430 vs 410

[DaveW72]

Hello all

I'm interested in perspectives on the 430 vs 410.

I've been lucky enough to have owned a 410 for a few years now. 

Loved every minute of the driving experience!  

Primarily interested in just how much more capable the 430 is on track than the 410?  

Secondarily, is the 430  compromised in any way on road compared to the 410.

Contemplating a swap at some stage and just doing the homework.

Cheers all. 

[jmcvaughn]

The cars are literally identical aside from the variable TC, wing, additional clam vents (the fronts are seemingly for show only, they don't appear to be functional in most cars), front rubber lip and the tune.

They will, under virtually all circumstances, drive identically. Even damper settings and geo are identical.

The only part which would not be interchangeable with the cars would be the variable TC. There are options for the rest, whether OEM, aftermarket, or both.

My money would go into the important bits for a 410 (Komo-Tec EX475, LSD) and keep on driving!

[Tex]

14 hours ago, DaveW72 said:

Hello all

I'm interested in perspectives on the 430 vs 410.

I've been lucky enough to have owned a 410 for a few years now. 

Loved every minute of the driving experience!  

Primarily interested in just how much more capable the 430 is on track than the 410?  

Secondarily, is the 430  compromised in any way on road compared to the 410.

Contemplating a swap at some stage and just doing the homework.

Cheers all. 

This has been covered on a number of occasions here.

The consensus is 410 owners seem to think there are only a few differences, present company excepted. 

Actually there are numerous differences which overall do add up to be significant, particularly for track use.

Probably why many owners attempt to make there’s look like a Cup430 
 

I’m sure GT3 owners believe there isn’t much difference to a GT3RS 

Edited July 12 by Tex

[C8RKH]

Regardless of 410 v 430, or GT3 v GT3RS, the main difference is the 70-100kg of deadweight in the drivers seat.

A good driver in a 410 or GT3 will always be faster than a poor driver in a 430 or GT3RS.

The only time I'd argue the car would be the difference is in the very top echelons of motorsport, like F1, but then along come exceptional drivers like Clark, Senna, Hamilton, Verstappen who prove that theory wrong.

[tim_marra]

As a 100kg+ crap driver, where do I stand 

[C8RKH]

At the back of the queue for the donuts for sure.

And do not even think about going near the biscuit barrel!

 

Edited July 12 by Bravo73

[Paul_D]

As Tex said, it's a topic that has been covered before and one which people have different opinions on. I'm one of the people who thinks that whilst there are differences, I don't personally consider them 'significant' in terms of how the car will drive. But it's an interesting discussion to have, and as an Engineer I enjoy looking into things like this.

Before I say anything else, I want to preface this with the statement that I think the 430 Cup is awesome, and clearly the top of the tree. The only reason I have a 410 instead of a 430 is that I simply couldn't afford it. That's the honest truth. So I don't want this come across as if I'm being negative towards the 430, I'm simply giving some facts (and my opinions) in answer the original posters question based on my previous research, parts checks, Lotus Service manuals, Youtube videos etc.

Let's start with the easy part, what's the same between the two:

Suspension - Both have Nitron 3-ways with the same spring rates. They have the same compression / rebound settings from the factory and the same ride height.

Anti-Roll Bars - Both have the same Eibach 3-way adjustable bars

Brakes - Identical Calipers, Discs and Pads.

Wheels & Tyres -  Identical wheels, and both use Cup 2 tyres of the same size.

These aspects alone mean that in normal driving any differences between the two aren't going to be huge. It also answers the OP's question of whether the 430 is compromised for road driving. No, with the exception of the lower rubber splitter, the 430 will be just as nice to drive on the road as a 410.

Rear window - both cars have the lightweight polycarbonate option fitted.

Carbon bits - Front panel and rear hatch are the same on both. As is the splitter, except the 410 doesn't have the rubber lip.

Other mechanical similarities (compared to other models) that are beneficial on track are the fact that both engines are charge cooled, both have baffled sumps, and both gearboxes have the oil cooler fitted.

Some aspects are obviously dependent on the original specification of the car, and that's where there might potentially be a difference when choosing between two models. Obviously when I look at these things I can't help but compare to the spec of 410 that I actually bought and own.

Battery - 430 came with the lightweight lithium-ion battery as standard. But my 410 also has that fitted from the factory.

Seats - Carbon fibre seats were standard on the 430, but not always fitted to the 410. Mine has carbon seats fitted, as did most of the 410's I looked at.

Roof - Carbon standard on 430. Mine has the carbon roof fitted, but this did seem to be relatively rare on 410's. How much weight is saved I'm not sure, as I don't believe the normal roof is exactly heavy. 

Exhaust - The 430 has the Titanium exhaust as standard. It was an option for the 410, but very few that I've seen have the fitted. The elephant in the room (in the UK at least) is that both of them are too bloody loud to get on track. So realistically, if we're talking about track use both model are going to end up with an aftermarket exhaust of the owners choosing. Obviously changing the exhaust also reduces the 430's weight advantage that the Titanium system gives.

I think that covers the similarities, so onto the differences which unfortunately can be a bit more subjective.

Aero package - The 430 has a rubber lip, vented arches, and different rear wing. 410 makes 150kg at top speed vs 220kg for the 430. As a headline figure that looks quite large, but as I've mentioned before, the key part of that sentence is 'top speed'. Aerodynamics are a square function vs speed, so what you really care about are the values at the important speeds. When I was thinking of getting some different parts such as the 430 wing I did a quick graph of the downforce levels at various speeds. 

This paints a slightly different picture to the headline figures. I would say a very fast corner at most tracks for a car like the Exige would be around 100mph. At that speed, the 430 has around 22kg more downforce than a 410. I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe that I could feel a 22kg downforce difference on a car that weighs around 1100kg. 

Engine Power - The 430 has 20 Bhp more. It's obviously going to be a bit faster in a straight line. Again, it's subjective on what you consider to be 'significantly faster'. There aren't that many videos with speed displayed on Youtube, but there are a few. Snetterton has a couple of pretty long straights, not many tracks have a straight longer than the back Bentley straight. Looking at the two videos below, you can see that the 430 reaches 134mph on the Start straight, vs 133mph for my 410. On the back Bentley straight he reaches 139mph, whereas I only reach 137mph. Obviously that's just a single data point, but I looked at his Cadwell video and the difference was similar. (The videos are for top speed purposes only, lap times are FAR too driver dependent)

430 Lap

 

410 Lap

430 only advantages / specifics:

The variable traction control was only available on the 430, and I don't believe anybody has successfully fitted it to a 410 retrospectively.

Airbag delete - This was an option on the 430 to save weight, but I don't think it was available on the 410

Clamshells - 430 has different (lighter?) clamshells, and as an overall package the car looks more aggressive in my opinion.

I think that covers most of my thoughts on the differences and hopefully that might be a useful guide for people in the future. I'm sure others will be able to pick up on anything I've missed or got wrong. I've tried to be as factual as possible, but also given my opinion on why I don't personally consider the differences to be enough for the average person to notice on track.

Or to put it in the context of the OP's question, I think if you put me in a 430 out on track, my lap times would be within the same range that they are now given that I'm a hobby driver and my lap times vary by much more than a couple of tenths per lap anyway. Put a pro driver in the car and you'd obviously expect him be quicker in the 430 vs a 410. 

[NeilP]

Hope you don’t mind me adding here… I’m going to look at a 410. 
 

are there any known issues with charge coolers / leaking? This one had had them replaced, along with disks / pads / tyres @ 12k miles.

 

https://www.macsonscars.co.uk/cars/lotus/exige/sport/977973/

[Paul_D]

11 minutes ago, NeilP said:

Hope you don’t mind me adding here… I’m going to look at a 410. 
 

are there any known issues with charge coolers / leaking? This one had had them replaced, along with disks / pads / tyres @ 12k miles.

Yes, apparently there is an known issue with the radiators leaking although I wasn't actually aware of it until I saw a post on the V6 owners facebook group today.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/244205262448043

Dave from Seriously Lotus said he's had to change a few. 

[NeilP]

Thanks Paul, they have been changed on this car. I’ll take a look at the FB, thanks for sharing 

[Gordon S]

On 13/07/2024 at 13:25, Paul_D said:

As Tex said, it's a topic that has been covered before and one which people have different opinions on. I'm one of the people who thinks that whilst there are differences, I don't personally consider them 'significant' in terms of how the car will drive. But it's an interesting discussion to have, and as an Engineer I enjoy looking into things like this.

Before I say anything else, I want to preface this with the statement that I think the 430 Cup is awesome, and clearly the top of the tree. The only reason I have a 410 instead of a 430 is that I simply couldn't afford it. That's the honest truth. So I don't want this come across as if I'm being negative towards the 430, I'm simply giving some facts (and my opinions) in answer the original posters question based on my previous research, parts checks, Lotus Service manuals, Youtube videos etc.

Let's start with the easy part, what's the same between the two:

Suspension - Both have Nitron 3-ways with the same spring rates. They have the same compression / rebound settings from the factory and the same ride height.

Anti-Roll Bars - Both have the same Eibach 3-way adjustable bars

Brakes - Identical Calipers, Discs and Pads.

Wheels & Tyres -  Identical wheels, and both use Cup 2 tyres of the same size.

These aspects alone mean that in normal driving any differences between the two aren't going to be huge. It also answers the OP's question of whether the 430 is compromised for road driving. No, with the exception of the lower rubber splitter, the 430 will be just as nice to drive on the road as a 410.

Rear window - both cars have the lightweight polycarbonate option fitted.

Carbon bits - Front panel and rear hatch are the same on both. As is the splitter, except the 410 doesn't have the rubber lip.

Other mechanical similarities (compared to other models) that are beneficial on track are the fact that both engines are charge cooled, both have baffled sumps, and both gearboxes have the oil cooler fitted.

Some aspects are obviously dependent on the original specification of the car, and that's where there might potentially be a difference when choosing between two models. Obviously when I look at these things I can't help but compare to the spec of 410 that I actually bought and own.

Battery - 430 came with the lightweight lithium-ion battery as standard. But my 410 also has that fitted from the factory.

Seats - Carbon fibre seats were standard on the 430, but not always fitted to the 410. Mine has carbon seats fitted, as did most of the 410's I looked at.

Roof - Carbon standard on 430. Mine has the carbon roof fitted, but this did seem to be relatively rare on 410's. How much weight is saved I'm not sure, as I don't believe the normal roof is exactly heavy. 

Exhaust - The 430 has the Titanium exhaust as standard. It was an option for the 410, but very few that I've seen have the fitted. The elephant in the room (in the UK at least) is that both of them are too bloody loud to get on track. So realistically, if we're talking about track use both model are going to end up with an aftermarket exhaust of the owners choosing. Obviously changing the exhaust also reduces the 430's weight advantage that the Titanium system gives.

I think that covers the similarities, so onto the differences which unfortunately can be a bit more subjective.

Aero package - The 430 has a rubber lip, vented arches, and different rear wing. 410 makes 150kg at top speed vs 220kg for the 430. As a headline figure that looks quite large, but as I've mentioned before, the key part of that sentence is 'top speed'. Aerodynamics are a square function vs speed, so what you really care about are the values at the important speeds. When I was thinking of getting some different parts such as the 430 wing I did a quick graph of the downforce levels at various speeds. 

This paints a slightly different picture to the headline figures. I would say a very fast corner at most tracks for a car like the Exige would be around 100mph. At that speed, the 430 has around 22kg more downforce than a 410. I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe that I could feel a 22kg downforce difference on a car that weighs around 1100kg. 

Engine Power - The 430 has 20 Bhp more. It's obviously going to be a bit faster in a straight line. Again, it's subjective on what you consider to be 'significantly faster'. There aren't that many videos with speed displayed on Youtube, but there are a few. Snetterton has a couple of pretty long straights, not many tracks have a straight longer than the back Bentley straight. Looking at the two videos below, you can see that the 430 reaches 134mph on the Start straight, vs 133mph for my 410. On the back Bentley straight he reaches 139mph, whereas I only reach 137mph. Obviously that's just a single data point, but I looked at his Cadwell video and the difference was similar. (The videos are for top speed purposes only, lap times are FAR too driver dependent)

430 Lap

 

410 Lap

430 only advantages / specifics:

The variable traction control was only available on the 430, and I don't believe anybody has successfully fitted it to a 410 retrospectively.

Airbag delete - This was an option on the 430 to save weight, but I don't think it was available on the 410

Clamshells - 430 has different (lighter?) clamshells, and as an overall package the car looks more aggressive in my opinion.

I think that covers most of my thoughts on the differences and hopefully that might be a useful guide for people in the future. I'm sure others will be able to pick up on anything I've missed or got wrong. I've tried to be as factual as possible, but also given my opinion on why I don't personally consider the differences to be enough for the average person to notice on track.

Or to put it in the context of the OP's question, I think if you put me in a 430 out on track, my lap times would be within the same range that they are now given that I'm a hobby driver and my lap times vary by much more than a couple of tenths per lap anyway. Put a pro driver in the car and you'd obviously expect him be quicker in the 430 vs a 410. 

Fantastic answer. Balanced and comprehensive. 👏

[auRouge]

@Paul_D thanks for that comparison, every day is a learning day! Really enjoyed reading that.

@DaveW72 here’s a mate of mine in his 430 Cup and me in my 410 Sport at Spa for a bit of fun.. We’re both similar age, weight and ability on the same tyres.