Lotus Exige Cup 380

[TBD]

13 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Unfortunately Nurburgring laptimes are not a reliable measure for track performance for many reasons. Neither is Sport Auto. Many Cayman GT4 owners will tell you that it needs a lot of set-up to get to handle well, so I don't subscribe to this idea that Porsche are masters of chassis tuning. You can adjust quite a lot on the Cayman GT4 and for a fast time you will need to. Who's to say the Sport Auto GT4 time at the Nurburgring wasn't done with a car with optimized geo and the Lotus wasn't still on stock settings? Everyone complained about the standard V6S settings and the understeer, many also talk of the transformation after new geo stetting, more camber and so on. It seems the Cayman GT4 is similar in this regard. Christian Gebhart's Nordschleife lap in the Exige was very brave and committed, but it was also pretty wild and ragged. Certainly the Cayman lap looks much more composed. But the Exige's gearbox looks awful and he's graunching gears. Many have criticized all Exige V6 gearboxes based on this video. I know that not all Exiges are like this but those looking to knock Lotus aren't interested in a second opinion. Now the whole internet believes the Exige V6 gearbox is 'terrible' when this is not the case in my experience. I have driven an Exige V6 with a terrible gearbox and that was a properly hammered Lotus Driving Academy car. Truly terrible gearbox! Most probably at the end of its life too. I wouldn't be able to buy one after that experience, fortunately I have also experienced how good they can be and mine still is 15,000 later. My point is yes, Lotus are respsonsible for the preparation of cars that they let the press drive. If they fail to prepare the cars well, people will draw conclusions based on that one car. As we all know, not many manufacturers play fair when it comes to press cars. Do we know this Sport Auto Exige was even provided by Lotus? We don't know the full story. Do we know the full spec of the Cayman? Is 7.53 a plausible lap time? It's not slow but perhaps a bit disappointing. It's certainly disappointing that it has led the whole internet to believe that the Cayman GT4 is faster everywhere, that there is something 'wrong' with the Exige, that Lotus are not making their claimed horsepower, that Porsche are the undisputed masters of chassis tuning, all of this mostly based on that Sport Auto lap. People find this stuff easy to believe because many want to believe it. Porsche, Porsche uber alles. However the Cayman GT4 is more slippery than the Exige V6S and has 30bhp more. That alone can account for most of the 10 sec difference in the laptime around the Nordschliefe. Just timing the two cars on the high speed run down the main straight the Porsche finds 2 seconds there.

I also hope that Sport Auto get hold of an Exige 380 Cup but I won't base my whole opinion of the car on the numbers they produce.

A lot of truth in that. Clearly preparation of the car is essential for good lap times and Lotus has done a miserable job prepping them. If they have done any job at all. So much different than Porsche or any other brand.

I specifically remember how upset Daniel from komotec was about the 311 fast lap, the car obviously lacking a proper setup despite its impressive time. In fact, I don't understand why they don't specifically ask Lotus am Ring (Komotec) to assist them in prepping cars for the Ring. 

[NW76]

Agree - its not that easy. I would prefer a 1:1 comp 360 / V6 Cup vs 380 Cup in Spa driven by a guy who is really fast and knows how to drive the Exige.

Gebhardt (the Sport Auto driver) actually gave the Exige V6 a pretty good review. In the end it even won against the GT4. Almost unthinkable, but it happend. This review actually brought Lotus back into my head and made me test drive one... 

[The Pits]

Totally agree @TBD, local knowledge around the Nordschleife is very valuable and worth a lot of time! For the last few press launches Lotus have prepped the car you drive on track differently to the one you drive on the road which makes sense. Their Hethel laptimes are set with the lightest possible spec cars for example. So it does look like the lightest possible Sport 380 is very nearly as fast as the Cup 380. I guess Cup owners can console themselves with knowing that no-one is ordering a Sport 380 without aircon, stereo, sound deadening and so on. But I'm also surprised the Cup 380 couldn't find more than 0.5 seconds around Hethel with wider tyres and more downforce. The very fast right hand corner at windsock is somewhere that proper downforce would be worth a lot of time. Easily 0.5 seconds there I would have thought. Still, funny how we're all disappointed with 0.5 seconds, for a race team that is time to celebrate! Nice to see they still have that mentality up at Hethel!

[Jokke Vlo]

I have no stereo Johny  

[Mark030358]

Not being a track guy, where does driver body weight come into the equation?

I'm 6' and maybe 210 pounds, yeah a bit overweight So I guess if I lose 14 pounds and thats a saving of £5k on Titanium exhaust option  

But seriously, where does driver weight come into this if you are a serious track demon?

cheers

Mark

[NW76]

Exactly there ... its a lot cheaper to go on a diet and loose 15 lbs than to shave it off your car ? 

[The Pits]

It makes a big difference in a kart, not so much with 375bhp. I doubt the difference between a 95kg man and an 80kg man of similar driving ability is even measurable. The heavier guy only needs to be a tiny bit better around one corner to get the time back. That's what I tell myself anyway!

Yes definitely better for both driver and car to lose 10kg than buy a titanium exhaust and keep eating donuts!

[Jokke Vlo]

A passenger at Spa (70-90kg) = 2 seconds

Empty or full fuel tank=1 sec

The influence is HIGH ! Even how the car drives 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Jokke Vlo

[NW76]

Jokke: I really like this ... I had a passenger and a full tank on my 2:51 ... if I follow your math - it could have been a 2:48 

Cool ... 

Seriously - I agree with Jokke: I can definitely feel a passenger even with the EX460... can I feel the difference between a full and empty tank ... not really anymore ... 

[The Pits]

The question was 'driver body weight' not passenger body weight. But yes fat friends need to get out for a fast lap!

[C8RKH]

59 minutes ago, Jokke Vlo said:

A passenger at Spa (70-90kg) = 2 seconds

Empty or full fuel tank=1 sec

The influence is HIGH ! Even how the car drives 

Wouldn't have thought you'd be going anywhere on an empty tank so would be last. Shucks smucks, what yhe hell do I know anyway. Where's the donuts. I'd rather buy a titanium exhaust..... 

Right now I'm investing in the driver. No. Not donuts you fool. A full day driver training course on Saturday. Can't wait...

 

[mbes2]

 380 Vs 2017 honda civic type r @ the ring ... how much shopping will fit in each.. 

[Jokke Vlo]

2 hours ago, The Pits said:

The question was 'driver body weight' not passenger body weight. But yes fat friends need to get out for a fast lap!

Ok  yes you feel it, only...... you have to calculate per 10kg to measure. But I am very sure that there is a significant difference between a driver of 70 vs 100kg.

Very sure. 

[TBD]

3 hours ago, NW76 said:

Exactly there ... its a lot cheaper to go on a diet and loose 15 lbs than to shave it off your car ? 

Wise words. After getting the EX460 I concluded that a low card diet would definitively be cheaper than getting more carbon parts. So far 10 Kg down 

Also makes getting in and out easier.

[C8RKH]

About 5 inches or 13cms around the waist is the main difference of 70kg v 100kg in driver weight.

Sorry guys if I am not taking this conversation too seriously but the marginal performance improvements you are talking about here are nothing to do with the car. Are they?  Lotus has done a huge job to shave grams off the 380 CUP and most purchasers will then very happily go on and spec a number of extras that will take the weight back up again.

It's all largely academical UNLESS you are actually comparing cars that are stock. Right out of the box. As they left the factory.  As soon as you start to tune the chassis, adjust the toe and the camber etc then you are having a huge influence on the performance of the car ON THE TRACK.

You can take 10 year old car and do wonders to it's track times just by optimising the tyres, the tyre pressures, the chassis tuning, the suspension and geometry, etc etc etc.  As soon as you touch any of this then the comparison is meaningless as the BASELINE is STOCK OUT OF THE BOX.

Unless you are a pro level driving god, the savings from losing a passenger will not matter anywhere as near as much as the comptence and experience and skill of the driver. I guess once you are the pinnacle in this respect, then ALL you have left to worry about is weight!

I feel the conversation is turning now into a bit of willy waving competition. I am sorry if I have miss-understood and this is not the case.  But until we get a stock 350 Sport, V6 CUP, 380 Sport and 380 CUP and a GT4, as they left the factory, and driven on the same track, by the same driver, under the same conditions then everything is pure speculation in terms of this is faster than that.

Can we not just say bravo to Lotus for continuing to develop the platform? (after all, isn't the Cayman GT4 still just essentially the same car it was when launched in 2005, itself based on the Boxster launched in 1996?)  I don't here many people from Porsche community slagging off the 12 year old core design of the Cayman (21 year old if you include the Boxster) that underpins the GT4? I don't hear many people from the Porsche community crying about the 30 year old basis for the 911 GT3 RS.

Lotus is not Porsche. lotus does a freakin' awesome job with its R&D spend on its full range, probably the same that Porsche consumes just on the R&D for the dashboard of one of its cars!

[Dani]

IMHO having or not a passenger in an Exige V6 DO makes a big difference. Even being an amateur driver. Weight is crucial. Not 10 or 25 kg, but 75kg is a lot of weight here.

And I think the GT4 has a lot more differences with a 12 years old caymam than a 380 with the Exige S V6 (345)

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Dani

[The Pits]

How about a 5 year old Cayman? That is how long since the Exige V6S. Imagine the Exige we'll have in 2025!

[C8RKH]

Exactly @The Pits

@Dani you're giving Lotus no credit and then defending Porsche in the same manner. WTF man. Be consistent.  The point I was making is around the basic design tenants and underlying platform architecture. It is not just about the engine and what lotus is doing it is doing with "exactly" the same engine core. you can hardly say that about the GT4.

I'm getting tired of the dissing of Lotus attempts on a bloody Lotus website. i'd expect this sort of blinkered love in on a Porsche site.

[Dani]

Sorry but I have not said nothing against Lotus. I have said in this thread that I find this CUP 380 amazing. But I think you were exagerating with that comparisson you did with a Porsche. Just trying to be fair.

My previous car was a Carrera S. And I own the only one (yes) Exige V6 sold in Spain. I think I am a solid Lotus supporter and not just with words. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Dani

[Mark030358]

1 hour ago, TBD said:

Wise words. After getting the EX460 I concluded that a low card diet would definitively be cheaper than getting more carbon parts. So far 10 Kg down 

Also makes getting in and out easier.

Brilliant... so you dont need the slippery CF sills either..

 

Mark

[The Pits]

I don't want to 'like' that there's only one Exige V6 in Spain  but I salute Dani. Without him there would be zero!

Looks like a Motorsport Green one too which counts double!

 

 

[Neal H]

6 hours ago, The Pits said:

I doubt the difference between a 95kg man and an 80kg man of similar driving ability is even measurable

So what you're saying is; people only spend thousands on the carbon option for the bling value rather than the weight saving

[Supercrosser]

3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

You can take 10 year old car and do wonders to it's track times just by optimising the tyres, the tyre pressures, the chassis tuning, the suspension and geometry, etc etc etc.  As

agree on that!

but all in all a lot of emotional talk here.

Any hard facts?

Differences of chassis of 350CUP vs. 380 vs. 380CUP....?

Camber in degrees...? 

i heard of +0.5° more camber on the 350 vs. previous V6... so better turn in bite... but what about the others...

Edited April 25, 2017 by Supercrosser

[The Pits]

Someone on here half-joked that Lotus should use the AC to cool the Exige's inlet air as a lighter weight option to avoid the weight of a chargecooler. I thought at the time what a good idea that was. It turns out that Dodge are doing just that with the new Dodge Demon.

Such a great idea for the Exige and finally puts that ac system that we are all obliged to order to good use. I hope Lotus are paying attention!

[French Frie]

I did  ... and ask to a tuner workshop ! But I was said that it was not enough to really cool the intake air, and they told me that it was easier and more efficient to inject another stuff (sorry, I forgot the name !), that really cool the mixture ... you have to add a small tank (5 to 10 litres) and tap an injector in the inlet manifold. They told me that after few laps on the Ring, the manifold was still a bit frozen !

it could be useful for lap time hunters ...