She Runs! Not Well :-( Help!

[Vulcan Grey]

For some reason I always thought the primary injectors were 270, interesting. Well if that is not the problem then I will have to investigate further. What else would be causing the car to run so rich? When you run RC injectors do you need to add resistors or are these injectors "plug and play"?

The noise seems to be coming from around the TPS and crankcase vent. The vacuum lines I was refering to are the ones surronding the crankcase vent valve.

Stock SE primaries are 370cc/min or 36lb/hr LOW impedance

SE Secondaries are usually 190cc/min or 18lb/hr and HIGH impedance.

Personally I use BOSCH injectors. I \'m keeping my engine pretty stock, but I did have to replace my injectors due to severe clogging. I am running a S4s Memcal (from Sanj) and 200cc/min Secondaries.

I agree with Marcus above, too large on the secondaries, and you will be choking on fuel.

Primaries are better metered and make more sense to increase in size.

[Drfatz]

Stock SE primaries are 370cc/min or 36lb/hr LOW impedance

SE Secondaries are usually 190cc/min or 18lb/hr and HIGH impedance.

Personally I use BOSCH injectors. I \'m keeping my engine pretty stock, but I did have to replace my injectors due to severe clogging. I am running a S4s Memcal (from Sanj) and 200cc/min Secondaries.

I agree with Marcus above, too large on the secondaries, and you will be choking on fuel.

Primaries are better metered and make more sense to increase in size.

I may adjust the size of the secondary injectors at some point, but those are the sizes John at WC recommended for my setup. However, right now the car is choking on fuel at idle! In fact she is so rich that after about 15 minutes of idle running the cat was red hot! I am going to run her for only a short time and take some data with freescan and post it up here.

I need to get this sorted ASAP for she goes into the bodyshop next week

-Graham

[Drfatz]

Alright I ran her again and basically no change. She runs very poorly at idle and if you increase throttle at all and back off she spits and pops all over the place. It seems to me like she is running much to rich still, but I am not sure what the problem is. I have attached a freescan log. I started taking information as soon as I started the car. I then let it idle for a few minutes (then freescan crashed). not once during this whole exercise did I touch the throttle. I am beginning to wonder...is the timing off? I set the timing myself to the 'T' and am pretty certain the timing is right on the money.

Note: The attached file is a text file, just dump it into excel and it should work

-Graham

Cold_Start_warm_up.txt

[Artie]

Alright I ran her again and basically no change. She runs very poorly at idle and if you increase throttle at all and back off she spits and pops all over the place. It seems to me like she is running much to rich still, but I am not sure what the problem is. I have attached a freescan log. I started taking information as soon as I started the car. I then let it idle for a few minutes (then freescan crashed). not once during this whole exercise did I touch the throttle. I am beginning to wonder...is the timing off? I set the timing myself to the 'T' and am pretty certain the timing is right on the money.

Note: The attached file is a text file, just dump it into excel and it should work

-Graham

Graham,

Are you referring to the cam timing? The timing dot's on the cam gears. If so this has little to do with spark timing which is set internally by the ECM and chip. I didn't get a good gander at the freescan file, but sometimes new cats will glow when "lit off" the first few times. How about disconnecting the secondary injectors or installing the set I sent you way back. Perhaps the ones you have are low impedence and are leaking or possibly injecting fuel when they should not be(just a thought). To get the CEL to stay off, maybe just hook up the connectors to the other set of secondary injectors to complete the circuit and see if this is your problem.

Artie

Edited June 30, 2007 by Artie

[Drfatz]

Graham,

Are you referring to the cam timing? The timing dot's on the cam gears. If so this has little to do with spark timing which is set internally by the ECM and chip. I didn't get a good gander at the freescan file, but sometimes new cats will glow when "lit off" the first few times. How about disconnecting the secondary injectors or installing the set I sent you way back. Perhaps the ones you have are low impedence and are leaking or possibly injecting fuel when they should not be(just a thought). To get the CEL to stay off, maybe just hook up the connectors to the other set of secondary injectors to complete the circuit and see if this is your problem.

Artie

Art, thanks for the advice. I actually forgot to mention that I unplugged the secondary injectors and that didn't change anything. Also, I got an error #35 from freescan it said its an idle control error. I am thinking about just getting a new O2 sensor as well as a new MAP sensor. Also, I think tomorrow night I will install my stock injectors and see what happens.

Still can't figure out what the "pop" sound is. Its rather concerning. It almost sounds like its coming from inside the intake manifold. I think I will take a video with sound of the car running and post it online so people can see what I am talking about.

-Graham

[Artie]

Sounds like a good idea. Also, are you getting any Idle Air control counts? I couldn't tell on your freescan log.

Artie

[98GT3]

Still can't figure out what the "pop" sound is. Its rather concerning. It almost sounds like its coming from inside the intake manifold. I think I will take a video with sound of the car running and post it online so people can see what I am talking about.

-Graham

I still think you have a major timing issue, I think the sound might be fuel igniting in the inlet, did you fit a new cam belt?

Phil

98GT3

[Drfatz]

I still think you have a major timing issue, I think the sound might be fuel igniting in the inlet, did you fit a new cam belt?

Phil

98GT3

I did fit a new cam belt, but the timing was set very precisely. Although I certainly wouldn't rule out bad timing. If the timing were "way off" wouldn't the car not even run and or have a piston/valve collision? When I set the timing I lined up all of the points on the pulleys to the absolute best it could be. I guess if the timing were out it would be by about one belt tooth, it certainly can't be more then that.

-Graham

Sounds like a good idea. Also, are you getting any Idle Air control counts? I couldn't tell on your freescan log.

Artie

My TPS voltage is constant 0.92 and the "TPS" reads 0 the whole time. Also the RPM goes all over the place and I got an idle control error. I don't think the check engine light came on, but if I had let it run a little longer it would have lit up, but freescan crashed.

-Graham

[98GT3]

I did fit a new cam belt, but the timing was set very precisely. Although I certainly wouldn't rule out bad timing. If the timing were "way off" wouldn't the car not even run and or have a piston/valve collision? When I set the timing I lined up all of the points on the pulleys to the absolute best it could be. I guess if the timing were out it would be by about one belt tooth, it certainly can't be more then that.

-Graham

I have seen engines run (badly!) with the timing 180 degrees out, remember that the crankshaft does two revs for every one of the camshaft, so it is possible to have all the marks exactly aligned and the timing wrong i.e. trying to fire on the wrong stroke. The valves won't crash as they are still moving the same in relation to the pistons, just on the wrong stroke. I'm not saying it is this, but it might be worth a check.

Phil

98GT3

[Artie]

I have seen engines run (badly!) with the timing 180 degrees out, remember that the crankshaft does two revs for every one of the camshaft, so it is possible to have all the marks exactly aligned and the timing wrong i.e. trying to fire on the wrong stroke. The valves won't crash as they are still moving the same in relation to the pistons, just on the wrong stroke. I'm not saying it is this, but it might be worth a check.

Phil

98GT3

Good point Phil, I never thought of getting the timing 180 degrees out. The only marks that are important are the crank timing mark, and the two dots on the cams. On Graham's car, these should be green as I believe he has 2 green dot cam gears. Graham, did you put new cams in the car?

Artie

[rydning]

Can also be that the air line to the MAP sensor is off.

So it reads 1bar (ambient pressure) Should read 0,5 bar or so at idle.(I`m not sure I dont use the frescan)

I your Freescan works is should read constant pressure when aplying trottle.

45psi/3bar fuel pressure should be at idle with the signal line off.Or 2,4-2,7 bar with the signal line on.

Edited July 1, 2007 by rydning

[Dermot]

watching Diana concert will look at your logfile later

[rydning]

Marcus,

The internals and head of the engine are stock. I have installed a few mods:

1) RC Injectors 270 Primary and 370 Secondary

2) Garrett GT3071 Turbo

3) An -6 fuel lines

4) Walbro pump

5) Aeromotive pressure regulator set 45 psi at idle

6) Lotus S4s MEMCAL

7) 3" turbo back exhaust without exhaust valve

This looks good, you will get a incredible fast Esprit when this other things is sorted out.

And your turbo choise is gona be perfect for up to 400 continius bhp.With early boost and low backpressure.

In my friends MR2 turbo we have walbro tank pump and this pump limit the power to about 380bhp at AF 12.0

Have you done any mods to the headgasked.

[Drfatz]

Cheers guys! I believe Phil may be correct. I do indeed have Green dot pulleys and the timing was set using all three pulleys (crank and both cams) but it is possible that its 180 degrees out. Although I certainly thought about it being 180 out (has happened to me before) I will absolutely check. It is begining to sound more and more like the "pop" sound I keep hearing is partial ignition in the intake!

Any suggestions on how I might check for 180 out of phase timing with everything in the car and buttoned up?

As for the headgasket, I installed the latest updated Lotus gasket. If she blows I will look into further upgrades. John at WC said it should hold up and I guess if anything should fail mine as well be the headgasket.

-Graham

[Artie]

I would think you'd have to have pull the cam covers and check the valve openings compared to the piston travel. You can use a long pencil in the number 1 cylinder to see it's travel upward. Also, the headgasket should be fine, I understand they are good up to 1.6bar of boost(not that you'd run that much). Exactly my position too! I'd rather the head gasket blow vs the bottom end! No holes thank you!

Artie

[Drfatz]

I would think you'd have to have pull the cam covers and check the valve openings compared to the piston travel. You can use a long pencil in the number 1 cylinder to see it's travel upward. Also, the headgasket should be fine, I understand they are good up to 1.6bar of boost(not that you'd run that much). Exactly my position too! I'd rather the head gasket blow vs the bottom end! No holes thank you!

Artie

Hmmm...when I set the timing the engine was out of the car and the flywheel was off. What I did was set the dots in order and lined up the crank pulley while checking that the #1 cylinder was at TDC. I will check tomorrow night and hopefully find that its 180 out because I am starting to really wonder what else it could be!

-Graham

[Vulcan Grey]

Hmmm...when I set the timing the engine was out of the car and the flywheel was off. What I did was set the dots in order and lined up the crank pulley while checking that the #1 cylinder was at TDC. I will check tomorrow night and hopefully find that its 180 out because I am starting to really wonder what else it could be!

-Graham

From the front of the engine the green dots should right next to eachother, and the "IN" should be on the Intake cam, and the "EX" should be on the exhaust cam... When viewed from the rear of the engine (how you see it when the engine is in the car) the "EX" should be visible next to the green dot on the INTAKE pulley, and the "IN" should be next to the green dot on the EXHAUST pulley! So it should appear backwards from the back of the engine!

Similar to this

Edited July 2, 2007 by Vulcan Grey

[98GT3]

Just looked at your log Graham - did you work the throttle? if so it looks like the throttle posistion sensor is not working or not connected.

Phil

98GT3

[sanj]

Cheers guys! I believe Phil may be correct. I do indeed have Green dot pulleys and the timing was set using all three pulleys (crank and both cams) but it is possible that its 180 degrees out. Although I certainly thought about it being 180 out (has happened to me before) I will absolutely check. It is begining to sound more and more like the "pop" sound I keep hearing is partial ignition in the intake!

Any suggestions on how I might check for 180 out of phase timing with everything in the car and buttoned up?

As for the headgasket, I installed the latest updated Lotus gasket. If she blows I will look into further upgrades. John at WC said it should hold up and I guess if anything should fail mine as well be the headgasket.

-Graham

It's not actually possible to be 180 degrees out on this engine, as it uses a waste spark method of ignition.

Check your fuel pressure regulator. Pull off the little vaccum hose that goes into the top of it and start the car. If fuel comes out, you have found the problem.

[Drfatz]

It's not actually possible to be 180 degrees out on this engine, as it uses a waste spark method of ignition.

Check your fuel pressure regulator. Pull off the little vaccum hose that goes into the top of it and start the car. If fuel comes out, you have found the problem.

Interesting thought. Tried that one actually when I was setting the pressure on the regulator I had removed the line (per instruction from John at WC) and nothing came out.

Good to know the timing can't be 180 out, when I setup the timing it looked just like the picture Travis posted (I had the engine out of the car).

As for the TPS I never touched the throttle at all during the free scan log. I just let the car idle by itself and recorded the data.

As far as the fuel pressure regulator goes, some one told me that the regulator should go BEFORE the fuel rail, mine is setup the way the stock regulator was and is connected to the back of the fuel rail (as per the instructions that came with the regulator)...is this wrong?

-Graham

[Dermot]

Graham,

I had a look at your log file. The first thing you have to get right is the idle. It is all wrong. I think that is caused by a misadjusted TPS or the TPS is bust. The voltage at zero throttle openning must be between 0.45-0.65 V yours is showing over 0.9 V. You can loosen the TPS and see if you can adjust it to that region with Freescan running.

The engine load is showing about 13 when it should be between 5-7 at idle.

You could have a number of other issues (ie. MAP, IAC, vacuum leaks) but we need to stabilise the idle first.

Dermot

[Drfatz]

Graham,

I had a look at your log file. The first thing you have to get right is the idle. It is all wrong. I think that is caused by a misadjusted TPS or the TPS is bust. The voltage at zero throttle openning must be between 0.45-0.65 V yours is showing over 0.9 V. You can loosen the TPS and see if you can adjust it to that region with Freescan running.

The engine load is showing about 13 when it should be between 5-7 at idle.

You could have a number of other issues (ie. MAP, IAC, vacuum leaks) but we need to stabilise the idle first.

Dermot

Thanks Dermot, I noticed the engine load was rather high. I think this may be the A/C compressor running when it shouldn't be but I can't confirm that yet. Tonight I will try and adjust the TPS. If I just disconnect the wires going to the A/C compressor it should be off? Perhaps it may have a stuck clutch. A/C is the last of my worries at this point.

-Graham

[rydning]

Thanks Dermot, I noticed the engine load was rather high. I think this may be the A/C compressor running when it shouldn't be but I can't confirm that yet. Tonight I will try and adjust the TPS. If I just disconnect the wires going to the A/C compressor it should be off? Perhaps it may have a stuck clutch. A/C is the last of my worries at this point.

-Graham

I think its a vakum leak one or several places.So the Map sence 100% load.

It might be that the plastic lines are broken after all the work you have done to your engine.(happend to me)

Check all them before you beginn to go more advanced.

Do you have the manual/partlist? its easy to find where they go if you have.

[Drfatz]

I think its a vakum leak one or several places.So the Map sence 100% load.

It might be that the plastic lines are broken after all the work you have done to your engine.(happend to me)

Check all them before you beginn to go more advanced.

Do you have the manual/partlist? its easy to find where they go if you have.

The only reason I have been pushing the vacuum problem aside is because I replaced all of the vacuum lines with brand new high grade silicon line. Though tonight I will go through them again just to be sure.

-G

[Drfatz]

The only reason I have been pushing the vacuum problem aside is because I replaced all of the vacuum lines with brand new high grade silicon line. Though tonight I will go through them again just to be sure.

-G

Checked the vacuum lines and just to be 100% sure I replaced all plastic lines with silicon. Also I tried to adjust my TPS to read 0.45-0.65V with the throttle closed and I couldn't get it below 0.80. Either way the car ran just as poorly as it had before. I guess that means I need a new TPS?

I also ran the car for a bit and recorded another freescan log and this time it recorded for awhile so I have more data. I know the TPS is still wrong, but I shouldn't have any vacuum leaks.

-Graham

Cold_Start_warm_up_always_idle2.txt