Brexit

[theelanman]

Quote

the UK actually pays just under £250 million a week

that's nearly as much as a whole football team get paid..........

Andy

not heard or found the one about the fog light to be true in my case.....

I have a couple of old cars (60's) and they don't have fogs......and have never been quizzed on them or failed on them

the recommendations come from the FIVA the French version of our Historic Car Clubs.......they don't really do cars as we do and they want to keep the bangers off the road....fair enough but that just needs applying in France....not the UK or the rest of the EU

cheers

G

[JayEmm]

The French have just gone very anti-driver and anti-car recently, but I can understand it. They have the same number of drivers as we do, but many more roads and much better roads - but their fatality rate was 4x the UK's. Hence the ludicrous clamp down and million hidden speed cameras everywhere now. The days of blasting from toll booth to toll booth are over.

[Andyww]

32 minutes ago, theelanman said:

 

not heard or found the one about the fog light to be true in my case.....

I have a couple of old cars (60's) and they don't have fogs......and have never been quizzed on them or failed on them

 

G

The fog light thing is definitely true as Ferrari 308 owners are having to find creative ways to add fog lights without drilling holes. It wont affect historics (60s) cars though. Thats my point. 80's cars are in the firing line.

[theelanman]

ah ok Andy...got you....80's cars.......

 

in other News

the Swiss have pulled out of their proposed entry to the EU

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3473932/Now-Swiss-withdraw-bid-join-EU-Nation-s-parliament-retracts-24-year-old-bid-member-amid-deepening-row-migration.html

[Andyww]

34 minutes ago, JayEmm said:

Clearly I'm in a minority here but I'll be voting to stay in. Main thing, I don't believe any politician, at all, ever.

I enjoy the free transit I have around Europe, and the ability to work. It does affect me and suddenly having to get a VISA to work in certain places would hurt me financially. I also do a lot of trade with Europe and having to not pay VAT helps me a lot.

Also I don't think everything the EU does is the work of Brussels wanting to be a pain in the arse. For example, mobile phone fees are now going to be the same to use in Europe as they are at home. Anyone remember when it was an extortionate amount to send a text just because you were in spain? I do.

Transit around Europe will not change, why would it? We already have to show passports.

Mobile fees are set by the operators, are they going to all increase them again? No, because they would fall foul of anti-competition rules. Who do you think pays for the reduction in charges? The customers of course, in other areas and on general UK calls.

An end user does have to pay VAT on products shipped between EU countries. Our business has to charge 20% on EU exports unless the customer is VAT-registered which puts us at a disadvantage compared to non-EU suppliers although there are no import duties.

[JayEmm]

I am VAT registered, so I probably have a different take on things. I much prefer the EU way of doing things, rather than when I get stuff from the USA - have to pay tax - and then get it back three months later. It seems non-sensical to me and in the past doing so would have made some large business purchasing decisions impossible.

Mobile fees are set by the operators, but unless I'm mistaken it is an EU law which has told them to regulate their fees.

Frankly I get much more wound up about big businesses (eg. Starbucks) wriggling out of their tax bill than anything EU-related.

[franjipane]

So far in discussing this i've found people generally fit into 3 groups -

1. People who want to stay in, don't really have any good factual reasons, mostly seem to mention anecdotes or press spin, but cannot be swayed the other way.

2. People who want to leave, don't really have any good factual reasons, mostly seem to mention anecdotes or press spin, but cannot be swayed the other way.

3. People who don't care.

 

I think that's because it's almost impossible to predict what will happen if we leave.

[Andyww]

27 minutes ago, JayEmm said:

 

Frankly I get much more wound up about big businesses (eg. Starbucks) wriggling out of their tax bill than anything EU-related.

How is that not EU-related? It is totally EU related. The EU allows corporations to pay tax in the country of lowest tax rates, usually Luxembourg and it also condones the "Dutch Sandwich" tax dodge which is specifically used by Starbucks. The corrupt president (or whatever he is called) of the EU even arranged some of these fixes when he was PM of Luxembourg!! 

I am also VAT related, which makes it more of a pain than ever. We have to check the VAT status of every customer in the EU and charge VAT if they are not VAT-registered. If they are, we have to tell the EU, via EC Sales List, details of every transaction. As for exporting downloadable products, forget about it, the VAT rules are simply too complex.  

On the subject of VAT here is another gem which not many people appreciate. If you buy a track on iTunes or any Apple software product online, you are paying VAT at the Irish rate, which is higher than the UK rate, to Ireland. The UK gets none of it at all.

On the phone issue, this was blatant market interference and is a bribe timed perfectly for our referendum. It saves us nothing overall.

[franjipane]

6 minutes ago, Andyww said:

 

On the phone issue, this was blatant market interference and is a bribe timed perfectly for our referendum. It saves us nothing overall.

Pretty sure the referendum wasn't last June....

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/27/europe-abolishes-mobile-phone-roaming-charges

"The vote sees the deal reached between European authorities in June to scrap increased costs for calls, text and data while roaming with the EU, passed into law."

And the topic was fought for 10 years.

[Andyww]

1 minute ago, franjipane said:

Pretty sure the referendum wasn't last June....

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/oct/27/europe-abolishes-mobile-phone-roaming-charges

"The vote sees the deal reached between European authorities in June to scrap increased costs for calls, text and data while roaming with the EU, passed into law."

And the topic was fought for 10 years.

Comes into force June 2017. Timed because Cameron stated the referendum would be before end 2017 so they expected it around that time, although he decided to have it earlier before the EU gets worse.

[franjipane]

Where's your source for that Andy?  I'd like to read it.

[JayEmm]

As much as I empathise with money that should be owed us going elsewhere, I somehow just cannot see us leaving the EU meaning every single company working in Britain is going to suddenly pay their due.

[Andyww]

7 minutes ago, franjipane said:

Where's your source for that Andy?  I'd like to read it.

Umm, you posted a link to the source!

[franjipane]

The link i posted doesn't mention Cameron, nor timing the change to the law having anything to do with the EU referendum. 

[Andyww]

14 minutes ago, franjipane said:

The link i posted doesn't mention Cameron, nor timing the change to the law having anything to do with the EU referendum. 

No but it states the date.

Thats the thing about the EU, you have to have some nous and realize exactly whats going on rather than just look on the surface. There is no way they are going to admit the reason for the timing.

Just occasionally the mask slips, such as when Barroso stated:

"We are a very special construction unique in the history of mankind," said Mr Barroso. "Sometimes I like to compare the EU as a creation to the organisation of empire. We have the dimension of empire." 

[franjipane]

I'm with o2 and they lowered their roaming charges in the EU back in 2012, and I'm looking forward to them being lowered again in April.  My non-roaming charges haven't risen so there's not been a downside

[Kimbers]

Everyone is totally entitled to their opinion and I agree that Stay in seems a minority here. I also understand James's point in regards to it being a pain having to do his job in and around Europe. I'm still definately an out.

At least James makes his own mind up and has reasoned it through for him, but BMW telling their employees that all their jobs could be lost if they vote out and the French this afternoon saying THEY will relocate the migrants to the UK if we vote out just goes to prove how desperate they are not to lose the UK.

This also proves to me that they need us more than we need them. The recent scare tactics used by the "in" brigade have been outrageous and totally rediculous, for example:

1. If we come out it will make us less safe....really? You mean the European Govts aren't going to be asking for help and information sharing on Terrorism? Or that our borders will be somehow unsafe because we leave, when actually it will give us our right back to close our borders and send people back to the country they should have claimed asylum in originally! 

2. Businesses and jobs are at risk. Absolute bullcrap. No one is going to deny a free trade agreement and there is already a precedent in EU law because of the likes of Switzerland, Norway etc. The scare tactics they are using goes just to show how important trade with the UK is!

3. I severely hope that people see BMW/s blackmail exactly for what it is! Blackmail by the EU and an organisation that gets millions a year from the EU to do business. Honda have stated that it is a matter for the British people and it will not say anything, but pointed out that the majority of the Honda cars made in the UK are either sold here or go to the USA. Nissan and Toyota have stated that despite their own person preference to stay in the UK, it is for the British people to decide and both companies stated that current investments and production will not be effected either way.

Lastly, 200 Companies released a letter saying they want to be out of the EU and how damaging it was to businesses of ll sizes. Tell me, did anyone see it as front page news on the likes of the BBC and ITV like the letter saying stay in? Nope, thought not. 

[Andyww]

Strangely on the BBC lunchtime news they stated BMW made that statement in connection with their Rolls-Royce jobs. Then they went on to show some people in overalls marked with VW badges, who of course own R-R cars. I think they are making this stuff up as they go along. The BBC is so pro staying in its untrue.

[mdavies]

BMW and some French politician in the news this morning.  I understand that one likes to sell cars, and the other, wine.  Both have said too much for me. Plenty of alternatives.  Disgraceful interference.

[Barrykearley]

Frankly the Germans can stuff their cars and sausages.

the French can also shove their cars, cheese and wine.

i will stick to my lotus and my Herefordshire cider......

[C8RKH]

8 hours ago, JayEmm said:

Clearly I'm in a minority here but I'll be voting to stay in. Main thing, I don't believe any politician, at all, ever.

I enjoy the free transit I have around Europe, and the ability to work. It does affect me and suddenly having to get a VISA to work in certain places would hurt me financially. I also do a lot of trade with Europe and having to not pay VAT helps me a lot.

Also I don't think everything the EU does is the work of Brussels wanting to be a pain in the arse. For example, mobile phone fees are now going to be the same to use in Europe as they are at home. Anyone remember when it was an extortionate amount to send a text just because you were in spain? I do.

Well it does not seem to hamper the Swiss or the Norwegians who have no problem working here and where UK can go and live and work there... Don't see what all the fuss is about, nor the benefit of staying right now.

[pete]

make the tunnel one way, out only, in by boat only and put customs on the boat so no one illegal can actually touch British soil,straight back on the boat. Also time to search any cars or lorries

[C8RKH]

8 hours ago, Buddsy said:

It seem the "In" campaihners have gone mental on scare tactics today. Oh if we leave the EU it will be the end of the world

• A German owned car company trying to scare its employees in to voting the way they want! None of their freekin business if you ask me!
• France not going to check people on their borders? Fine we can just send them straight back to you! To enter Aus you need a valid return ticket and I cant see why we cant do that?

Truth is things will change if we stay in or if we leave. I just think we are already different form main land Europe. Differences is what makes us strong.

 

Buddsy

It's simple, we put the border on the boat - when the guy comes on the boat at Calais or wherever his status is checked - no passport and no visa, he gets thrown off the boat back on to the dock. Not our problem.

At the train station we have a border check. No passport or Visa, no get off the train and you go back with it to France. Not our problem.

I don't really see how hard it is / will be. We can also report the French to the Euro court of human rights for not properly processing the asylum seekers or giving them asylum. Not that the French ever take much notice of the rules anyway.

[Barrykearley]

Just control the ports......

in an airport - until you have cleared customs you have not officially entered. Like in oz - you don't clear - whoosh - back you go.....NEXT. Just do the same for the Chunnel and the seaports.

and we can employ loads of border guards to do this with the money we are saving - happy days

[C8RKH]

8 hours ago, franjipane said:

So far in discussing this i've found people generally fit into 3 groups -

1. People who want to stay in, don't really have any good factual reasons, mostly seem to mention anecdotes or press spin, but cannot be swayed the other way.

2. People who want to leave, don't really have any good factual reasons, mostly seem to mention anecdotes or press spin, but cannot be swayed the other way.

3. People who don't care.

 

I think that's because it's almost impossible to predict what will happen if we leave.

Steve,

4. Andy who has given this a lot of thought and has based his decision on facts:

a). Does not want to be a part of a Federal State that is the eventual outcome of an organisation that has at its heart the desire to foster and implement closer political union and a single central main legislature with satellite sub legislatures (EU Govt. with national Govts. with devolved powers).

b). Believes that the strength in the UK economy and recovery from recession is a direct result of "opting out" of key EU principles including the Working Time Directive that makes many of the UK's professional workers strong candidates for overseas (non EU) companies who are looking to set up subsidiaries and trade within the European Region (have you ever tried to sack un productive and lazy workers in France, Germany, etc....  it's nigh on impossible or excruciatingly expensive - fact from experience).

c). Does not believe there will be a direct impact on trade between the UK and the Eurozone countries as

(1) we are already outside of the Eurozone

(2) We have a significant current market for EU goods that will not just be "swallowed up" by other non EU markets - in other words, some EU countries will be hurt if their current trading levels with the UK are reduced. Can you imagine the further impact on Spain, Portugal, France and Greece by UK Tourism disappearing - a trade war on goods like Wine, Cheese, Cars, etc? Both sides have too much to lose which leads me to believe a compromise on a Trade Agreement will be reached.

To make this point look at official stats (not political party stats) for Dec 2015 (the latest fully confirmed stats) we see that 38% of all of our exports where to the EU, but 55% of all imports where from the EU. As the UK has a negative balance of payments this means we import more than we export, so, you can see by these simple FACTS that EU significantly benefits from an advantageous trading relationship with the UK. Do they want to give that up? Can they afford to?

In more detail, based on FACTS, in Dec 2015 we exported goods and services to Germany with a value of £2.1bn - IN ONE MONTH, yet we imported goods and services to the value of £4.4bn - so Germany sells double to us what it buys from us.  The US, we exported £3.3bn and imported £2.6bn, China we exported £1.5bn and imported £2.8bn and the Netherlands we exported £1.3bn and imported £2.5bn - that's an awful lot of Heineken and Edam!!!  So based on the FACTS, we can see and deduce that the UK is a very attractive market to deal with, with high values and high levels of net imports to the UK.  Are the EU really going to walk away from that when Spain, France, Portugal, Italy, Greece and others are on their knees and they will already have lost the UK block payment to the EU of a net £6-7bn a year (after rebates)?

d). See's an opportunity in the devaluation of the pound as a result of Brexit for UK exporters to increase market share in a more favourable position.  The Euro has weakened Britain's ability to export of manufactured goods. The Eurozone’s largest manufacturers have had their competitiveness boosted by the economic weakness of the southern states (italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece for instance) – which has allowed those Countries with large, well invested and established manufacturing bases (the Germans especially) to enjoy an export boom backed by a currency that cannot rise due to it’s weakest members. It also has had a significant effect on our balance of payments as we have shifted our purchases to "cheaper" Northern European goods from home grown goods.

On trade alone, I see advantages. We have a good workforce. We have an affordable and flexible workforce. And we have easier (for employers) employment laws than most of the well developed Northern European states. This makes us an attractive position to be in. Also, outside of the EU, we could become more of a financial services powerhouse, stripped of EU oversight, and able to operate schemes to take "tax business of convenience" away from the Dutch and Luxemburgers!

I could go on with other examples but enough (e.g. no more European Court of Human Rights to interfere with our own courts - I don't think we have oppressive laws in the UK as it is, why do we need more oversight from unelected judges hundreds of miles away in a different country).

The biggest issue is we are potentially leaping into the unknown. Nothing is certain and so this leads to fear of the unknown. However, I have decided that what might be lurking in the dark and damp sewer of Brexit, is possibly no worse, or maybe even less scary, than what is lurking in the increasingly corrupt and power hungry corridors of Brussels and the Hague.  We each need to do our research and vote for what we believe is best for ourselves. There is no right or wrong answer in this type of referendum, only an answer of general consensus.