Lotus Exige Cup 380

[Dani]

2 hours ago, quantum2000 said:

Fully agree with what your saying. I'm on my 2nd Exige V6. I was one of the first back in 2013 to take delivery, then changed to another in 2015.
I paid just over £50k back in 2013, and similar in 2015, I just cant see how it can justify a near on £40k increase now.
Looks like my next move will be away from Lotus, I've paid a deposit on the new TVR that's coming
 

Sorry for the offtopic. Do you have info about the new TVR?

[The Pits]

That's massively off topic!

Can you pm each other or start a new topic instead please?

Thanks

 

[550superfast]

If I were Lotus I would have replaced the V6 with the 350, called it the Exige V6 350.

Then some time later launched the 380 Cup, this would have had all the Motorsport bits fitted as standard and be very light and fast.

Then some time later still the 380 Sport would have come along, with power from Cup 380, but less focused and more usable everyday, take out electrical cut off and add a stereo etc, less carbon stuff as it is not needed, but options to add if desired.

It would cause a lot less confusion with model line up and pricing structure.

The 380 Cup looks a great car - I think all Exiges from day one are great cars. But for me I am happy with mine, looks better - less cluttered and cleaner, plus post SSC TVS1900 goes significantly better than the 380 will.

 

 

[geartox]

I think that you are missing the main challenge with this new Exige release : "can I park this car in my garage with this awesome big bad ass wing and can I use that for hanging out the laundry ? " because now,  I have to sell my apartment and live in my garage.

[Ray32]

I was recently looking at a Mercedes Benz A45 AMG (Facelift-e 2016 model), perhaps as an alternative daily driver to my 2015 Exige CR. A pocket rocket which could serve as a family carrier if necessary, with a very lovely interior to boot. The new facelift model now includes adaptive suspension, new infotainment system, upgraded trim, extra 20+ horsepowers, and so on. The extra cost from the pre-facelift model? A bit under 200 quid in my country. That's reasonable for a facelift from Mercedes, if you ask me.

I see myself as a 'new generation' Lotus buyer who has zero prior knowledge of Lotus cars beforehand - neither do I know anything about their racing heritage. Previously, buying a Lotus would have been the very last thought on my mind, and that changed only when I stumbled upon an online article by EVO which piqued my interest. I saw a sexy little car which is pretty on the eyes and sounded like a hell lot of fun to drive. More importantly, on paper it looked like good value for a vehicle comparable (arguably) to a high-end sportscar/supercar. An affordable fun sportscar with semi-supercar looks, finally. I didn't bother with the Evora S because I didn't like how it looked - not to forget the extra weight. Upon test driving the Exige S, the cheap and dated interior did in fact turn me off, and so did the lack of standard bits that come in most new cars. The thick side sills were so ridiculous I laughed at the fact that I had to figure how to get in. The vague gearshift irked me a bit, coming from a car with a much more positive shifter. The turn signal/wiper stalks were laughable at best. And where is the glove box? Truth be told, right then from a non-Lotus fan's perspective, the Exige was ridiculously unappealing. However, the test drive itself was wonderful enough that I told the salesperson I wanted one right after the test drive. And what a 'ride' it was.

I could live with the drawbacks, if it was that fun. So I ordered the Exige CR in October 2015, thinking it was the newest and best model they had to offer at that point in time (bar the Cup models, of course). Reasonably priced for the performance too at about 56k GBP list price. While waiting for my CR to arrive, there came the news of the Sport 350. Ahhh, a small update which made it slightly better. Bummer, but oh well. One year after, there's the 'newer' Sport 380 which actually gave a small power increase, updated aesthetics, although the interior is still the same. Bummer once again... my CR suddenly feels outdated now. That aside, I actually consider the Sport 380 a true facelift model, while the Sport 350 itself was just a slightly different iteration of the S/CR model. But wait, the price has gone up by a full 10 grand in the period of one year! For a car which, let's be honest, is not much different from the car they introduced in 2011. And as for this new cup car... I can think of a handful of other lovely cars I'd rather have for the money.

I understand that this new pricing strategy is part of Lotus' tactic to be profitable, but it's just downright unsustainable. To receive value, you simply have to give value. And as much as I would love to own a Sport/Cup 380 since it's the newest and fastest Exige model, most buyers (or potential buyers) who are like me will find it extremely hard to justify the prices they are charging for these 'updates'. There are only so many hardcore Lotus fans who would continue to buy their cars, perhaps up to a point where they start questioning the rationality of buying essentially the same cars, over and over again. The sad reality is: Lotus just doesn't have the brand power or prestige as some of the more established players in the industry, and attempting to command that premium is not going to make them a luxury brand. Not with that decidedly early-90s interior. Not without a large-budget refresh of the entire line of cars.  As it stands, I genuinely fear for Lotus' future. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Ray32

[The Pits]

Well that's cheered everyone up! 

I'm not sure why some were expecting something very different. It's simply not possible without major new investment. The Exige is a unique proposition in the marketplace, I don't want it to change much and I don't want a fancy interior. Great seats, great steering wheel, precise gearshift, harnesses and a TFT screen with laptiming would suit me fine. I like the exposed aluminium, it's a lovely material, I think there's room in the marketplace for one genuinely stripped back, compact, pure sports car. The Evora does a great job of being a more substantial, sophisticated car with more of an interior. It bridges the gap neatly between the Exige and something like a 911, from a dynamic and driving point of view anyway.

The all new, bigger, easy to get into, dct paddleshift, designer Exige may we'll be less to my liking than the current car so I'm glad Lotus are continuing to develop it. I still rate the S2 Exige as one of my favourite cars of all time and would be very proud to own a 260 Cup, RGB or Scura. I don't subscribe to the view that newer automatically = better. In fact, one of the things I like best about the Exige is that it's not like most new cars. No EPAS, no electric parking brake or seats, no rear wheel steer, manual gearbox, no iPad in the dash no fake noise from the speakers and so on. Long may that be the case!

[cbaileyuk]

I don't think many on here would argue with the core of your point, i.e. the less is more purity of the brand. I certainly wouldn't. We are all on board with that (I expect). 

The issue is selling another version of less is more that is essentially the same as every other version that went before it. When it comes to purported variations with a significant cost increase, then less is definitely not more. To warrant *big* price hikes the brand has to provide big (real) improvements and differences. People with this sort of spare cash like to know where it is going. We all know this is a fibreglass tub over a modified Elise chassis with a Toyota v6 lump at the back. It's been like this from the  v6 guise day one. Strapping aesthetics to that is completely acceptable. As is strapping tyres, shocks, seats, a set of four points, no argument. But charging 30k above the current baseline with no real driving difference, that's a bit awkward. I think lotus is a fab brand and the car excellent but particularly over the last year I have noticed muktiple roll outs of their market stimulation attempts by way of adding minor modification to what is essentially the same vehicle For someone that was amazed by the first drive in a lotus all those years ago, this current stab in the dark marketing  approach to it's incumbent customers, particularly over the last 12 months has turned me off the brand more than turned me on to it. You simply don't know where you stand with them at the moment. You buy and weeks later there's something new.

 

Colin

Edited April 21, 2017 by cbaileyuk

[SFO]

The 350 Sport 50th Anniversary was the best deal

 

[JayEmm]

I think as stated above Lotus need to attract new business. The Evora did that for me.

One area worth considering is depreciation, now I know Lotus cars are superb on that front BUT here's the issue. Because the new Exige is over 80K, and a nice V6S can be had for under 50, a lot of people are assuming the V6 S cost a similar amount new and are afraid it has taken a huge hit. Same with the Evora, so many think it depreciates massively because they see a 2011 car at 50K less than a 400 and assume that's what happens, or assume the 2011 cost the same.

I don't know what Lotus can do about it but from my YouTube feedback (hardly a great metric, but the best I have), Lotus need to improve perceived value for money. Taking things away and charging more is popular with Porsche but doesn't always help when it's your main product line (GT3 sales are a tiny part of 911 sales). The Exige and Elise have so little left to take out it is a bit of a joke. Resorting to dry weight figures is not cool either in my books. Or Hethel lap times, a meaningless number really seeing as there is no Hethel time for a GT4. 

Maybe Lotus need to take a leaf out of the old Porsche playbook - the 968 Clubsport was stripped out, basic and cheap. It sold brilliantly. 

Im not saying Lotus need to build an SUV, but Ferrari built the California and despite it not being a very "Ferrari" car, a huge number of buyers are first time Ferrari owners. 

And, as has been mentioned for a couple of years now, what the F is the point in a track car you can't track in the UK. A track friendly exhaust would have been a very worthwhile component of the Cup and may just have been enough to make it worthwhile as a separate model.

[Swiss380Cup]

As previously written and read here, the whole strategy seems confusing, and the continuous roll out of more expensive models without major changes makes it difficult to "swallow".... Now we're getting with this 380 Cup in the territory of 2nd hand GT4 and even first year 991 GT3 if you go full options with the Exige 380 Cup..... gets dangerous..... i love, really love the whole light is right concept and after 3 GT3s (2 RS) and 1 Turbo S, the main reason I switched was because I want a performant car as close as possible to a race car without having to strip it out of all it's electronic and leather trim....which has become the case with the newer generations of GT3s, full of electronics and leather....getting heavier, and more saloon like, f.....g fast saloon I agree but still........ but Porsche had a very different philosophy with that car.... IT'S A ROAD VERSION OF A REAL RACE car.....the Cup, R, RSR line of cars, which have competed around race tracks in the world with great success and are often considered as the "cheapest" and most reliable race car you can have....... and the message is clear....follow the development of the Cup race car, and you'll know what'll be coming with the next generation of road GT3... look at the preps of race teams, and you'll have a hint too..... But with Lotus, confusing.....it appears that they have to keep this model alive (and I thank them for that, I'd not want an Elise or an Ever.....), and throwing out some spar cash, but they should focus on real improvements at a comparably reasonable price......new GT3 and GT3 RS have been in the same price range for a very long time, with increases in line with the improvements (larger and new engines, sequential gearbox, etc. etc... and not MASSIVE increases justified by carbon panels and / or the inclusion of the options of the lesser model....... Sorry but I have that impression... A basic 380 with track pack and some other minor improvements would be enough for me and almost the same car as the 380 Cup which will cost FAR more as I understand since somehow they force you into having all the carbon.... they you don't really care about, unless you want to leave the car in your living room....... I'd rather have real motorsport improvements, like LSD, motorsport radiator, larger or even ceramic brakes, improved engine cooling, etc.... that would be a real CUP car......

Or fully optioned model with a striped out real CUP version with the motorsport improvements...

It's a little worrying but the next one and the next one might help us understand on what path Lotus was on with the Exige SAGA....

[Swiss380Cup]

55 minutes ago, JayEmm said:

I don't know what Lotus can do about it but from my YouTube feedback (hardly a great metric, but the best I have), Lotus need to improve perceived value for money. Taking things away and charging more is popular with Porsche but doesn't always help when it's your main product line (GT3 sales are a tiny part of 911 sales). The Exige and Elise have so little left to take out it is a bit of a joke. Resorting to dry weight figures is not cool either in my books. Or Hethel lap times, a meaningless number really seeing as there is no Hethel time for a GT4. 

Maybe Lotus need to take a leaf out of the old Porsche playbook - the 968 Clubsport was stripped out, basic and cheap. It sold brilliantly. 

Fully agree with that..... Lotus should be more precise on the figures it provides (weight, etc, ) and definitely take it's cars out on REAL race track and compare it's times with race drivers on board.... I'm sure they'll do brilliantly..... it's sad to see that the only figure we get on the nordschleife is one from Komo-Tec with their tuned cars and an old one from Sport Auto comparing an S with a GT4 which was by the way 10 seconds faster...(7:52 vs 7:43..)....... I'm sure the new Sport 380 and Cup one could be in the times of the 997 GT3s at least, and beat now the existing GT4..... it might look a little stupid for some to do that, but look at sports cars makers now they ALL do it...even Corvette, Nissan, come to the Nordschleife........so..... taking the 3-11 to the nordschleife and hockenheim was a great idea, but why taking the race version and not be too precise about which car it really was...and not do an official timing....... I think it's a little disappointing...and make people think that the cars are not so fast after all..... weight is not everything.....lot at the times of the GT-R...... at some stage I believe you have to stick by your product and not be afraid of the competition..... given also the fact that we could say Lotus might even be in a class of it's own....So I'm waiting for the Evera, Elise, Exige and 3-11 official time around the ring with whoever you want.....and same for Hockenheim, Le Mans and I leave the britons pick theirs......

[JayEmm]

I think perhaps the issue could be Lotus pursuing the same philosophy with all their cars. Every new car is lighter, harder, more stripped out AND more money. We aren't stupid. 

I think the 380 should be a more luxurious car, by Exige standards, with a "sport" model as the more aggressive and stripped out version, with the "cup" perhaps being an options pack - almost a conversion kit if you will. Track ready exhaust, baffled sump, cutoffs, etc...

Realistically the Exige survived fine with just the road and cup models IMHO. The Elise is maybe the trickier one as that is getting very expensive and whilst the Exige has serious performance, for the uninitiated an Elise is a very difficult sell.

[Swiss380Cup]

And most probably we'll have to face the reality at some stage that people buying bare cars with not even a carpet, for a lot of money, are a bunch of lunatic and a dying breed..... talk to normal people, everybody will compare it to the new M BMW of AMG Mercedes or Nismo Nissan....and than it will become difficult to argue, unless you show us some real proven performance.....and who tracks his / her car.... less than 1 % of the driving population ??????  Will you buy a 3-11 or a Radical SR3 SL ???? I definitely hesitate.....wouldn't it be for the smaller dealer network at least on this side of the world, I'd definitely go for the SR3 SL.... FOOD FOR A NIGHT FULL OF THOUGHTS if not nightmares.....

[NedaSay]

22 minutes ago, JayEmm said:

I think perhaps the issue could be Lotus pursuing the same philosophy with all their cars. Every new car is lighter, harder, more stripped out AND more money. We aren't stupid. 

I think the 380 should be a more luxurious car, by Exige standards, with a "sport" model as the more aggressive and stripped out version, with the "cup" perhaps being an options pack - almost a conversion kit if you will. Track ready exhaust, baffled sump, cutoffs, etc...

Realistically the Exige survived fine with just the road and cup models IMHO. The Elise is maybe the trickier one as that is getting very expensive and whilst the Exige has serious performance, for the uninitiated an Elise is a very difficult sell.

Well we'll have to wait at least 2,5 more years before we see the silhouette of the new Elise. In the meantime we are going to get a few more variants of every model except, realistically, the 3-Eleven. 

I agree with you whole heartedly, the Exige is getting more - too - extreme all the time, but the exige has always been the extreme one since its inception. With the Exige V6 model it changed a bit, DB tried to go for a more luxurious car, but it is based on the small platform so the amount of luxury you can put in it is fairly limited. Still I do think the Lotus range should allow for more distinction between the variants and I think it will happen at some point, just not right now.  Maybe the should kill the sport 350 and turn it into a Sprint 350 with more kit as standard. 

As for the 380 Cup, I do not think this is a conquest model, it is a very limited edition car for the few who are not afraid to shed the cash and who will compare it to their buddies GTR's, GT3's. Some here will go the Komo-Tec route because they already have a bonkers car and the upgrade maybe to mild and too pricey for their taste which is totally fair. Some are still hoping for a 410 Cup which will probably never come (because as JMG wants to get the car lighter not heavier) or will be final send of of the car in it's last year of production, I am afraid we are not there yet. Besides there's the obvious thing, JMG will not provide the top level Evora engine to the Exige for one good reason: the company will get higher margins from the Evora than the Exige.  

[Top cat]

You need to remember where Lotus are as a company. This rolling out of new variant every few months has been going on for years, they don't have any money to do anything else. You have got another 3 years before a new platform so get used to another variant every few months up to this point. The V6 has finished as an engineering development unless the squeeze in a charge cooler, so i would expect by 2020 to see full carbon clams and interior but as MR Bailey say's essentially the same car. They could however modernise/upgrade the interior without too much cost so god knows why we still have a crap dash and cheap switch gear. 

[J-P]

I really like this car - think it looks amazing and the spec is mouth-watering.  Having said that, I do think it's a lot to pay over a sport 350.  

I love the Lotus brand - always have but I can't afford a massive depreciation hit, so buying an Exige for £80k to £90k feels like a bit of a leap into the unknown, whereas the sport 350 seems like real value.  You could get the komotec 430 upgrade for what? £5k and race Ohlins for probably another £5k and you'd have an absolute belter of a track car for £70k-ish.  Or just keep it std if you want for £60k?  Personally I don't think there are enough track day fiends and enthusiasts with enough cash to warrant £80k spend on a car unless it has absolutely glacial depreciation.

 

if I needed to get out of this car in a year what would it cost me?  Quite a lot I'd imagine.

[DannyMul]

I would have bought one of these over my Sport 380 had I know about it last month, purely for its looks and 'limited' status.

And at risk of upsetting foke I would have optioned it with A/C, carpets and the CD player too....

[alias23]

Or spend money saved, on track tuition and learn to drive better in turn likely beating most 380 drivers with your old cheap V6S

[vd9]

Looked through the old topics introducing Sport 350 and Sport 380 - statements and sentiment are exactly the same (e.g. marginal changes, practically the same car, nothing new, Lotus is doomed).

Since then they've managed to have a first profitable year, the car is 6.3s faster around their home benchmark track (Exige V6S was 1.32.3 as I understand), is at least 20% better in power/weight terms, has all the fancy design elements one can stick on it (e.g. canards, louvred tailgate, exposed gearshift mechanism, motorsport wing, barges, lots of small carbon details), has race pack and upgraded brakes as standard. Base price in GBP is about 60% higher (I understand V6S list prices were from low £50k), GBP depreciated against most of the currencies by some 20%.

It does look like that company is going to be criticised heavily for any move (or lack of move), unless they release 900kg 500bhp perfectly convenient luxuriously finished dream car for £60k.

Wonderful car it is, no direct competitors observed, as many great things it is not perfect for any individual. And for each individual it has own imperfections.

PS to prevent spiky comments, I'm leaning towards Sport 350 as per earlier suggestion by Jonny. It's quiet enough to be used as I'd be happy to (I don't feel comfortable with buying rather expensive car, not having a chance to use it and hoping that it will be sorted out somehow) and will definitely be enough of the car for me to be challenged (coming from 350bhp 1,500kg 4WD).

[cbaileyuk]

However you dress this up, you can't escape that massive price hike..For very little...

How is this 20% better in power/weight terms? 

Isn't it 375 v 345, now capped rev range, just short of 1.1k kg and a great down force but quoted at 175mph.

Point me to the 20% better detail because I am seriously interested to read that.

Edited April 23, 2017 by cbaileyuk

[Swiss380Cup]

Yes same comment coming back at each new model launch......... Regarding the "Cup" 380, beside the fact that it's a 380 with all options and a few novelties.. it really lacks the CUP status for me, i.e. motorsport parts (baffled sump, triple-bypass radiator, steel break hoses, light flywheel, removable steering-wheel, limited slip differential, etc. etc. ).

My Cup would be stripped down to the bone as much as possible without compromising aesthetics, and with all the possible motorsport bells and whistles.... and than it would bear its name proudly... and we IMHO have less arguments....

Otherwise it's again a fully optioned SPORT 380 with a few improvements...

Take Sport 380 price list, add all the options and you'll come up with the Cup 380 price..... you can basically buy a basic 380, add the track pack a motorsport triple-bypass radiator, baffled sump, LSD and you'll have a car as performant....

 

[The Pits]

2 hours ago, vd9 said:

It does look like that company is going to be criticised heavily for any move (or lack of move), unless they release 900kg 500bhp perfectly convenient luxuriously finished dream car for £60k.

Bang on the money for me Victor. I remember exactly the same criticism when the V6 S was launched in 2012. £55k for an Exige?! 'It's just an S2 Exige with a Camry engine' and so on. Outrage at £62k for a V6 Cup in 2013.

Lotus cars may change but the criticism remains constant! And everyone is an automotive industry expert on business strategy for Lotus, not forgetting marketing expert too!

Yes the 380 Cup is expensive. I wish it were cheaper. I wish it were under £50k. I also wish there was no crime, disease or religious extremism.

I think some are in danger of missing the point of this car. Here's a reminder. Lotus made THIS!

[C8RKH]

11 minutes ago, The Pits said:

I wish it were cheaper. I wish it were under £50k.

 

No you don't. As then they'd be as common as muck and driven by complete and utter tw@ts who had no idea what they were doing or why. It would become the Audi S Line of super sports cars. And we'd all be looking at something else to get the smug, superior, self satisfaction of knowing we were driving in an exclusive club.

Let us not forget, that is what Lotus is. An exclusive driving club.  I do think it needs to go up market and I do think JMG is taking it there, startign with the prices! 

The next Exige I predict will have carbon loveliness and alcantara all over the place with a range starting with a 175mph top speed and 0-60 in 3.7s, going on to around 190-195mph, possibly just hitting 200mph and 2.9s with a price starting at £75k and going to £110k..  Even at those prices, with the right looks and kit and finishing material it will be half the price of the comparable McLaren, Fezza etc and be right on their coat tails or ahead on any track or road in the world.

Jonny, please stop posting those pictures. I am on my 3rd set of underwear this morning.

[vd9]

1 hour ago, cbaileyuk said:

However you dress this up, you can't escape that massive price hike..For very little...

How is this 20% better in power/weight terms? 

Isn't it 375 v 345, now capped rev range, just short of 1.1k kg and a great down force but quoted at 175mph.

Point me to the 20% better detail because I am seriously interested to read that.

1,180/345 vs 1,100/375, 293bhp/t vs 340bhp/t. Yes, my bad for not actually checking precise numbers, it is ~15% improvement. Does it change the game dramatically?

To talk about rpm cut being harmful we would need to see a power curve for the engine, which I have not seen yet. Generally speaking I do like the engine to happily rev all the way into 8k, but also realise this is much easier with turbo, than with a supercharger.

Edited April 23, 2017 by vd9

[The Pits]

Also 60% more downforce without any increase in drag.

And Andy I really do wish it were £50k! Bet you most would still think it's too expensive though, 'same old engine and chassis' and all the rest!