88' , X180 adding chargecooler?

[MrDangerUS]

Question to all who worked on Esprits for much longer then me.

I would like to add a chargecooler to my 1988, X180, equipped with Bosch K-tronic mechanical injection.

What do I need to do to modify or recalibrate K-tronic and engine management system?

In my opinion,

since K-tronic is a pressure driven ( precursor of the fully electronic MAF system),

it should be easily adaptable to additional air mass resulting from lower air temperatures.

Please give me some pointers.

Thank you.

Edited October 11, 2010 by MrDangerUS

[Rich H]

No experience of K-Jet on Esprits, but my Porsche 924 Turbo has K-jet and people quite often add intercoolers to them.

Basically as you are metering the air before the turbo it makes no difference, the turbo is still sucking the same mass of air as the meter is a mass-flow measurement device.

You will need to recalibrate the idle fuelling most likely, we use CO meters and set the idle fuel, but you can't do anything about it's 'fuel map' you can just move the whole 'fuel map' up or down.

The 'fuel map' is driven by the shape of the air meter funnels, so as the meter plate rises the funnel it rises into is a very carefully designed shape.

It will go better and you can turn down the fuel slightly as the cooler air will allow you to run leaner without pinking.

Your best bet for more power would be run a bit more ignition advance as the cooler air will allow you to, if it will still idle still with a couple more degrees of base timing.

Basically I would think you need to be looking at programmable EFI most likely to get the best out of your chargecooler.

[lotus4s]

John,

Unless you don't care about how much money you will lose by doing the mods you are considering, you'd be way ahead of the game to sell your car and buy an SE. Adding a chargecooler can and has been done but it's not a simple or inexpensive mod to do and it will seriously devalue your car and limit your prospective pool of buyers when the time comes that you want to sell it.

On top of all that, you're still going to be limited in how much hp you can add by your Citroen gear box which is near it's limit now and parts are getting more expensive and harder to find everyday.

Modding your car will cost you thousands in the end and still won't be worth as much or be as fast as a stock SE. And the later models are infinitely easier and cheaper to mod for more hp.

If I were you I'd do everything I could to learn about your car and get it in the best possible mechanical and aesthetic condition you can and then pass it on in good shape to another owner and upgrade yourself.

Just my 2 cents...

[MrDangerUS]

Jim,

Thank you for the words of wisdom. That is my exact plan.

Besides, with a double nickel speed limits, this car has enough power to get me into a trouble.

[MrDangerUS]

Well, I have read a little on the topic of CIS and since I decided to keep my current car (Only 26,566 Miles) for a while, I may mod it just for fun of experimentation.

I agree, the Cirtoen gearbox is a weak link.

BUT, I can get a Cryo treated unit which will give me an improvement in durability (i.e., resistance to wear and fatigue) around 100 percent. The typical increase in strength after cryo treatment is up to 50 percent.The deep cryogenic tempering process for gears is an inexpensive, one-time, permanent treatment, affecting the entire part, not just the surface. Gears may be new or used, sharp or dull, and reshaping will not destroy the treatment.The process has a number of obvious benefits, including increases in tensile strength, toughness, and stability through the release of internal stresses. The exceptional increase in wear resistivity, generally exceeding 200%. http://www.ds-vitesse.com/en.html

Theoretically, engine produces more power if it packs more air into cylinders and get more fuel. The air mass is a primary atribute, fuel volume is a secondary.

More air mass= colder air (chargecooler) or more of it (hybrid turbo, higher boost), or both.

Furthermore, to handle additional air flow when the metering plate bottoms out, auxiliary flow port(s) with spring flap(s) can be added to the OEM plate.

To tweak fuel map, stock fuel pressure regulator (in fuel distributor) could be replaced with raising rate external unit calibrated to the P of boost.

Edited November 14, 2010 by MrDangerUS

[Artie]

Well John, if you do plan to modify the car and are looking for denser air charge, you might consider a water/alky injection system that could easoiy be removed if u do find a later model SE you want later down the road. Adding a chargecooler is quite involved and very costly! I know because I have done exactly that! I got very lucky however, finding a local donor car with all the needed components after a total salvage! Read up on alcohol and water injection if you haven't already.

[rogerch]

Artie, tell me more about the "water/alky injection system" I've already come to the conclusion that Charge-cooling is not worth the effort, but would be interested in a less involved solution.

[Artie]

Well Roger, I'm no chemist but the premise is, by using a high pressure pump and atomizing nozzle, you inject a predetermined volume of a mix of water and alcohol into the intake, somewhere before the throttle body/plates. As the injested mix is introduced into the engine it helps cool the injested fuel and air charge since water has great antidetonant properties as well as a cooling effect when atomized. Now, alcohol(methanol is the usual suspect, but isopropyl works too) does a similar thing when atomized, but adds another aspect to the mix besides cooling, it is also a fuel! Do a search on google for alcohol or water injection, they are really keen on it with tuner cars like the toyota supra and rx7 in OZ! You Brits really discovered it in WWII! You guys put it on the Rolls built Merlin engine for the P51 Mustang! The Germans were using nitrous!!!

[rogerch]

Thanks, let the research begin.

[Artie]

Ill be adding a brand called "Boost Cooler" but ill be running the isopropyl alc as it isn't at corrosive to aluminum! Methanol can erode the aluminum considerably depending on concentration levels. Do a search on that as well. Also, lots of rotary engine friends with big turbos run straight water mist injection! Helps ward off detonation and steam cleans the engine!

[MrDangerUS]

Thanx, I found it here http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=6

and http://www.pmtdiesel.com/_e/dept/36/Boost_Coolers.htm

How much did you pay for the kit?

[Artie]

Well John, I haven't purchased the kit yet. I will probably compile pieces and make my own kit as I like one companies pump and it's characteristics, but I like the jets from a different company, etc. I believe there is a less expensive low boost one out there called the "cooling mist" which is or was on ebay a while back for about $300 or so. I plan on making a bladder for the alcohol that will mount back in the trunk along the very back wall under the lights, but that way it can drain completely and be fitted a little more temporarily than a giant jug I would have to bolt to something! In many aftermarket supercharger kits, they include a bladder to take the place of windshield washer tanks to make room for cetain plumbing etc so I'm looking for one of those in larger capacity!

Artie

[rogerch]

Hi Artie

I'm too looking at ebay at a methanol alcohol injection kit. I know it's a bit like the piece of string question but I'm trying to get an idea as to how long say a litre would last, I know the flow is controllable so you wouldn't have it on going down to the shops, but say spirited driving, when you want the max. Blowing off that pesky Porsche.

[Artie]

Well Roger, I wouldn't put a tank in for my kit in anything less than a gallon, which is about 3.8litres. A litre wouldn't last long at all depending on nozzle size. Id presume your turbo is making about .85bar or so. Id think you would need a gallon size tank or larger. Ill be doing approximately 4 to 5 gallons in my tank with my alky injection.

[stevem]

I read on t'internet that a typical system uses about 15% of the normal fuel consumption when the system is operating, so for 1 litre of fuel it would use 150ml of water/alcohol, so a 5 litre tank would be used up in about half a tank of petrol if used excessively or might last for a full tank of fuel under 'normal' driving conditions. There's some cost effective kits out there in ebay land, it looks like a fairly simple job. "just a high pressure pump, a vacuum operated switch, an injector nozzle and a bit of pipework and wiring for a basic system." Most websites seem to think that on a turbo/carb engine somewhere just before the carbs is a good spot to insert the injector/s. The intake plenum might be good where it bends and flattens before crossing to the carbs.

I'm looking forward to seeing some results posted here, will it make a noticable difference or not worth the bother ?

Edited February 4, 2011 by stevem

[karmavore]

FYI...

My research is telling me the AEM Water/Meth injection system is the best out there: AEM Water Injection Kits

Check out the videos: Product Videos

...and review: Review

[MrDangerUS]

Ecellent idea! Simple installation and low complexity.

Two controller systems cought my eye:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/

http://www.coolingmist.com/detailmain.aspx?pid=VC2FS

What do you think? Worth getting one?

I like these, because you can control injected volume in function of the boost.

Best Regards

Edited February 21, 2011 by MrDangerUS

[chris]

Hi,

I fitted an Aquamist 1S water injection system to my 88 esprit turbo. I had four jets which were drilled into the inlet manifold and fed from a custom made 8 litre tank which bolts nicely into the rear left boot alcove (opposite to battery). This meant that I didn't lose any boot space and nothing could obstruct or restrict the flow of the water (I had the water pipes running outside of the car to aid in keeping the liquid as cold as possible) . The boost switch to activate the water pump was installed in the electronics bay in the boot with the coil etc whilst the pump was under-slung beneath the battery so that it was sufficiently low enough for the gravity feed from the tank. The control relay lies on top of the right hand fuel pump next to the purge pump which gives enough length on the wiring to mount the two LED's into the heating panel. One LED indicated when the pump was on and the other was a low water/alcohol sensor indicator.

All in all I reckon it was quite a nice install, however I've now sourced a chargecooler and associated parts so have taken the water injection off ready to fit the new bits. I had thought of using the water injection in tandom with the charge cooler but having had many disscussions with pete of PNM he say's that the charge cooler actually over cools the 88 carb turbos so cant see a need for it.

Only reason I went down the chrge cooler route was:

a. parts were offered at brilliant price

b. I have fitted an electronic boost controller and so am possibly looking at running a significant increase in boost for short periods and

c. I want my esprit to be as fast as her younger siblings and am to emotionaly attached to sell her and buy a s300 or S4

Reason c isn't a good reason but its the most important!!!

Any assistance I can offer any one on water injection please don't hesitate to ask, alternatively if you want the kit including everything you need for the esprit install then drop me a line and i'll let you have the lot for esprit mates rates. Would rather have one of you guys get some use out of it than it just sit on my workbench in the garage.

Cheers

Chris

[stevem]

Hi Chris

I'm following this thread with interest, and wondered whether in your opinion does the water injection system make a noticable difference to your Esprit performance ? I've read lots of theory about these systems, but haven't found any subjective reports on the results. I guess what I am asking is - It all looks good in theory, but in your opinion does it work ? I was hoping Roger would have a go first and then report back on his findings.

[chris]

Hey Stevem,

Water injection is a safety feature rather than a performance multiplier. Its really all about boost pressure. The biggest problem with upping the boost is pre-ignition or pinking/knock. With a charge cooler you make the air colder and denser through what is effectively a water fed intercooler. With Water Injection your trying to cool the intake charge just before it enters the cyclinder (Please forgive me if i'm teaching you to suck eggs here mate). If you plan to turn up your boost pressure significantly then I would suggest a chargecooler however, if you just want to tweak it a little higher then in my opinion water injection is the way forward. If you then start adding methanol to the mix then not only are you reducing the risk of the water freezing (something you probably dont need to worry about) but you have an explosive kick similar to the theory behind NOS although not as potent.

The thing you need to decide is when do you want to use water injection and for how long?

Is your car completely standard?

Ideally you want to have a method of switching between two boost levels. When the car is set to the standard level of boost then the water injection is turned off, when the higher setting is dialed in then the water injection comes to life. The best way of running two seperate boost levels is with an electronic boost controller running instead of your overboost pressure switch. This allows you to switch between settings at a press of button. The other method is a bleed valve which can be manually adjusted. They both work the same by bleeding pressure off conning the turbo into spinning up further however personnally i'd go for the controller every time as its more accurate and safer.

I have no test results to show you unfortunately but personnally I just felt better running my car at a slightly increased boost when the water injection was functioning. I had the car set up on a rolling road by a race mechanic who was measuring the ammount of knock that was present while upping the boost level. We settled on a level that was kicking out 264bhp however all rolling roads and cars are different. Mechanic reckoned it could go further however I wanted driveability not one hit wonder drag racing style. I had the wastegate actuator set to 0.8 bar or approx 11 psi. You notice it more in the higher gears if i'm honest.

Its down to how much money you want to spend and water injection is easier and cheaper to fit to your motor than chargecoolers.

If you have any other specific questions then fire away buddy.

Cheers

Chris

[stevem]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the detailed reply, you answered a few questions. My 88 Esprit Turbo ( carby's ) is standard, no mods at all - I think I'll keep it that way for now as it seems to run OK with teh stock boost pressure.

[cazna52]

Chris, I would be very interested in hearing how your charge cooler conversion goes. I am quite keen to do this as well at some point. Aquamist is a lot less appealing to me as I drive every day and I think I would get tired of filling it up all the time.

Are you running carburetors or have you converted to EFI? I understand that the plenum on carb models sits in the wrong place to attach the charge cooler. Also where are you planning to mount the radiator? The SE had a different front spoiler and radiator layout which I think prevents putting the charge cooler radiator in the same place on an 88 without a lot of work. I had read someone suggest using the left side air scoop to the engine bay for cooling the radiator instead.

[rogerch]

I'm at the bottom of the learning curve on this one Justin, but my take was you have the controls up front on the dash and for every day driving it's not activated. Only to be used when that DH in the Porsche gets ambitious.

I too considered the charge cooler route but came to the same conclusion as Artie, too much work for too little return. I have an idea (for much later on) where I can configure the cooling without having to plumb the full length of the car, but it would mean changing the turbo, so not cheap.

[chris]

Hi,

My car is a carb turbo and I reckon there's two options for chargecooling:

1. Use chargecooler from the SE

2. Buy aftermarket new chargecooler

I found an interesting kit on the internet which had a cylindrical charge cooler, pump, radiator etc for approx £800 but then I was offerred a Lotus one courtesy of a top guy on this forum for cheap as chips so took it.

Alot of people who have done this use the air con radiator which I presume you need to use for its intended purpose? I dont have air con on my car so have room at the ront for another rad.

As far as i'm aware the SE bumper bolts on exactly the same way and although things like spotlights and air vents were altered its not so much so that you couldn't modify your existing bumper. Couple of options is an air scoop below the lip of the front bumper or reduce the size of the spotlights. Alternatively put some NACA style ducts in and pipe them to where you want them. If you are really struggling for space you could think about modifying your front radiator tray to allow room for your chargecooler rad. Altrnatively fit an SE or S300 bumper to the car depending on what look you like?

As far as the alignment of the plenum is concerned you can either cut your existing pipe or simply buy the stud from an se or later car. It will need one of the holes blanking of with a bolt but personally I think its better option than wrecking your std pipe just in case you want to return it to standard at any time.

I thought about trying to use the air vents into the engine bay, was specifically thinking of the opposite one to the air intake however the key to chargecooling is the bigger the rad the better and I couldn't find a suitable size space to mount the rad. One option I toyed with was to use the vent as a way of directing cold ram air onto an intercooler. Intercoolers can cause lag if the track between turbo and plenum chamber is too long however you wouldn't need to redirect it much if at all. The only problem I could see with this system was the temperatures in and around the engine bay which may completely oppose any gains made. I'm not clever enough, have the time or inclination to work out the temperature transfer rates and heat soak properties so sidelined that idea.

As far as rodge was saying about the water injection he's right, you can either connect it up to an off/on switch if you like or like on mine, it was set to automatically to come in at a certain pressure therefore would only inject water when the car was a maximum boost (above std max boost). That way you dont inject water all the time and therefore lasts longer unless of course that DH in the porsche is very persistant or simply in a 2011 car.

Hopefully some of this massive reply has helped mate, as I said above if I can help any further please dont hesitate.

Cheers

Chris

[cazna52]

Thanks for the reply Chris, that gives me a few things to think about.

I had considered an after market charge cooler, there are a lot of cheap ones on ebay, but I think i will try to get hold of a Lotus one. Even though I want to modify my car I don't want it to look modified.

I think mounting the radiator will be the main problem. On the non-SE model they have one oil cooler mounted in the middle, on the SE model they put two oil coolers one mounted on either side. I think this was to make room for the charge cooler radiator. So I think it is necessary to either find another place for the charge cooler radiator or to find another place for the oil cooler. Seeing as the oil cooler is smaller it would probably be easier to find another place for it. Not having air con you will have a much easier time, but being in Australia I don't want to part with my air con, too damn hot here sometimes.

At some point I should make a template up that is the size of a charge cooler radiator, then I can play around seeing where it could fit.