JG220

I didn’t say which side acted unlawfully. It is however true that only the Leave campaign (or elements of Leave - there were multiple organisations) have so far been found to have acted unlawfully. i think you’re probably right, there is moral question over the leaflets and so on from Remain. I actually think they not only objectionable but also unhelpful. Some of the rhetoric wasn’t helpful either, on both sides.

In that case you misunderstood. It was an advisory referendum, which both main parties decided they needed to respect. Respecting the decision to leave could be interpreted all the way from Brexit in name only all the way through to a hard, no deal exit. The protagonists in every option will say ‘well we’ve left’, thus fitting your defintion. Add in the issue of a land mass border which got ignored in the original debate and its unsurprising that no compromise in that spectrum can be found.

That's not correct. It was the electoral commission who identified illegal activity in the process. The only reason the referendum itself cannot be challenged is that it was advisory. It was then, as you say, 2017 manifesto to enact it. Your argument through these pages is that you knew what you were voting for in the referendum and now it needs to be enacted. That isn't what the manifesto offers, if that is the new line of argument you wish to take.

Quoting myself, but this is exactly what has happened. 3rd meaningful vote to occur next week. Let's see if the ERG lose their nerve. I still don't think she has the numbers though, as remain rebels are likely to move from voting for her deal this week to wondering if there isn't a 'better' outcome now on the cards.

I think we’re saving you from yourselves 😁

I’m still struggling with how they are mutually exclusive. The referendum was legal until one side broke the law. Then in my view it wasn’t. We gloss over it because it probably wouldn’t have made a difference. Still doesn’t change the fact in my view. The problem with the augments about the 2017 manifesto is two fold 1- the 2017 conservative manifesto says ‘deliver a smooth and orderly departure from the European Union and forge a deep and special partnership with our friends and allies across Europe’. That doesn’t sound much like a no deal Brexit to me. 2- we have a chance to change our government on a regular basis and the majority of decisions can be reversed in successive governments. Brexit isn’t one. Well not for a while anyway.

Well, if you read European papers you will see that we are. We were a laughingstock for offering the referendum, a laughingstock for voting leave and now one for not knowing what we want. I’d agree that you can blame the politicians for the majority of those three. The first!

We are already a laughingstock I dunno, doesn't it?

The leave campaign broke the law (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-broke-electoral-law-and-british-democracy-is-shaken - this is widely reported & not contentious, i chose a guardian link as it was the first, but you can get the same information from multiple sources) it was therefore an illegal referendum. The vast majority of the predictions suggest we will be worse off under a no deal Brexit. I've posted the links before in this thread, there is plenty of evidence that the leave campaign were campaigning on the assumption that there would be an agreement (a deal) between the UK and the EU in the event of a leave majority. You are right, we were never voting on the terms of the deal, which is exactly why we need to go back to a vote. The first referendum a (non binding) intent the second will be an implementation vote. And because all the options other than remain are shit, hopefully we'll come to our senses. In any event, given that we have followed the non-binding referendum's intent, we now need to follow the non-binding parliament's decision to take no-deal off the table for ever. Which i think leads only to May's deal (which is still shit) or another referendum, or both (with May's deal on the ballot). Brexiteer MPs looked more than upset tonight, serves them right, they were told that they were risking Brexit by not voting for May's deal. If i was May, i'd try for a third time before the 29th, i think that taking no deal off indefinitely as they have tonight, would mobilise brexiteers to vote for her deal. Whether that is enough or not, i'm not sure given that DUP aren't for turning, their issues are more fundamental with the backstop.

Because it was an illegal, non binding referendum? Because nobody voted to be significantly worse off? Because a deal was touted as what would happen in Brexit? I dunno, there are probably others. It is a monumental mess though, I agree with that. I don't know any remainers that have moved to leavers though, and the vast majority of the people (London, see) I know are of that ilk.

No deal gets rejected tomorrow Extension request gets voted on Thursday EU forces extension to the end of the year (and that the UK take part in the European elections?) In the interim, labour seek to get a customs union deal through the now empowered parliament, resulting in stalemate Forces a GE, which results in both parties putting a referendum in their manifestos Referendum rejects brexit because its a colossal waste of time and money.

Well Cox just killed the deal. so it’s now either hard brexit or no Brexit. I’m going to say to probability of the later is slightly ahead of the former. Probably 51.9% vs 48.1% joking aside we’re heading for an extension aren’t we (at about £1b a month) 80% certain?, a GE 60% certain and maybe another referendum, 50:50?

I had it weighed yesterday. 913kg with a full tank of fuel. I think thats pretty good. I think the HT is about 7 or 8, so it will be running at under 900Kg as the fuel runs down. unfortunately you have to add in 80kg of me...

I hadn’t actually realised it was an old post, it was in my unread. I’d have made the same comment whoever had posted it. I promise to make more effort to try to find the humour in future, genuinely.

I did indeed, the part number is A704B0045F. I'd rather forget the price...

Yep, I specced the memory seats. Absolutely essential. The S4 seats also have massage function and heating (and you can spec AC, if you really want )

Not very helpful if the A4 avant doesn't get a yes, but I absolutely love my S4 avant. The only thing I can think to replace it with is an RS4 Avant.

erm, didn't take a single one

How very grown up.

Finally, we return to adult, respectful and less extreme views. 👍 I don’t believe in conspiracy. May never wanted the free vote, she fought it and fought it but was legally required to give it in the end. Had she avoided it, the deal would have been signed shortly after the Chequers meeting in July last year. The impass is a lack of any form of agreement in parliament. Whether or not that is a democratic issue depends upon you point of view, I happen to think it is an issue. On the other hand my perspective is that given that no plan existed at the time of the referendum then having an implementation referendum isn’t a bad solution (as it restores that democratic problem - by virtue of being democratic). The argument that a second vote is undemocratic is rather like trying to argue against the definition of democracy. In any case, we’ll reintegrate the EU within the next 20 years (without the perks). The younger generations will see to that. And indeed with 2m more young voters and 2m fewer older ones, a new referendum now (if there was one - which is far from clear) could see to that sooner. But that is democracy.

Those are two completely different issues which I struggle to understand how you are conflating. You say we are losing WW3, a conflict between us and Germany in response to a largely discredited far right and clearly BS website. Your response to me calling you out on it, is your umbrage at our INTERNAL democratic process. The only reason I continue to post and interact with you is that as Scott says, I want to show our international participants to this board that we don’t all share your views.

Yep, it’s a free country, but I thought on here at least we had a modicum of respect. Suggesting that we are at war with Europe is beyond the pale. In any case, aren’t you rather contradicting yourself if you defend Barry’s free speech and follow by a call for me to be silenced?

Politicalite is a far-right website and not a very competent one at that https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/markdistefano/euronews-right-wing-website-videos

I think you can usefully discredit any reality of that article just by counting the number of exclamation marks. 🙄

Good turn out 👍