Range Update

[FastLaneJB]

Yes I imagine it won't quite match a 800BHP RWD ICE in terms of traction issues but might not quite be the gap you'd expect either for I think a couple of reasons. EV's can generate all their power and torque straight away, an ICE unless you are keeping it in the power band is can often be making quite a bit less. I seem to remember my M760Li at around 600hp would show on it's power dial it was making around 300hp at low rpm's.

The other reason more Eletre specific and especially on the R but it's got no rear differential, only brakes to control it when a wheel starts slipping. I think this is why when you see people launching the R in YouTube videos, the rear end can start to fishtail quite a bit as it's maybe not catching / controlling that as well as if it had a proper diff or two motors on the rear wheels.

Basically it'll be playful I think.

[RogEletre]

What is this Traction of which you speak ;-)?  I am just looking forward to not having a vehicle constantly trying to kill me haha.  You are quite correct - 800 horsepower is above 7500 RPM so it gets a touch noisy.

Agree fully with the rest and that’s the fun of the two cars - I suspect the Eletre will be much quicker in the real world actually.  Less of a V12 howl though.

[FastLaneJB]

Yes that's why I moved away from RWD, I think the gods were probably getting fed up of having to perform miracles to keep me alive

Indeed a good AWD with that EV quick punch, on public roads should be pretty quick point to point. At least for an SUV anyway.

[RogEletre]

It gets some very decent reviews - other than software (Volume Control response etc) which are all resolvable over the air.  When they get round to it.

[Andrew P]

Based on my test drives the R feels more like RWD with so much power going to the back (in the wet quite easy to break traction / slide while in Sport mode) whereas in similar conditions the standard model first lost front grip. I much preferred the R. Interested to hear what actual real world range you get in different conditions as that’s the thing I’m still not sure about.

[NickGovaert]

New to this forum as I only picked up my Eletre S last Saturday and immediately put 2000 km on it during a trip to France. Cold weather (around 0 Celsius all trip), 120-130 km on the highway, range setting. Range is very disappointing: around 300 km only! Worst of all is that the car keeps stating that the 100% range is slightly over 500 km. My actual consumption as displayed in the car's system was around 35kw per 100 km. That's in line with the 300 km I was able to get out of it. Even at these conditions (temp, speed) that's far off from what the specs claim

Car is now in at the dealer for a major update. Hopefully this brings some improvement, not only to the actual range, but also to the remaining range indication. 

Drove I Porsche Taycan 4S with performance plus battery. Wasn't much better on range, albeit with a much smaller battery, but did a great job on calculating an accurate and reliable remaining range. 

[FastLaneJB]

Picked my car up today, an R and not been driving in a way I can judge the range properly. 130kmh is 80mph which I believe gives you around a 25% drop in range on an EV compared to 70mph. A bit slower might really make a big difference.

However the main thing I wanted to say was do you have the highway assistance? It seems that the Lidar pops up when that's enabled I noticed today and I bet that probably adds a good amount of drag. Similar to how camera mirrors can reduce it, that's probably adding to it.

[NickGovaert]

@FastLaneJBon first leg of the trip I did not use Lidar, 2nd leg I did. To my experience it made no noticeable difference. 

[FastLaneJB]

So tried a shortish range run up the A1 from near Biggleswade to Peterborough. So that's a mixture of 50 / 60 and 70 roads. Stuck the car in range mode and used highway assist to keep to speed limit. GPS shows it's about 2mph off on my Speedo but highway assist jumps between speed you set it and +1 so would be close. Heating on at 21C (Doesn't feel 21C at all) + heated seat. Temp was 13C but with reasonably strong wind today.

44.4kWh/100 miles if the usable battery is 109kWh (Or is it 106?). That's a range of 245 miles at the moment. Think people with 22's that take it easy in a base or S aren't getting all that much more in current weather.

[Db10mw]

So I did the same trip of around 80 miles, the first in tour mode and the second in range mode and the battery % used was identical.  So no idea what range mode is supposed to do !

[DMR31]

I’ve been having the same range experience as generally described here (mid 200s miles range with my normal driving on a mix of roads; regularly in 45-50kwh /100 miles). Yesterday I did an experiment and tried ‘driving like a monk’ by watching the consumption screen, accelerating really gently until reaching the speed limit and generally trying to drive super smoothly / a fraction slower than my usual more enthusiastic style - and I got ~32kwh/100 miles on a 30 mile journey from cold (I.e much better consumption). I didn’t take a screenshot of the consumption screen sorry otherwise I’d share. Half the miles were on the a3 (50mph) the rest surburban but this is no different to my regular journey.
 

I don’t plan to drive like this normally (it’s just less fun) but I think I understand more the difference between my achieved consumption / range and the official figures. Still hope they can achieve some efficiency gains with software improvements. Fwiw I also used to get way worse than the advertised consumption in my audi s7 and Porsche Cayman S. My Eletre is an S, on 22inch wheels. 

[Emil Borconi]

Well I did a range test while towing....

The lower consumption is with an empty trailer of course:

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/L3rY1FLX9nTVBx9S9

 

Everyone decide if it's good or bad, personally very pleased.

This is with an Eletre R on 22 inch wheels.

[kabre]

So I had a bit of a road trip yesterday to Manchester and back.  Exactly 120 miles each way, and about 4 miles of pottering about in the middle of Manchester to grab lunch.  Weather was about 8 degrees, roads mostly dry with a little rain and fog going over the Woodhead pass, not really any wind.  Car was 95% charged when we left and showing range of 295 miles.  3 adults and a dog in the car and not much in the way of baggage.  The trip was about 60% motorway / dual carriageway driving and I was religiously sticking to 70 mph and trying to drive efficiently as I wanted to make sure that I would not need to charge.  Aircon was on (daughter is always cold!), but not the seat heaters.  The car was in "Range" mode, but aside from changing the throttle response I am not convinced that means anything.

So a 245 mile round trip, but I wasn't able to get there and back on a single charge!  I recharged 36 miles away from home - battery was down to 7% and range was showing 28 miles left.  The car was telling me it would have run out of juice after only 235 miles - 10 miles short of home.  Had I left on 100% charge I might have made it, but it would have been squeaky bum time, and the wife doesn't enjoy such uncertainty - so I'd likely have needed to charge anyway.I was using highway assist / adaptive cruise control a for a fair bit of the journey - and in doing so I am now wondering whether that might negatively impact the range.  I was paying more attention than normal to the regen line on the dash on the way home, and there was a few times when it seemed that the car slowed due to traffic without the regen line registering - but it was definitely more than just air resistance / gravity slowing the car.  It made me wonder whether sometimes the highway assist chooses to use the brakes rather than using regen - possibly because it knows the regen is weak.  Also, looking at the amount of power going into the motor when it is just maintaining speed, the car was constantly increasing and decreasing power rather than just maintaining the appropriate power for the speed - not something I would expect to be the most efficient driving style, and ever so slightly uncomfortable.

I also don't think that the Eletre makes any adjustment of estimated range based on it's knowledge of temperature or it's memory of previous trips / driving styles.  The car always says exactly 312 miles of range when fully charged - regardless of outside temperature, weather or previous trips.  The range on my previous iPace was not great, but it did always do it's best to be honest about the range - so I was generally able to trust it - and that is the key to avoiding range anxiety.  

On the plus side, the charger I stopped at was rated at 180kW, and the car charged at 440mph (just over 700 volts, about 220Amps), so it only needed to charge for a few minutes to get us home - by the time we'd grabbed a coffee at the services the car was back up to 100 miles of range.

But overall, VERY disappointing!

 

[Bibs]

https://www.naf.no/elbil/elprix?leftColumn=Testbiler

[aquiss]

On 12/02/2024 at 13:26, kabre said:

The range on my previous iPace was not great, but it did always do it's best to be honest about the range - so I was generally able to trust it - and that is the key to avoiding range anxiety.

That was more of a perception thing. Coming from First Edition I-Pace myself, delivered on launch week, I (along with a couple of people I class as friends now) was heavily involved with JLR in feeding data back into HQ. The GOM was wildly known to be best efforts that was confirmed from the software devs themselves. JLR were generally just working with a linear estimates, based on battery size v temps etc and were not feeding too much more back into the numbers.

After 12 months, in order to boost "range" rather than working more data in all they did was make 10% more of the LG batteries available, yet the GOM would often just stick to 234 miles available, come rain or shine. Their data was and still remains incomplete, that you could often drive the I-Pace 20+ miles more, with turtle mode saying 0 miles left in the battery. The car just had no coding means to display that remaining energy into useful figures because it was all based on linear numbers.

[C8RKH]

Interesting points @aquiss re the effects of "good" and comprehensive data on the range estimates. I am sure that all manufacturers will get better at this in the future.

It got me thinking on why the manufacturers have not come up with a "standard" pattern and design for battery packs to allow interoperability and easier battery pack swaps/upgrades over time. An industry standard for battery packaging seems logical and would significantly reduce costs of batteries, replacements etc.

Your post seems to validate (to me) my thinking that the USP or "value" is not in the batteries themselves, but the motors that they drive (how efficient/dense they are) and more importantly, the software that governs them.

 

[Bibs]

MJK told me at Kimber's 40th (about 15 years ago) that replacable battery packs would lead to mass adoption of EV's. You'd rock up to a refueling location, the battery would be removed and a fresh, charged one inserted. 3-4 mins, job done. The station can then not only charge but maintain the batteries as required. 

The trouble is that I can't imagine any OEM thinking that their tech was anything but the absolute best and unlikely to adopt anyone else's tech. I can't think of any industry that has a worldwide standard, even phones weren't using the same charging cables since forever but the adoption of USD-C is a godsend and a hard won one at that.

[aquiss]

3 minutes ago, Bibs said:

MJK told me at Kimber's 40th (about 15 years ago) that replacable battery packs would lead to mass adoption of EV's. You'd rock up to a refueling location, the battery would be removed and a fresh, charged one inserted. 3-4 mins, job done. The station can then not only charge but maintain the batteries as required.

Check out Nio. They have battery swap stations, it's part of their USP on some models. However, with the rate of battery and charger development, it's looking increasing that even Nio will follow the rest and go plug in only.

[Bibs]

Someone just popped this on fb - range isn't so much of a big deal when you can charge at 350kw! 

[aquiss]

6 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Someone just popped this on fb - range isn't so much of a big deal when you can charge at 350kw! 

Absolutely. Being based upon a 800v system makes a massive rate of difference, even on slower chargers. The charger curve that Lotus engineers have deployed, is steady right up to about 85%, then you see some stepped drops. However, I recently saw on a 175kW BP Pulse charger, at 95% the car was still requesting 60kW to 70kW.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Bibs said:

MJK told me at Kimber's 40th (about 15 years ago) that replaceable battery packs would lead to mass adoption of EV's. You'd rock up to a refueling location, the battery would be removed and a fresh, charged one inserted. 3-4 mins, job done. The station can then not only charge but maintain the batteries as required. 

Israeli company called "Better Place" had this licked 15 years ago - they just ran out of cash before they could fully commercialise it. To be honest, they were ten years ahead of their time.

Unfortunately, the industry is stuck in the dark ages - the competitive advantage is not in the batteries - they're just a fuel source and should be as cheap as possible, modular (to allow for capacity) and easily replaced. That way the cost per vehicle will significantly reduce and the whole supply chain will become more efficient taking cost out.

The "advantage" is the software you build to exploit and control the batteries, and deploy the power.

Having 100 car manufacturers all building their own "spec" batteries is just nuts - the fact that that was how we did it in phones and laptops is irrelevant, as that was just as wasteful. Apple used it as a way to lock out competitors and restrict user choice. Bonkers.

The current approach is one of things that pisses me off about the whole move to EV - we have a chance to do stuff right, but people are too blind and stuck in the old ways to see it. So we will waste the opportunity. Again.

[kabre]

7 hours ago, Bibs said:

MJK told me at Kimber's 40th (about 15 years ago) that replacable battery packs would lead to mass adoption of EV's. You'd rock up to a refueling location, the battery would be removed and a fresh, charged one inserted. 3-4 mins, job done. The station can then not only charge but maintain the batteries as required. 

The trouble is that I can't imagine any OEM thinking that their tech was anything but the absolute best and unlikely to adopt anyone else's tech. I can't think of any industry that has a worldwide standard, even phones weren't using the same charging cables since forever but the adoption of USD-C is a godsend and a hard won one at that.

I remember this video from a decade ago - all made sense at the time: https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/videos/battery-swap-event

The things that NIO are doing in China definitely sound interesting, but there is a level of cooperation between manufacturers that would seem beyond what is realistic to make this properly viable without a ridiculous amount of market fragmentation.

Totally agree with @Bibs about 350kW charging being something else that significantly offsets range issues, but there is currently also the issue of whether a 350kW capable charger will actually delivery the 350kW that it is supposed to due either restrictions on the grid connection or the agreement with the site on which it is situated - that is separate to the physics of the charge curve - a lot of which the 800V platform engineers out for the Eletre.  It is a shame that "realistic max power" isn't something that you can use to filter charging stations on ZapMap - 350kW chargers delivering only a fraction of the power they are supposed to make a road trip I took over Xmas far more of a PITA that it should have been at several GridServe sites!

[C8RKH]

At last @kabre someone who recognises that the infrastructure capacity around the charging points is relevant to the output of the charging points. And, also recognises that the cars in-built battery management software also has a significant impact on the power that is called for from the chargepoint by the car.

It's still early days, and infrastructure in the chargepoints, and the network around them, is playing catch-up with the capacity that vehicles can cope with. The infrastructure is improving, but it will take another 3-5 years, at least, for the charging experience to become more consistent across the country. This is one of the reasons why i personally do not see the current hiatus in EV sales and adoption as an issue. It gives us some additional time to get the infrastructure out there, stable and consistent before real mass adoption kicks in.

[jimbobjoe]

Did a 200 mile trip yesterday.

All on motorway and A roads, but sticking to 70mph max. Temp was 12 - 16 C.

started at 100% with an estimate of 300 miles.

Finished the journey with 75 miles range left.

So it is getting better (I have also had the 1.3 software update, but I'm not sure it has any battery management improvements in it. 1.4 definitely does)

[FastLaneJB]

On 12/02/2024 at 13:26, kabre said:

So I had a bit of a road trip yesterday to Manchester and back.  Exactly 120 miles each way, and about 4 miles of pottering about in the middle of Manchester to grab lunch.  Weather was about 8 degrees, roads mostly dry with a little rain and fog going over the Woodhead pass, not really any wind.  Car was 95% charged when we left and showing range of 295 miles.  3 adults and a dog in the car and not much in the way of baggage.  The trip was about 60% motorway / dual carriageway driving and I was religiously sticking to 70 mph and trying to drive efficiently as I wanted to make sure that I would not need to charge.  Aircon was on (daughter is always cold!), but not the seat heaters.  The car was in "Range" mode, but aside from changing the throttle response I am not convinced that means anything.

So a 245 mile round trip, but I wasn't able to get there and back on a single charge!  I recharged 36 miles away from home - battery was down to 7% and range was showing 28 miles left.  The car was telling me it would have run out of juice after only 235 miles - 10 miles short of home.  Had I left on 100% charge I might have made it, but it would have been squeaky bum time, and the wife doesn't enjoy such uncertainty - so I'd likely have needed to charge anyway.I was using highway assist / adaptive cruise control a for a fair bit of the journey - and in doing so I am now wondering whether that might negatively impact the range.  I was paying more attention than normal to the regen line on the dash on the way home, and there was a few times when it seemed that the car slowed due to traffic without the regen line registering - but it was definitely more than just air resistance / gravity slowing the car.  It made me wonder whether sometimes the highway assist chooses to use the brakes rather than using regen - possibly because it knows the regen is weak.  Also, looking at the amount of power going into the motor when it is just maintaining speed, the car was constantly increasing and decreasing power rather than just maintaining the appropriate power for the speed - not something I would expect to be the most efficient driving style, and ever so slightly uncomfortable.

I also don't think that the Eletre makes any adjustment of estimated range based on it's knowledge of temperature or it's memory of previous trips / driving styles.  The car always says exactly 312 miles of range when fully charged - regardless of outside temperature, weather or previous trips.  The range on my previous iPace was not great, but it did always do it's best to be honest about the range - so I was generally able to trust it - and that is the key to avoiding range anxiety.  

On the plus side, the charger I stopped at was rated at 180kW, and the car charged at 440mph (just over 700 volts, about 220Amps), so it only needed to charge for a few minutes to get us home - by the time we'd grabbed a coffee at the services the car was back up to 100 miles of range.

But overall, VERY disappointing!

 

So 312 will be the WLTP range of the car, so that's all it's showing you there.

Agree that the Highway Assist doesn't seem to work properly, constantly accelerating and slowing. Cannot understand why it cannot keep the right speed, cars have been about to do this with cruise control for 15 - 20 years probably.