already fitted at Donny, would love to take a look, see how it was installed.

My req's are a lot like Jim's - I have a V8, and would be interested in traction plus digital adjuster, but don't need launch control or data logging. Seems that, in order to get an 8 cyl controler with digital adjust, I have to also take data logging etc. ie. top of the line

Perhaps the 6 cyl version with digital adjust would be a better bet?.....

hmmmm.... keep thinking....

[bobbak]

Interested in fitment info - IF I go for something, may fit it myself.

If anyone has one already fitted at Donny, would love to take a look, see how it was installed.

My req's are a lot like Jim's - I have a V8, and would be interested in traction plus digital adjuster, but don't need launch control or data logging. Seems that, in order to get an 8 cyl controler with digital adjust, I have to also take data logging etc. ie. top of the line

Perhaps the 6 cyl version with digital adjust would be a better bet?.....

hmmmm.... keep thinking....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have contacted all global installers of these systems and i am in the process of negotiating a deal for LEW members who just want fitting and set up facilities

although you dont want or probably need launch and logging if it's there and the take up on the group buy make it affordable then why not have it anyway.

regards robert

[DBredS4]

I am curious about the injectors. I have a 4 cyl car with the 2 extra injectors in the plenum. Does it matter what flow rate they are as I have uprated the mains and am about to uprate the secondarys for use with the red race chip.

db

[Nigel]

I am curious about the injectors. I have a 4 cyl car with the 2 extra injectors in the plenum. Does it matter what flow rate they are as I have uprated the mains and am about to uprate the secondarys for use with the red race chip.

db

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

db

I raised this point earlier and I can't see how the controller will operate without the mixture being lean at some stage.The TC will only operate for short periods of time so it's maybe of little consequence.

Without being dramatic , I'm thinking about lean burn and melted pistons.

Maybe someone with a better technical understanding than me could comment.

Would we be safer going for the spark cut interface ?

At this rate I'd be cheaper selling the car and buying a V8.

Nigel

[bobbak]

db

I raised this point earlier and I can't see how the controller will operate without the mixture being lean at some stage.The TC will only operate for short periods of time so it's maybe of little consequence.

Without being dramatic , I'm thinking about lean burn and melted pistons.

Maybe someone with a better technical understanding than me could comment.

Would we be safer going for the spark cut interface ?

At this rate I'd be cheaper selling the car and buying a V8.

Nigel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Guys.

the system is designed to cut the injector signal so as far as I am aware the issue of lean burn is eliminated but as always will pose the question to mike to get a definative answer for you.

regards rob

[bobbak]

Hi Guys.

the system is designed to cut the injector signal so as far as I am aware the issue of lean burn is eliminated but as always will pose the question to mike to get a definative answer for you.

regards rob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The injectors in your plenum are these not your cold start injectors which if my assumtions are correct only operate to give a short burst of fuel into the plenum to assist with initial firing from cold initiated by the injector coil via the ECU

If i am talking the dogs wotsits here ignore me but I am certain i have read this in the manuals

in either case as I said before the tc system control unit works on the basis that it cuts the injector signal thus preventing an injection sequence for the period of operation of the TC event if the injector signal is cut there is no fuel in the cylnder therefore no lean burn therefore no risk of melted pistons

also remember your not cutting the signal to every injector just a proportinate number dependant on the severity of the loss of traction

the idea being you want to re-gain traction so the reduction of transmitted power to the rear wheels because of a loss of cumbustion will serve to do this.

as for flow rates of these injectors i am not sure it is a case of flow rates but rather pressure all the injectors are fed by a common fuel delivery gallery pipe, within your car, which is in turn is pressurised to a constant delivery pressure presumably by the fuel pump.

Each of your cylinder injectors is then opend at the correct interval in a sequence of 1/4 2/3 within a complete revolution of the engine the operation of these injectors is controlled from the Engine controll modual which calculates the the period for which the injector pulse should operate this is calculated on a number of factors.

1)air temp

2)coolant temp

3)inlet manifold pressure

4)throttle positon

5)engine speed

6)vehical speed

7)exhaust gass oxygen content

bearing in mind that the injector pulse is originated from the ECM to the solenoid coil on the injector itself and the TC system interfaces direct to the ECM there should be no lean burn situation

I hope this answers the query but will ask Mike to comment anyway.

regards robert

[Nigel]

Rob

Have done some reading.

This is from the 4-cyl chargecooled service notes :

High Speed/Boost Mode

At engine speeds over 4,800 rpn and boost pressures in excess of 0.68 bar (10

lb/sq.in), a pair of auxiliary injectors in the intake plenum chamber, supply

additional fuel to the engine and augment that from the port injectors.

This would mean that in high speed/boost mode , which is where the TC is most likely to be working , there will always be an air/fuel mixture entering the combustion chamber.

If the secondaries are switched off , the injectors that are still operating will be working 'lean'.

I've not explained that very well , but I'm sure you know what I mean.

Nigel

[bobbak]

Rob

Have done some reading.

This is from the 4-cyl chargecooled service notes :

High Speed/Boost Mode

At engine speeds over 4,800 rpn and boost pressures in excess of 0.68 bar (10

lb/sq.in), a pair of auxiliary injectors in the intake plenum chamber, supply

additional fuel to the engine and augment that from the port injectors.

This would mean that in high speed/boost mode , which is where the TC is most likely to be working , there will always be an air/fuel mixture entering the combustion chamber.

If the secondaries are switched off , the injectors that are still operating will be working 'lean'.

I've not explained that very well , but I'm sure you know what I mean.

Nigel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Nigel.

I know exactly what you mean.

I spoke to lotus technical about this and I am trying to get a definative answer regarding these inectors and the amount of fuel they deliver in retrospect to the primary injectors dependant on the conditions you outline (ie) engine speed boost and throttle position ect.

its my understanding and the belive of the lotus engineer I discussed this with that the percentage of fuel not entering the cylinders for the duration of a tc event would be negligable.

it is however a concern so the other way to look at this is to set the system up to ignore the secondarys altogether and allow the fuel to be dispensed into the plenum as normal.

In a tc event it would be my opinion that during that time along with the signal to the primarys being cut by the control modual for the TC event the ignition cycle for a particular cylinder would also be cut.

This would in essence mean that you would exhaust unburnt fuel vapour/air mix through the exhaust.

this would be harmles unless you were still running with CAT's fitted

this is when the percentage of secondary injector fuel delivery relative to throttle position/ engine speed becomes important, if the fuel delivery via these inectors is minimal in relation to the primarys then the CAT's would largely be uneffected however a large build up of unburnt fuel in the CAT's would significantly reduce thier life.

I am having my system fitted soon and I still have the CATs so having discussed this with RaceLogic also I am going down the route of ignoring the secondarys as the CATs will be coming off.

I hope this helps

regards rob

[jeff_hooper]

Quotes from the Service Notes Section EMM Esprit V8 - Engine Management and Fuel Injection. Dated 1996:

'High Speed/Boost Mode

During periods of very high air flow, typified by a 130 mph road speed. a pair of secondary injectors in the intake plenum chamber supply additional fuel to the engine and augment that from the port injectors.'

I so like the 'typified by a 130 mph road speed' lmao B) ... (I got bits on my car that only START working at nearly twice the legal speed limit - lol at least I know I got a pair of virtually brand new injectors!)

Can't find any other Modes (such as cold starting) that mentions using these plenum injectors. At 130+ I don't think any traction control system will be required to operate, unless your already well on the way to a major shunt that even Herr Schumacher would struggle to resolve. But exactly when other periods of 'Very High Air Flows' might occur I don't know? top end of revs on a sustained full throttle in any gear maybe, in which case these secondary injectors become an issue again for Traction Control injection cut systems.

Other things I've read which may be of interest...

'Deceleration Mode

When deceleration is very rapid, the ECM can cut off fuel completely for short periods.'

So that seems to suggests complete fuel cut is an acceptable activity without engine damage.

Finally in the General description section:

'The eight port injectors are normally pulsed once during each cylinder's complete cycle (sequential injection), with the main fuel delivery into the inlet port timed to occur just after the inlet valve closes, in order to cool the valve, and ensure full atomisation of the fuel/air mixture. A second, shorter period of injection at the non-firing TDC, is used to top up the fuelling when requirement.'

That might of interest... (I have taken the liberty to correct a number of mispellings/tryping errors from the original text)..

Discuss...

Jeff

(I'm a Banker not a mechanic, so hope the quotes might help those with more knowledge than me even if some of my comments are bollocks!..)

Edited February 28, 2006 by jeff_hooper

[Nigel]

Rob

This is an extract from the V8 service notes :

High Speed/Boost Mode

During periods of very high air flow, typified by a 130 mph road speed, a pair of secondary injectors in the

intake plenum chamber supply additional fuel to the engine and augment that from the port injectors.

Didn't realise the V8's had secondaries as well , although from the description they seem to operate differently from the 4-cyl.

If the racelogic controller can cut the spark to the relevant cylinder it will make little difference to have some fuel going out the exhaust (might get some flames , that would be good).

I see Jeff has already quoted this , I'll need to type faster

Nigel

Edited February 28, 2006 by Nigel

[jaysingh]

The two issues of concern here are lean burn and CAT life. If very high speeds (130mph or above!) on a V8 are required to trigger the secondary injectors, I'm guessing that lean burn shouldn't be an issue for normal driving since the primary injectors wont allow a high enough fuel to air ratio when cut, or even if they do, the burn would last for a negligable period of time and shouldn't cause any damage. This seems to be the big unknown from what I've read and would like some assurance that this is the case. For speed driving the TC could be switched off which is an option with the digital adjsuter, but this is a bit defeatist. As for the CATS lifespan, I would want to keep them and would like to know more about the risk of unburnt fuel impairing them.

[Simon350S]

It doesnt cut the spark/ignition unless you fit a spark cut unit which you wouldnt unless you have a carbed Esprit. Any fuel entering the cylinder will still get burnt but the mixture may be weak if the secondary injectors are in use but as the injector cut is alternated it should not cause any piston troubles.

Cant see any CAT trouble as the fuel will be burnt off.

[jeff_hooper]

Just updating my post from earlier tonight.

After my last post I was just wondered whether this 130MPH+ figure (for the two plenum injectors to be active had any relevance to gearing well hey hey...). The ONLY gear your gonna be in at 130+ is 5th (4th runs out at 130ish). Now this is the only gear which the ECU doesn't hold back Torque in... (see the Autocar Road Test from 1996 for a gearing/road speed graph)....

So, Maybe its as simple as the mapping doesn't allow use of these injectors in anything but 5th. So, anyone with a 350 sport or aftermarket programme ECU needs to make further enquiries re Traction Control and these secondary injectors...

Maybe, Markus has some clear insight on the use of these secondary injectors?

Although, respect to Marcus as Valuable Commercial knowledge might be an issue here. Maybe some of the re-mapping is as simple as removing the block on these plenum injectors being fired in lower gears...

Jeff

(A Banker who knows he is really good at counting 10 pound notes but maybe demonstrating his lack of mechanical skill with this post! )

Edited February 28, 2006 by jeff_hooper

[M Blur]

so much could depend in whether you're running standard boost or not.. hopefully Mike wil have a read through and check the position i.r.o the secondary injectors.

[MDB]

so much could depend in whether you're running standard boost or not..  hopefully Mike wil have a read through and check the position i.r.o the secondary injectors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi chaps

Sorry for not replying to any of this - not been in the office very much of late.

I'll have a good look through it all and post up some answers later.

[Nigel]

Have asked a question relating to TC in the Steven's technical room.

http://www.glcforum.com/ukesprit/forums/in...?showtopic=3334

Nigel

Edited March 3, 2006 by Nigel

[lotusracing]

Greetings,

Here is a very pointed opinion.....

I have used these type of systems on many cars. Not the particular system being mentioned...

here is my opinion... please no flames.

The systems that cut power are great for soccer moms in SUVS.

It takes control away from the stupid and can help in many daily situations were the driver does not have the skill to handle the car.

On the Esprit this type of system is very very BAD if one want to use the performance of the car.

It is even dangerous on the track, as there are many places were you NEED more power to get out of problems.

SOoooooooooooooooo

If you want to experiance the performance the car has to offer, and you are a skilled driver.. then stay away from this type of system.

If your mouth is bigger than your skills then this system is perfect for you ;-)

Those with high HP cars and the skill that can not manuveor a shopping cart in the market ;-)

The biggest improvement that can be made is to add the Quaife LSD.

This is the best improvement...

Stay away from the cut power TC systems.

I have used some of the torque bias systems. the ones that use the brakes.

These systems use the ABS and control each brake but DONOT reduce the power.

These systems have been usefull even on the track.

again I am a semi race car driver so I am one that wants to be in control of the car.

Yes in control to the moment I hit the wall at 200mph ;-)

The its I hit the wall... not the D@M TC cut the power and I could not pull out of the spin ... then hit the wall....

When the car is starting to get sideways one needs the power to pull the car back online.

If the power is reduced even a slight amount espeicially in the esprit..

it will spin almost at once...

yes I have spun mine a few times on the track.

But I have missed the walls thanks to be being able to use the power and the brakes to keep the car under control.

The car is amazingly balanced and control is easy....

SO IMHO.... give me the control...

-larry

Finesse Over Power

[Nigel]

Larry

I have a lot of experience with rear wheel drive cars on the public roads and have never been on a track , due to lack of money.

In my youth (some 20 years ago) I spent a lot of time street racing and generally acting like a hooligan.I still drive sideways at times , but am well aware of the ease in which I can find it difficult to "bring it back".This is probably due , partly to a lack of skill and partly to a lack of practice.

I have an old Alfa 75 (Milano) which I do not mind bending but the Lotus is a different matter.

The four cylinder chargecooled Esprit has a particularly aggressive power surge around 3500rpm which in damp conditions easily spins the rears (in third gear).

29 times out of 30 you can control the car , but the thirtieth time you are facing the wrong direction......

On a track this is no problem , but is of course no use on the public road , especially because of the red face.

The racelogic system , according to the literature cuts the injectors / spark plugs sequentially and allows slip from 0 to 20% depending where you set the control switch.

So you are not cutting the power but reducing it.

What I require is to be able to floor it an a wet roundabout and sail round with max power (tc controlled) and traction.

I'm tired of holding off the power at this time of year on long sweeping bends , whislt cars with less power can keep it pinned.

Cars like Mitsi Evo's work on the brake principle , so I assume it is better , but this option is not practical for me.

I've seen a lot of posts similar to yours on other Forums , denegrating the use of TC , takes away driver control , OK for mums on the grocery run etc.

However I want TC so I can drive faster not slower and I didn't hear the F1 boys complaining when they had TC and I'm pretty sure their system limited the power from their engines.

If you were looking for a bite Larry , I think you got one

Nigel

Edited March 4, 2006 by Nigel

[Jonathan]

I want it for a different reason other than that as well.

Personally I'm not interested in using the Esprit as a race car for the road, I simply want it to cut in IF I'm about to make another painful mistake - added insurance I suppose - whilst in the mean time improving my driving skill with the car.

There is no substitue for a good driver, thats never been in question, traction control is simply a tool, a drivers aid. If I want tail out action I get in the go-kart which I practice in quite a lot, it handles better and is a lot cheaper / easier to replace if it goes wrong on you.

All horses for courses.

[jeff_hooper]

I remember a discussion I had years ago with an amateur rally enthusist/driver. I came about as I was saying front wheel drive/understeer is nice and sensible and safe for joe public/my gran.. He was adamant that for EVERYONE rear wheel drive was absolutely the safest...

Yes, I like the respect I have to give the car as it WILL bite me, if I so much as think about being a bit too agressive with the engine volume control...

Yes, I fully undersatnd why two specialist insurers told me to come back after 12 months ownership suggesting that if the car was still in one piece then I had qualified as a reasonable risk and they will give me a nice quote. And why a third insurer just repeated the, 'what other high performance cars have you owned?' question, despite me having told him of several hot hatchy 'sports' cars, and some heavily tuned rear drive classics, that I had owned over the years! None of which got anywhere near an adequate response to his question!

Question.. why does (almost) every volume manufacturer producing BHP outputs of say 200/250+ fit these systems or often better (many of which you can't actually switch off completely despite a button on the dash which suggests you can!). Without checking What Car I'd speculate the same applies to almost every LOW volume main stream manufacture (not your Caterham and Noble's!) as well, especially when power outputs get over 400BHP (ie. Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin et all).

Because in a high power performance car Mr Average would spend a lot of time in hedges and in killing people and themselves without it..!!!

Personally, having driven and had use off a coupel of high performance race prepared kit cars, Caterhams, Lotus Esprits, and a couple of Ferraris. I think anything with enough performance to do 0-60 in sub 5 seconds should have some sort of TC or better still integrated stability system for regularly used cars out in all weather. UNLESS the driver is either WELL above average on skill AND experience. Or VERY attentive and patient ALL of the time. I want a TC system out of prudence and peace of mind, as I cannot claim to be able to drive with the care and concentration of the bloke that trains road traffic policeman!

I do regular track days with mates that race kits and I was second in my first 100 National go-kart race many years ago in a very short lived career. The guy that won had spent three times my money on his engine tune and payed someone to look after his kart and mechanic for him at the circuit, whilst he turned up in a suit in his Porshe!)

I also run 5 cars, I'm 44, with nil accidents - ever (well reversing in a car park one time, cost me

Edited March 6, 2006 by jeff_hooper

[MDB]

The two issues of concern here are lean burn and CAT life. If very high speeds (130mph or above!) on a V8 are required to trigger the secondary injectors, I'm guessing that lean burn shouldn't be an issue for normal driving since the primary injectors wont allow a high enough fuel to air ratio when cut, or even if they do, the burn would last for a negligable period of time and shouldn't cause any damage.  This seems to be the big unknown from what I've read and would like some assurance that this is the case. For speed driving the TC could be switched off which is an option with the digital adjsuter, but this is a bit defeatist. As for the CATS lifespan, I would want to keep them and would like to know more about the risk of unburnt fuel impairing them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Firstly, the thing to ascertain is how much fuel these secondary injectors deliver.

In order to get any combustion at all in a cylinder, there needs to be about 80% of a normal fuel delivery - the actual window for combustion is really quite small. So you could inject 50% of a normal fuel delivery, and the result would still be a complete misfire as there just wouldn't be enough fuel to create to create the required conditions. (50% fuel causes the A/F ratio to reach about 1:25 - way outside of stoichiometric conditions.)

If the flow capacity of the secondary injectors is significantly smaller than the main ones then they can be simply ignored - they will not be flowing enough fuel for this to be an issue.

In any event, Traction Control can be turned off at a pre-set speed if you wish. This configuration is normally used if the wheel speed signals seperate at speed, causing unwanted misfires. However if you want TC simply to not operate when your secondary injectors come in you can, and it shouldn't really have any effect on safety as wheel spin at this speed is quite hard to achieve.

On the subject of catalytic convertors, if fuel exits through the exhaust onto a cat over a sustained period then it will not last long. This problem doesn't normally exist because cars which require a spark cut don't have a cat anyway, but if anyone on here has this setup then you'll need to bear it in mind.

Hope this answers your concerns.

[MDB]

I don't like getting into arguments about whether or not traction control, as a general principle, is a good or a bad thing. I completely understand why an enthusiastic driver might not want the interference of a 'driver aid', and it must be said that a LOT of OE traction and stability systems as fitted by car manufacturers are dangerous and late-acting at worst, and at best make for a dynamically dull driving experience (BMW is guilty of this.)

That said, I often come across opinions such as 'Traction Control is my right foot' and 'I want to be in control and not leave the driving to a computer' and these are generally made by people who have never tried our system. Racelogic Traction Control is designed to make the car faster to drive, end of story. The safety aspect is a happy by-product.

[sanj]

I don't like getting into arguments about whether or not traction control, as a general principle, is a good or a bad thing. I completely understand why an enthusiastic driver might not want the interference of a 'driver aid', and it must be said that a LOT of OE traction and stability systems as fitted by car manufacturers are dangerous and late-acting at worst, and at best make for a dynamically dull driving experience (BMW is guilty of this.)

That said, I often come across opinions such as 'Traction Control is my right foot' and 'I want to be in control and not leave the driving to a computer' and these are generally made by people who have never tried our system. Racelogic Traction Control is designed to make the car faster to drive, end of story. The safety aspect is a happy by-product.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very succinctly put!

[jaysingh]

Thanks for the reply Mike, that's useful to know. What percentage of fuel is cut by the Racelogic system, does it attempt to cut fuel completely or limit it to 50% per cylinder during the TC event?

[DBredS4]

just had a thought and I appologise if it has been raised before, too busy to read the entire thread. The TC cuts fuel as tarction is lost. We are always going on about the dangers of running lean causing knock and subsequant piston damage especially on turbocharged cars. Am I barking up the wrong tree here or what??

db