More Offenses, Specs Cameras and Fines

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

This is doing the rounds. We are 99.5% sure that this is NOT urban myth (as confirmed by more than one guy in the force)

We have been discussing this for some time elsewhere. I and others have done reccies of the tunnel and have seen what we believe are specs cameras for the NORTHBOUND bore but as yet have not seen anything watching the southbound 40mph bore.

One of the guys has even undertaken a test I suggested and has driven through 'at speed' to see if he gets a fine (as it's a no-pointer)

I have suggested a whip-round between the guys over there to help pay for this experiment!

Does anyone here *KNOW* the law as it pertains to this? As they are neither police nor a speed camera partnership - I suspect this would not withstand a legal challenge but I do not know this...

[Note to other mods - I have pinned this topic for now - just so people see the warning. In a week or two once everyone will have read it... unpin it then!]

[brucet]

How do they detect that you are speeding? Radar guns mounted on the camera units? Do you folks have radar detectors over there, like the Valentine One that many of us on this side of the Pond use and love? I won't even turn the key in my car until I make sure the V-1 is in place. Or are they illegal over there (as they are in two of our States--Virginia and Connecticutt)?

Brucet

[Bibs]

The guys on Pepipoo (who know about these things!) are adamant that this isn't true. I've asked them to justify their point and will let you know when they get back to me

[Advantage]

But they are getting fed up with people like Fishy being hooligans in their tunnels!

You noisy buggers!

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

AHHHH The Islington Gazette story!!!

I've been through the tunnel myself and seen the cameras in question and they do indeed have IR floodlights attached (for ANPR)

There are photos of them on the other place - I shall try to cross post them.

The memo itself has been confirmed as "existing" by more than one serving officer and also by someone who works for Traffic control in the huge great red building beside the tunnel!

PICS HERE!

[Bibs]

Pepipoo's current response is that no one appears to have been Nip'd by them and requested help as yet so they can't be real. It's a fair point as they've been there for a couple of weeks and even TFL must have to at least publish fine guidelines or follow the law on notification?

[Laura]

I go through the blackwall tunnel every day (to & from work), to be fair I do it in rush hour and the mere thought of travelling through it any faster than 5mph is laughable.

I've noticed they have now put up lots of 30mph lights all the way through one side (I thought it was the Southbound side actually but I'm kind of on autopilot on both journeys) but I haven't noticed any cameras... I guess that's the idea though.

I'd be interested to know if this is true for the odd occasion that I travel through it traffic free.

[Tentenths]

Hmm - they look more like CCTV traffic monitoring cameras to me, but I could be wrong

All the SPECS cameras I've ever seen look like these -

SPECS manufacturer - Speed Check Services - website showing SPECS installations throughout the UK. Only three for London (Upper Thames Street, Tower Bridge, and Holmsdale Tunnel).

London Safety Camera Partnership's listing for Greenwich. Updated 22/01/07 - camera at Blackwall mentioned but not as digital, so probably Gatso or Truvelo

Finally, TFL's site on Blackwall Tunnel works/improvements - video incident detection mentioned but nothing about speed cameras

That said I'd still be inclined to take it easy through there for the time being

James

[Jonathan]

No sign, no fine - simple as that.

AFAIK a fixed installation must be visable and signed xxx amount of yards. It also has to be clearly visable (usually painted yellow or hi-vis markings).

I still haven't had a suitable answer to why the gantry one on the M25 are legal, mainly because the boys in charge don't know there was a regulation either !

BTW the more advanced speed cameras now work on distance measurements, they are completely passive and extremely accurate.

The latest trick by the theiving *******s in my neck of the woods is to hide a mobile site directly around the corner from a 30 sixed scamera at the bottom on a 4:1 hill

Just have to keep your eyes more open looking for scameras now.

[andydclements]

No sign, no fine - simple as that.

AFAIK a fixed installation must be visable and signed xxx amount of yards. It also has to be clearly visable (usually painted yellow or hi-vis markings).

I still haven't had a suitable answer to why the gantry one on the M25 are legal, mainly because the boys in charge don't know there was a regulation either !

AFAIK the high vis requirement is only if the body running them want to retain any of the funds, if they don't comply with those regs then the money goes to the central government pot- the Chancellor.

That might explain the M25 ones- don't know of / notice any on recent M25 journies but may not have used that 1/3 of it recently.

If I was a good person and obeyed the speed limit perfectly on the road having just passed through the Blackwall tunnel I would have save myself from destroying a PDA- the one that stayed on the roof in my personal organiser all the way from a previous appointment then jumped off under several cars wheels when I got really moving. I'm surprised I didn't get a fine through the post for littering the road with my business cards as well.

Andy

[Bibs]

http://www.tycotraffic.com/Press-Room/Proj...furbishment.pdf

^ report detailing new CCTV system in the tunnel!

Hmm - they look more like CCTV traffic monitoring cameras to me, but I could be wrong

SPECS manufacturer - Speed Check Services - website showing SPECS installations throughout the UK. Only three for London (Upper Thames Street, Tower Bridge, and Holmsdale Tunnel).

Poor Upper Thames St! As well as multiple Gatso's, SPECs and red light cameras, now this...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/pre...t.asp?prID=1041

Not bad for a half mile stretch of road which has probably not had an accident in 50 years!

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

Interesting stuff...

The Blackwall tunnel refurbishments are for the southbound bore but those pictures and the 'spotted' cameras are on the Northbound bore

It is indeed very true that internet myths very rapidly become 'fact'. (Remember the B.S about the specs cameras on the M4!)

There are loads of camera signs all the way up to the tunnel and even one at the tunnel entrance (see pics) but iirc none IN the tunnel.

Alas they do not have to paint all cameras in hi-vis - they USED to have to but you have (the non driving) Gwyneth Dunwoody to thank for that change.

I agree that they do not conform to the 'usual / expected' configuration for normal specs cameras that we are used to seeing but I've seen them, and they do come with huge great I.R floods attached (see pics)

(This I accept does not, of course, immediately mean they ARE specs!)

It will be interesting to see what happens to the guy who has run the 'hi-speed test'!

I shall read what pepipoo have to say about it now.

There have been some very reliable sources confirming that this is true - unless they've all fallen foul to the same BS?

[EDIT: CHECK THIS OUT!!!!! Rob Dob at work!!!]

GET OFF POSTAL OFFENSES!!!

http://www.pepipoo.com/images/MCN/MCN_05-Apr-06_b.jpg

The last article they ran on it (there are more - go via pepipoo)

http://www.pepipoo.com/images/MCN/MCN_28-Dec-06.jpg

[Tentenths]

Took the bull by the horns - emailed the SPECS manufacturer/installer and asked the question. Whether or not I get a reply remains to be seen...

James

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

I know one of the guys has put in a written Freedom Of Information request with TfL to try to confirm this or otherwise.

[Tentenths]

I'm impressed, they replied....

From: "@speedcheck.co.uk> Add to address book

To: <james>

Cc:

Subject: FW: SPECS - Blackwall Tunnel, London

Send: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:05:31 -0000

If there is anything there, it is nothing to do with us.

G

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: admin

Sent: 01 February 2007 09:23

To: G

Subject: FW: SPECS - Blackwall Tunnel, London

Kind Regards

Administrator

Speed Check Services

T: +44 (0)1276 698980

F: +44 (0)1276 698988

admin@speedcheck.co.uk

www.speedcheck.co.uk

6 Helix Business Park, Wilton Road, Camberley GU15 2QT

Speed Check Services Ltd is registered in England No 3540380. Registered office 4 Enterprise Court, Downmill Road, Bracknell, Berkshire, RG12 1QS. This email message is confidential and for use by the addressee only. If the message is received by anyone other than the addressee, please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from your computer. Internet emails are not necessarily secure. Speed Check Services Ltd does not accept responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent.

-----Original Message-----

From: James B [mailto:james.b]

Sent: 31 January 2007 18:44

To: info

Subject: SPECS - Blackwall Tunnel, London

Wonder if you could answer a question for me?

There's a story circulating on the internet at the moment claiming 'small undetectable' SPECS cameras have recently been installed in the Blackwall Tunnel. I've checked your website and whilst you list three installations in London (Tower Bridge, Upper Thames Street, Holmsdale Tunnel) there is absolutely no mention of anything at Blackwall.

Accordingly I'd be most grateful if you could confirm whether or not there is any substance to the story, or is it simply an 'urban myth'?

Many thanks

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

Good work

It's reportedly run by TfL...

Their answer was:

***************************************

Thank you for your email.

Our engineers have advised me that there are no new cameras in the Limehouse Link Tunnel.

The only new equipment in the tunnel is loudspeakers, which are currently being fitted to the roof of the tunnel so that the Police Control Centre can make public address announcements in the event of an emergency or incident in the tunnel.

I hope this answers your query, but please let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

Regards

Graham Hurt

Senior Customer Service Advisor

Streets Customer Services

TfL Surface Transport

***************************************

This is proving a deeply interesting topic to me... Even if it is to end up disproving it as snake oil!

This was posted up a few days back by the original poster:

As for the subject in question, the information was sent to all Met Traffic cops from one of the South West Control room Sargents warning us to beware. As the control room is the building with the red window frames on your left as you enter the southbound tunnel I think they are aware of what goes on in the tunnels. I am working tomorrow night so I will give SW control a call and see what else I can find.

Posted up by someone else:

I've just spoken to a good friend of mine who actually works (fairly high up) nights at blackwall on the maintenance teams and asked him about the accuracy of the info', he has said at the moment that he knows nothing of there being speed cameras or ANPR purely standard CCTV. However he also said that nothing would suprise him just that he would be suprised that he hadn't heard about it, he will be asking some very direct and pointed questions in the control room this evening and report back with a definitive answer.

FOLLOW UP:

Right just got a call back from him as he'd phoned his opposite number in maintenance who directly looks after the CCTV and it's all true, sort of

Yes average speed monitoring cameras which also can be linked to ANPR systems have recently been installed and they are now live having been signed off over the last few weeks (he actually asked the guy who had been doing the speed tests on a motorbike through there at night) they are very difficult to see and monitor the rears of the vehicles so that motorbikes are not immune, however apparently they are a new type of camera i.e. not standard specs and as such the type approval for prosecution is in question, the story put out to all the contractors up there is that they are for "monitoring purposes only" and will not be used for any prosecutions (yet) However when I read the exact text of XXXX's post he laughed and said "yep wouldn't be suprised" but he is in work tonight and will be asking another couple of people who are in the know the exact details. He did also add though not to worry too much as they won't bloody work as F all in that tunnel does and the rats will take out the system PDQ anyway as they always do

[Bibs]

^ average speed camera courtesy of Traffic Master!

Sounds like some bloke has been having a laugh about all this and how much he can wind the UK up!