Esprit Turbo project car - part3 - the further continuation

[silverfrost]

I have learnt plenty from this thread,   One of which is i never knew lotus metallics or any other car maker for that matter did not use clear coat until the late 80s !   I always thought clear coat was needed for metallics.   Has got me wondering now if my 85 silverfrost paintwork has or has not got clear coat ?  If it does not then fxxk knows what i have been T cutting through on the one rare ocassion i got the polish out on her. 

I still cant see a true metallic paint not haing clear coat,  this has boggled my mind as surely after a few polishes or dirt ingress metalic paints would of looked shxxe after a few  months out of the factory 

 

[Lotusfab]

Here's a theory.

There are articles on the internet which state  manufacturers have become better at making the flecks of metal in the paint. They are flatter and more reflective. I believe they have expanded the paint codes since the 80s fir metallic to included a greater variance of metal particles. The only problem with A19 is in light it is more reflective which makes the colour look lighter. So it seems to me the only component of the code that needs changing is the metal content.

Think I will call the manufacturers and see if they can help. I need to find someone who was around in 1980 and has not retired! I may also try and chat with the lab that is making a colour match for me and find out how they match metallics. Maybe I could suggest my method of taking a metallic component from another paint and using this with the A19 formula. Maybe it's not that simple and I don't know enough yet. I like these challenges as it's always interesting to learn new things. 

[Andyww]

3 hours ago, silverfrost said:

I have learnt plenty from this thread,   One of which is i never knew lotus metallics or any other car maker for that matter did not use clear coat until the late 80s !   I always thought clear coat was needed for metallics.  

 

As I mentioned above, the ICI part number listed for A19 in the service notes is a clear over base coat paint. ICI type P422. So this code must have had a clear coat as Fabian has concluded from the fuel cap.

The service notes do list a few cellulose metallics though so it must have been possible to do metallic without clear coat. One of them is Essex Blue. These are series P421 paints and on the ICI website these are described as "Single layer metallics". ie no clear coat.

Some colours such as Essex Blue, Monaco White and Calypso Red have two or more Lotus codes for different paint systems, ie A21 for clear over base Monaco White and L25 for a single layer Monaco White.

On the metal flake issue surely the flakes would lose their shine after 35 years to some extend and the fuel cap would look dimmer than when the car came out the factory?

 

[Lotusfab]

When I get the samples I will have a microscopic look. There's a lot of factors in the spraying, curing time etc that can affect how bright the paint appears. When the samples are side by side the metallic looks very different. The original doesn't reflect anywhere near as much light as the newly sprayed A19,  even after polishing the original. The flakes are sealed so I don't think time would have such a great effect. Other new paint codes such as the Chrysler one Neil found have a very similar metallic. It looks far flatter and not as glitzy. I know where there is a paint sample that has had no UV exposure. It's under Matts Vin plate! He's already said though he's not taking it off as the car is done☹️☹️☹️☹️. Any other volunteers? 

At the end of the day if I can't sort this I will paint it A19, the same as Jos -I really like his car!

 

[Lotusfab]

Thanks for looking up the paint codes Andy. I need to get this correct for obvious reasons!

[Andyww]

43 minutes ago, Lotusfab said:

Thanks for looking up the paint codes Andy. I need to get this correct for obvious reasons!

Its always fun researching this kind of thing. Its great that someone is applying this level of detail to these cars. This kind of thing is done all the time in the world of Ferrari and not before time that the Esprit got this level of attention!

Its amazing though how the actual Bond FYEO cars from the movie is still something of a mystery as evidenced by the very long recent thread discussing them. We are still not really 100% sure whether the white car(s) were changed to copper or whether they were different cars and various people who claim to know have different stories. All interesting stuff.

[CHANGES]

This discussion has been brought to my attention , Maybe I can throw a be of light on the situation..   There are so many factors to consider that influence the paint and colour..   First the original paint back then were primary cellulose, You could get a straight metallic but in main a clear coat was used..   What the main consideration should be is the paint its self.  Cellulose degrades over time and will absorb moisture if not polished and waxed.. Further more the base coat will have bleached with UV with some of the pigments being more vulnerable than others,  this will effect the metermerics and change the tint accordingly. The clear coat also being cellulose will have yellowed, it always does, this again will change the tint by acting as a colour filter.  This can enhance some pigments and dull others..   So what you are seeing on the original paint now,  will be very a different shade to when it was first applied...  Trying to match this will be very difficult.  The only true way would be a blend out over large area if partial painting, or full paint in a quality product, tinted to correct shading from the original codes. (keeping a note of tinters). References to the metallic content.... There are loads of metallic flake options with colours not just silver fakes, in this case i expect its just silver flake,  The size and density is the key and is available from the original code.. However product have change and improved over the years so expect a small difference..   There is some references made to comparisons in light and shade to a sample comparison.. If this is off a chip comparison then use it only for colour shading guide.  How the metallic lays down will be depend on the application method,  ie  fluid tip, air cap type, fan width ,air pressure and cfm , and even the amount of thinners used along with booth temp when applied..  all will effect how it comes out..  This is why all  paint repairs are blended into adjacent panels to create a match these days. ... edge to edge they will be out but blended look the same..   To get your chosen pigment of paint get a small amount mixed, then then test spray a card ,  NB .. the test cards have a white prime coat, i suggest you try the new paint over different primers , and a base undercoat if doing a copper colour.. This will influence final shade as most newer paints are more translucent than the old celly paint.   Also insure your lacquer coat is water clear with no tinge.. cheaper paints can have this ..  Once you are happy with the colour tint , vary your gun pressures and fan size along with the distance you spay panel from. Do this on your test cards and make comparisons .  If still not happy with metallic content try different gun set up.  I would be looking at a 1.4 wide fan with 2 bar air at 12 -18 inch application distance. for that type of colour.. with drop coat if required to bring up extra sparkle.. 

It is difficult to put into words how you can influence paint finish/ effect just by how its applied,  but maybe these points will help you find the correct tint/shade needed.     

D            

[Fridge]

Wow @CHANGES! Thanks for some clarity. Backs up my own experience of 2 old car original metallic paint jobs. Can you confirm that 'T' cut will not really be effective on a paint that has had a 'knacker' lacquer applied? I was under the impression you can't actually cut back such a paint.

It's one of the reasons I went for a L25 2-pack paint over the A21 'Clearcoat' variety which will not necessarily have the original Monaco White look of the 1970's cars. I await the results, but if as good as on my other cars it'll be accurate, hard wearing and can be cut back with time.

Fabian, I assume you have looked at the A19 paint codes and its constituents before going off on this journey? It's the place to start. Perhaps you need to concentrate on the metallic components? These seems to be the portion of the ingredients that may have changed over time.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Fridge

[Lotusfab]

I left this to the professionals, but because I can't afford it to get it wrong and interest  I have got involved. I am unsure how to break the code down. I would love ,to know how to get the components Metallic parts out if the code. The Eason being the Chrysler paint My sprayer has found has a very similar metallic appearance. This metallic content combined with the Lotus A19 pigment could be the answer?

Neil at Thompson Body Repair has a paint lab working on the problem, so hopefully a solution will be forthcoming. 

[Andyww]

2 hours ago, Fridge said:

Can you confirm that 'T' cut will not really be effective on a paint that has had a 'knacker' lacquer applied? I was under the impression you can't actually cut back such a paint.

 

I can confirm that. I had an Excel which was Calypso Red clear over basecoat and it had turned pink. There was absolutely nothing that could be done. It was either a case of total respray or sell it and I chose the latter. 

[Fridge]

Thanks @Andyww suspected as much.

I know that unless a respray is done in ultra clean, factory environments there is a danger that particles can find there way into the final paint, under the clear coat. Which is another reason to go with a paint that can be cut back, or mopped etc. (I'm not a painter).

I think from previous posts on this, with metallic paints the lacquer options are limited. I suspect that Lotus always used a clear coat on their metallic finishes from the 1970's onwards.

Metallic paint has always been a problem for post-factory resprays, and as @CHANGESstated, work was done by eye due to the vagaries of finish and ageing.

[CHANGES]

9 hours ago, Fridge said:

 Can you confirm that 'T' cut will not really be effective on a paint that has had a 'knacker' lacquer applied? I was under the impression you can't actually cut back such a paint.

Knacker lacquer or 1k is a different animal used for quick cosmetic repairs , just that . it does not usually hold its colour quality or shine for long... looks great when first done,, but short lived... if you wax it and keep it clean it may give you service but once it subsides there is no coming back... when its old and hard you can get a bit of luster back with a fine polish like G10 but hard work for such small reward.. Also don't use 'T' Cut. on it .. 'T' cut has chemicals like ammonia in it that are designed to soften the paint surface when applied . this aids the cutting process.  Not suited to all paints.. Also NEVER leave it to dry it will etch into the paint and stain it...  the old G7 had the same chemicals in and was used to recover old paint with a mop.. You needed to mask off the area's not being worked as the odd spray particle would leave freckle stains if not wiped off quickly..  When knacker lacquer has been applied any repaint in quality paint will require it removing first or isolating with a bar coat.. 

2k is still the best paint to work your finish , very versatile and hard wearing, BUT always buy quality , there is some cheap stuff out there.. on the lacquer, again go quality, with the type best for the application . The 2080 HS will give you a superior finish with a good film thickness, ideal if you are colour flatting and polishing,  lots out there to choose from..      

[Lotusfab]

Back to basics!

front suspension has all the new bushes pressed in. The lower links are impossible without a shop press. They also took all day because the outer metal part of the original bush had sheared off in the link! Finally removed this in both links and pressed in the new bushes. The upper wishbones were easy as the bushes are far smaller. 

Currently making the brake pipes. Be careful here as the pipes are a mixture of single and double flares. You can't get this wrong. Inspect the fittings as male or female connectors change the flare requirement. The tool I bought is invaluable. Really very difficult to do this properly without the correct tools. 

Protech adjustable shocks going on the front and original brand new shocks in the rear. 

You need about three meters of pvc for the chassis holding clips. 

Pleased with how it's coming along, just need to get the paint correct!

[TAR]

Need more pictures!  

[Andyww]

I am thinking of removing the Protech shocks and fitting the factory front and rear, the fronts will need to have the spring platforms removed.

Are you planning to do anything with the factory rears though as from memory on my first Esprit, they start to rust within about 5 minutes of being fitted as the thin layer of paint on them is no rust protection at all. Not sure if anything can be done to improve things.

[Lotusfab]

No not at the moment. Just need to get the chassis rolling with anything BBS wheels and if the shocks rust sort them later. 

The brake line are taking longer than I had hoped. Basically the new T piece connections are different to the original. This means you have to drill the chassis or the pipes are all in the wrong position. I have blasted the original connectors and shall be reusing them as the internals are perfect. Now blasted they look new. Am still working on the front pipes. ????

I have about 5 weeks to get this rolling for the body pick up. 

[Andyww]

Yes I remember when changing a Europa chassis the brake pipes took frigging ages, easily the longest task.

[Lotusfab]

I have parts coming from S and J, Lotus bits and PMN. Might as well do everything while it's apart. I have been cleaning the chassis pipes internally with POR15. There's lots of crud. They will they get a power flush. Any attempt to replace these as they were would be folly. They should be spotless when the cleaning is complete. 

I'm now an ace at making single and double flares, I've had a little bit of practice! 

[silverfrost]

Cant wait to see a fully painted up rolling chassis 

[Lotusfab]

It's taking time, but getting there! I should finish the brake lines tomorrow and start to build the suspension. The brake tool is a godsend. Every flare perfect and quick.

[Lotusfab]

Paint 

can't help think there is something wrong with the A19 paint code. To me it looks to light compare with the fuel cap and original car.

[LOTUSMAN33]

Difficult to really tell Fabian especially with the aged laquer, don't forget the bottom image has been painted hence the HC bonnet. Door also looks darker than wing which maybe where the paint was blended?

Upper bond image looks stunning but you are relying on film footage. I am sure you will crack it soon! ??

[Fridge]

As I've said said before, if you are comparing with photos or DVDs, films, Blu-ray you'll be on a hiding to nothing.

As I work in the industry, and there are all manner factors that will determine the colour of images, both moving and still.

Unless you have taken a spectrograph of the original car (if that's your bag) then you have little hope to be honest. Even then, that will have faded.

I therefore assume you are joking.

[silverfrost]

As David says Fabian,  Compairing photos would be bloody hard even more so on film footage etc as i presume they use lighting etc for the cameras and so on.   Also as Changes said in his detailed post the colour outcome can even be changed by the way the mettalic coat is layed down by different sprayers etc.  

Its a hard task as most of the paints on the bond cars and the bond replica cars will of not been tweaked when sprayed,  I personally like the very rich copper coloured one, but as said that may be a trick of the eye due to the white snow background.  

Also as changes said in his post about the chemicals have changed over the years so unless you find a tin of old celly paint that has been left in a cupboard at hethal and has not dried out it will be near impossible to get the exact match,  also i presume you will be using 2 pack which again will not give an exact match imo.  

But i love your enthusiam and attention to detail,  but feel you may have to just maybe go with a colour sample that you yourself like the most and is nearest to the bond colour also 

[Lotusfab]

I had the same colour problem with the ski bindings. They had used lamps for filming which had change the colour. When I found on set footage with natural,light it was obvious they were a stock colour.  Will see what the lab comes back with. The edges of the cap where the sunlight hasn't got to it do not match A19 and as I have said before the metallic content looks different. Will contact the manufacturer and see what their experts say. Think your correct though Dan in the end may just have to pick one based on all the info. I will of course have an exact match to the fuel,cap. That may be the way to go unless I can find another Copper Fire car that still has th under bonnet area intact. Then I could possibly match to that paint. Soon I will have all the info and will post the results.