Cayman GT4 vs Exige v6

[Freejack]

I meant really that the GT4 should have the full power 911S engine.

 

The GT4 is just with the 385 HP too close to the icone 911

 

Problem is, that they need to avoid destroying the iconic state of the high price 911 and replace this by the low price Cayman.

[The Pits]

That's their problem, not mine. If I was a Cayman buyer I would want the best Cayman they can produce for the price. The GT4 clearly isn't. It would cost Porsche nothing to offer it with 400bhp, maybe even LESS! It would drive me mad if Lotus took 20bhp off the Exige to 'protect' the Evora and unless there was a very quick and cheap way to restore full power it would put me off buying an Exige too.

 

This is where the next Exige Cup becomes very interesting. Lotus have announced 450bhp for the 311. Will Lotus offer that tune or pull it back to 'protect' the 311? Or will they need to reduce the torque to protect the gearbox in a heavier car? They might have a genuine engineering-led reason to reduce the power on heavier models. Naturally I hope they stick with 450bhp if possible and end this GT4/Exige debate once and for all. It's still game over with 420bhp of course but I think Lotus needs to be going 'all out' at this time. If they are to rebuild a brand for the future they need a bit more of Colin Chapman's audacity today. The 311 absolutely shows this and has already got people talking about Lotus again in a more positive light. But why stop with the 311? GT4 owners can go on about residuals, comfort, stereos and practicality all they want. The car in front says 'LOTUS' on the back!

 

[kokostrollet]

Another GT4 benchmark test in the Swedish version of German AMS right now. Have to say it was way worse than I could have imagined, just further proof for me that Swedish car media systematically favor Porsche which becomes obvious for anyone seriously interested in sports cars:

 

http://www.automotorsport.se/tidningar/2015/automotorsport/2918/172015-29-basta-bilkopen-och-stort-sportbilstest/

 

So, what they did is that they compared the Cayman GT4 with a Lotus Exige S Roadster and a used, second hand (!) Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera on the comparison basis that they "have the same price". It says the -08 Lambo is appr. half the new price (still claimed the most expensive of the three), but not as far as I can see, how many km it has been driven in total. 

 

They come up with two score boards: One for the "best car in total" and one for "best sports car". Needless to say, of course the GT4 wins both and here are all the total scores:

 

"best car in total"

1. Porsche Cayman GT4, 26 points

2. 2nd hand Lambo Gallardo Superleggera, 23 points

3. Lotus Exige S Roadster, 19 points

 

"best sports car"

1. Porsche Cayman GT4, 29,5 points

2. 2nd hand Lambo Gallardo Superleggera, 27,5 points

2. Lotus Exige S Roadster, 27,5 points

 

Beyond the numbers, they complain about the lack of a "real differential" and no R-tyres on the Lotus which makes it difficult to "get the power down". Not sure what they mean here, as far as I understood it, the Roadster comes with a locking diff as standard right? The footnotes says the car has the "premium and race option packs". They also don´t like that when you are two persons in the car, you might actually touch each other, which "isn't nice".

 

With the Cayman they are quite contradictory in their conclusions. On the one hand, they say it´s a car only for the track and they don´t like the gear ratios (similar to Chris Harris), but still it wins easily overall. 

 

The used Lambo (borrowed from one of the test team members friends, probably going on sale in a few weeks...) is claimed to be an "amazing alternative if you cannot wait for the GT4 as long as you don´t break a carbon side-mirror" (apparently, those are 3.000 € each!)

 

If the above made me a bit irritated, the part that really made me pissed off are the track comparisons. They mention two tracks, Mantorp Park in Sweden and Hockenheim and Hockenheim is the only one presented with any numbers whatsoever. 

 

For the Mantorp Park (a fast track, not too technical) comparison, they have no numbers at all but claim that "the Lambo pulverizes both the GT4 and the Lotus on that track". Well, definitely possible, but difficult to say if they didn´t even time the cars. For the Hockenheim Ring, I thought it was funny, because I kind of recognized those numbers from somewhere. Then it struck me! It´s in fact exactly the same numbers as the Sport Auto Exige S Coupe vs. Cayman GT4 test numbers that are in this mag!! They just copied them and indirectly claims (they never write anything about where those numbers come from) it´s for the Roadster! There are of course numbers for the Lambo as well, I assume they have stolen them also or completely made them up just to add them to the test chart. Holy shit what a shit show! 

 

Finally, just when I thought I could not get more pissed off by all the fluffy cheer-leading of the Porsche as well as the Lambo, I notice that the prices claimed for the cars used for a comparison are with the Porsche as a standard car with only Sport Chrono when I can clearly see on the interior pictures that the test car has the full Club Sport package (and likely a lot of other stuff on it as well). 

 

All in all, just a very shitty review (they actually claim they have "the best car tests in the world"!!) and I feel sorry for all those 98% of their readers who actually think it is and don´t read between the lines and beyond the claims.  

[simon mac]

Having just driven through Sweden, one thing is for sure, the Exige would pull more crowds than the Caymen, irrespective of how many spoilers it has stuck on.

 

The Lambo (and I will be honest here, I did briefly consider one instead of my Roadster) would probably draw more attention. The cost of ownership is in a different league however, even if the used price matches the new price of the Lotus.

 

It also has a completely different image.  People would actually be interested in the Lotus with much more chance they realised you'd bought the car for it's driving qualities, rather than as a show of wealth  (or is that genital inadequacies )

 

I can't begin to say how many people had genuine interest in the car, I literally lost count, every petrol stop involved a chat, and everyone was very "friendly" about the car.

 

It's hard to put a finger on the exact nature, or quite how Lotus can capitalise on this aspect of their cars.

[Arun_D]

 

Beyond the numbers, they complain about the lack of a "real differential" and no R-tyres on the Lotus which makes it difficult to "get the power down". Not sure what they mean here, as far as I understood it, the Roadster comes with a locking diff as standard right?

 

No, all current Lotus  have an open differential, apart from the new Evora 400 and 311. The Exige has an approximation to a locking function managed by the ABS controller which applies the brakes to the inside wheel when slip is detected.

[Jokke Vlo]

An Exige V6 with the right mods beats the Cayman GT4 EASY, believe. I beat it at Spa with +/-3 seconds (with the right mods)

 

I drove the GT4 last week. Even a standard Exige V6 cup will beat it. 

 

 

 

Pls update the Exige V6 asap. (LSD, gearbox, front triangle), the Exige has much more potential. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by Jokke Vlo

[C8RKH]

Result of comparision in Sport Auto

 

Lotus       Porsche

17               20              Lap time HHR 1,11,6 - 1:10,4

20               20              Slalom 18 m 73,3 - 73,7

13               12              0-100 km/h  4,2 - 4,4

14               12              100-0 km/h  32,6 - 33,8

13               12              Power to weight ratio   3,3 kg/ps - 3,6 kg/ps

10                9               Price to performance ratio  932 € - 1225 €

 

87                85             Result

I don't get the last bit - only a 1 point difference for a price to performance ratio of almost 30% in favour of the Lotus!!!  Hmmm, how can that be and if it was a more "accurate" figure then surely the difference would be more than the 87 to 85 it was, or, would Porsche not allow that "big" a difference?  What have I missed / miss0understood?

 

And to another poster who reckons Lotus lose out on egineering for not going that last 2% - well with that sort of price to performance ratio they have much mullah to spare to really go after Porsche and my god, if they did produce an Exige or Evora at the same price point can you imagine what the other figures would look like. The futures bright, the futures green & yellow and from Norfolk!

[Freejack]

Most of the people ask, why a 200 kg lighter car a less corner speed. I beg for testing the cup in the future !!!

[Jokke Vlo]

Because the front has a lot of understeer, even if you change alignment (which is only possible in a limited way). 

 

Just drive both 1 on 1, easy to understand. 

[Freejack]

Because the front has a lot of understeer, even if you change alignment (which is only possible in a limited way). 

 

Just drive both 1 on 1, easy to understand. 

 

I know this very much, my guess is, that this is caused by the soft rear suspensions. Stiffer rear will keep the front down to ground which works against understeer. So my theory. Will get new springs in 2 weeks and will update here. New dampers are installed.

[Jokke Vlo]

Which suspension you have? Because I changed to nitrons, but it stays the same. I can cut it a little on fast tracks with the right downforce mods, but in on slow tracks........ I indeed stiffens the rear quiet a lot on track but even then....

[Freejack]

Jokke, I got adjustable prototype dampers from Bilstein. The type is MDS, the best to get from Bilstein. (These dampers have much less adhesion than standard dampers and you can feel, how fast they eliminate an uneven surface on track.)

With a bit more camber, 1:10 there is still understeer after turning in and move to gas. I just ordered new steering arms for more camber, but beside this, I feel that the cars pumps from the rear. Today I am still suffering with my Trofeos in front. TrofeoR in the rear are fine now, new R for the front are available in September. In October I'll be in Spa again to know more about the setup.

 

The weight distribution of the car is very similar to a 911. 1/3 in front, 2/3 in the rear. This means I will go for a setup which is similar to a 911.

 

(What I find curious, we both are 911 drivers and we're suffering with understeer. All others not)

 

[Top cat]

(What I find curious, we both are 911 drivers and we're suffering with understeer. All others not)

 

 

 

The reason why you and Jokke are suffering understeer whilst most  other people are not is because Lotus have designed this car for the general public and sell most Exiges with the optional Race mode. As you know this Bosch system limits the available power to eliminate understeer on the exit of bends and most of us me included don’t do enough track days to be comfortable with running flat out with the DPM system switched off on a 60k car even if we did we will have learnt from using the system approximately how much grip there is. I know from watching Jokke’s videos he is an excellent driver and all things being equal the race mode will just slow him down because he has his own style ( built in race mode )

You have to remember Lotus have to build a car to attract as many people to the Exige as possible and not for the handful of drivers who regularly go on track with good driving skills, even though it is promoted by us lot and Lotus as such.  

I think in previous Exiges the inherent  design meant understeer could be neutralised with set up, I guess with this car being a heavy lump ( comparatively ) and with more power it is not so straightforward to eliminate.

[LF1]

I am probably wrong here (event next month to find out categorically what race mode is all about), but I thought race mode did not do anything to eliminate understeer, I thought that was only tour and sport modes?

[Freejack]

I am probably wrong here (event next month to find out categorically what race mode is all about), but I thought race mode did not do anything to eliminate understeer, I thought that was only tour and sport modes?

 

Yes, this is true. Manual tells step1 will eliminate under- and oversteer, step2 will eleimnate oversteer, step3 is traction control only, step4 is "all off".

 

I am dealing with understeer during begin of accelaration, not during turning in. While I am turning in, the compression gives more neg. camber to to front, so that's fine. Problem starts after opening the brakes and start psuhung the gas pedal.

[Top cat]

 ^{For Understeer, Race mode you can floor it at the apex and  the system will only allow grip i believe. if it detects understeer it takes it way . I believe Sport mode allows some slip and Race mode even more but i think that is the rear end, ie oversteer. The Monkey Harris lap explains it.}

[Freejack]

You don't need to be that loud.

 

I don't want the system to take away the power. I want to have the maximum power on the rear and grip on the front.

And this is impossible with bone stock steering arms in combination with the regular ride height.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Freejack

[Top cat]

 I am on my works computer and for some reason the font size is timy so i just write it in word and paste across.

 

Sorry about that.      

[Jack]

 

I am dealing with understeer during begin of accelaration, not during turning in. While I am turning in, the compression gives more neg. camber to to front, so that's fine. Problem starts after opening the brakes and start psuhung the gas pedal.

Frank, are your current shocks adjustable, compression and rebound?  Will the new Bilsteins be adjustable?

 

I'm also finding mid-corner understeer to be a problem even with more than 2 degrees of negative camber, although I can minimize it with some shock adjustments .... front, trying stiffer rebound/softer compression; rear,  trying stiffer compression, softer rebound ..... attempting to slow the weight transfer front to rear when trying to get to the throttle early, before (or no later than) the corner apex point.  Unfortunately, stiffer rear compression can result in possible throttle oversteer at times.  New tires up front definitely helps with understeer.

 

The problem is that these adjustments are always a compromise .... improving handling in certain areas on track and hurting it in other portions.

[Freejack]

Jack, the new ones are adjustable compression and rebound. When the new springs are in, I will try to makes some tests according to your recommendation. At the end, I guess that the softer rear is the main cause for that behavior. Your idea to have a stiffer compression in the rear will work against this.

 

I am just dealing with Bilstein about the spring force for the rear. 8th October is test run in Spa

 

The new front tyres are still ordered, waiting for delivery.

[Jack]

Jack, the new ones are adjustable compression and rebound. When the new springs are in, I will try to makes some tests according to your recommendation. At the end, I guess that the softer rear is the main cause for that behavior. Your idea to have a stiffer compression in the rear will work against this.

 

I am just dealing with Bilstein about the spring force for the rear. 8th October is test run in Spa

 

The new front tyres are still ordered, waiting for delivery.

Sounds great.  

 

Let me (us) know what spring rates you Bilstein decide to go with.  I thought that the rear Ohlin spring rates that came on my car were quite high ... maybe not?

[Freejack]

Jack, of course I know the spring rates of the cupR, but the Bilstein guys told me, that this high spring rates are necessary, to keep the cupR in an aerodynamic balance because of the downforce. Regular V6 or Cup can go with less springrates, because they only need to handle the dynamic weight.

Furthermore I need to have in mind, to drive the LF1 on regular streets.

 

Regular V6 with race pack comes along with 57 and 75 N/mm. First idea was to go for 70 - 100, which is a lot more in %.

[Jokke Vlo]

I could agree but it is a pity you can't adjust the cars set up enough to make it as you want, which you can do on a 911.... this kind of cars attract people who loves the pureness of driving too.....

[kokostrollet]

Well, obviously most people wanting a GT4 is requesting a PDK after all. 

 

http://www.worldcarfans.com/115090298376/porsche-cayman-gt4-to-get-pdk-transmission-gt4-rs

 

Quite interesting news if that is correct. I am pretty sure I have heard Preuninger in an interview reason before, that the choice was either manual or PDK for the GT4 as the Motorsport Dep. could not produce enough cars anyway to motivate two gearbox alternatives... 

[Arregueti]

Just a teaser, but it looks like Pistonheads listened to those saying that the GT4 should go face-to-face with the V6 Cup. The picture suggests it is the "old" Cup, though.

 

http://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-potw/lotus-vs-porsche-pic-of-the-week/32839

 

Wait and see for now.