Bosch K-Jetronic CIS Car Owners, UNITE!

[MrDangerUS]

1986 HC, 1987 HC, 1988 X180, Bosch K-Jetronic Continous Injection System cars should have a separate thread because of their unique fuel system and unique problems.

They are fabulous when they run. When they stop-it is not funny. There is no scan tool to tell you where to look for the fault.

Most of the problems could be solved easily, but diagnostics is rather complicated.

For example:

my 88 X180 did not wake up from the winter hibernation. I checked the usual suspects, hoses, wires,spark,battery,etc.

I can hear pump(s) buzzing and can smell the fuel in the exhaust pipe area after prolonged cranking. No start.

My suspicion is that one of the "modules", like RPM or Overboost relays may cause no-start condition.

Last time I drove the car, the boost needle was fluctuating wildly over 3500 rpm and car was surging. No power at WOT, (felt like applying brakes).

She behaved nice and normal below 3200 rpms.

Have you ever experienced condition similar to mine.

Well, I have a long list of mods for this car, meanwhile DOB does not want to start!

Isn't it rediculous?

Here are links to my other 86,87,88 specific postings. Please add your comments/experiences.

http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/index.php/topic/41442-x180-hci-modifications-and-specs/

and

http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/index.php/topic/41947-bosch-k-jetronic-cis-tuning-86hc-87hc-88-x180-esprit/

[MrDangerUS]

No Bosch CIS car owners on this site?

Factory production numbers show that, there were 719 Turbo cars with Bosch K-Jetro w/lambda CIS made for the US market and 125 units for Australia.

That makes 844 units total. Considering that some cars were totalled or scrapped, let's say 800 is still on the road.

Edited April 27, 2011 by MrDangerUS

[rogerch]

Sorry mine's on Delortos, UK delivery.

[s2mikey]

Count me in! '87 HCi. No offense to our carbed brothers but after having FI cars I dont think I could EVER go back to having carburetors on any car, let alone an exotic.

As for your issue - Ive never experienced that. Its probably some sensor, like you are figuring. Mine has been running/working great for many miles but they can be complicated to troubleshoot. The nice thing is that the Bosch K system is fairly popular and many cars used it. If you had to, it probably wouldnt be hard to find a specialist that knows the system and could help you out.

Edited April 28, 2011 by s2mikey

[redshift]

Not on the Lotus but the TVR is fitted with K-jetronic CIS.

Have 20 years of experience with that one.

[MrDangerUS]

If you have Bosch Jetro you are Welcomed! This forum lacked in Bosch CIS department for quite a long time!

20 years of CIS experience, wow! I'd like to learn all what you know.

My experience in this matter is very basic.

Well, I have spark, car cranks OK, faint smell of gas from the pipe, very faint. I'm going to check my pumps tomorrow.

I understand they are of Porsche 911 or 930. The OEM pumps were Bosch and they have different part numbers. Of course I don't know if DPO used Bosch or Chink-shait.

My cross reference notes show the primary (lower flow pump) as a Bosch 0580-254-967 or GFP 208 which supposedly was a 911 Turbo pump. The secondary pump is supposedly Bosch 0580-254-979 or GFP 214.

I check the pump specs and came up with Walbro GSL 392 (255liter/hour at 80psi) $100 and it says Made in USA! I'm wondering if this would be ok to use. I know one pump works, but don't know which. I can hear buzzing when I turn the ignition on. Probably, I need one pump. Can use this high vol pump in place of low vol pump?

More is better, I guess...

The specs on low pump shows 148 LPH /73psi. To have two hi output pumps wouldn't hurt anything?

I heard of the trick calling for jumpering the bases of the pump relays. I 'd like to do that to hear if both pumps are working. I'm not going to blow up the garage?

Could you give me some pointers?

BR

Edited April 29, 2011 by MrDangerUS

[MrDangerUS]

I checked the pumps by jumpering terminals 30 and 87 at the relay sockets.

Well, the Jury is in!

My primary pump sounds like a coffee grinder and finally jammed after few seconds. RIP! Surprisingly, it was an original Bosch PN # 0 580 245 967, NOT chink-comm part.

It is totally shut! Kaput und auf Wiedersehen. Ich muss neue Pumpe kaufen!

Secondary pump sounds quiet and smooth.

I suspect that debris from the tank got into the primary pump since there is NO FILTER between tank and the pumps. That is why Bosch CIS cars malfunction so often!

Major design flaw on part of the Lotus Engineering. Perhaps cost savings.

First thing first! I'm adding pre - primary pump filter!!!

GHRRR, I have to siphon 15 gallons of gas tomorrow before disconnecting pump.

[Rich H]

Can I join in? My Porsche 924's both have/had CIS.

The turbo still does, the other car is long dead.

I do have to admit vandalizing the first one and fitting EFi though...

Both cars have taken us all over France, longest trip was 1500 miles where the turbo averaged 37mpg! Lots of lovely smooth, quiet and well maintained tarmac!

We'll be going to Brittany later this year in it too - I'd take the Esprit but she likes to pack heavy...

[mdw]

I suspect that debris from the tank got into the primary pump since there is NO FILTER between tank and the pumps.

That reminds me is there a good reason why the filter is on the out side of the pump and not the inward pipe? My 88 n/a is the same and when I fitted a new pump I thought it looked a dodgy position. However I assumed Lotus knew what they were doing so kept it as per factory. Can I put it between the pump and tanks without causing problems?

[Rich H]

There should be a strainer in the tank before the pump to stop anything big enough to damage the pump.

[MrDangerUS]

Cars with in-tank fuel pumps have strainers, but pre -SE cars dont! Criminal negligence! I'm adding Baldwin canister pre-pump filter. I decided that, I shall never, ever loose a pump to grit from the tanks.

It seems my fuel accumulator is on the fritz, too.

Also, I'm looking for adding zinc sacrificial cathodes or electronic Rust-stopper devices. Just investigating for now.

I let you know if I find something effective.

Looks like comrades from Russia are selling these electronic "sardine boxes" relatively cheap.

[Rich H]

Marine supply places should be able to provide zinc anodes they are used on outboard motors and propshafts

[MrDangerUS]

The battery- to- chassis grounding point is at the right side frame upper member, outboard and across from the alternator under the air cleaner box.

Both tanks are grounded w/short braided straps to the central " underbelly tub". I did some resistance readings:

FROM the battery grounding terminal@ chassis

1) to passenger tank strap 0.0 ohm

2) to driver tank strap 0.05 ohm

3) to the engine @ TBs 0 ohm

4) to the fuel distributor 0.03 ohm

5) to the ignition box ground point at the coil 0.1 (!)

Next, I hooked a long thick wire to the farthest point (at the left tank), and from that point measured resistance:

6) to fuel distributor 0. 07 ohm

7) to engine top @ TBs 0.0

I need to find a higher precision ohm meter and repeat the measurements.

In my opinion, in the situation where we have several "grounded" objects (electrodes) immersed in electrolyte, the electrodes with smallest concentration of electrons (electron deficiency due to the resistance drop across the grounding path outside of the vessel), despite still carrying a negative charge, may become a localized semi-cathodes (they become "less negative"), but only in relation to the other electrodes and therefore prone to accelerated corrosion.

My preliminary conclusion: I need to run grounding wires from the fuel distributor to the engine and battery grounding terminal. In addition, a wire from the ignition box to the battery negative terminal.

[MrDangerUS]

Bosch CIS K-Jetronic injection tuning, trouble shooting, etc. http://forums.vwvort...6-CIS-Injection

Megasquirt and other DIY parts: http://www.diyautotune.com/

[outatym2001]

Hi John L.

I just tried that link you provided in the thread below and I can’t get it to work.

Do you have to be a member of the VW forum to display the threads?

Here is the link I couldn’t get to work.

http://forums.vwvort...6-cis-injection/

By the way I have owned a 1981 DeLorean with Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection for 10 years and 2 months.

I leave all the major engine diagnosing and repairs to my local DeLorean service center

http://www.dmcnorthwest.com

The simpler stuff I do myself.

I was thinking about buying one or both of these manuals below since I really should understand more about my mechanical fuel injection set up.

Does anyone else use these manuals at their home garage?

Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/BOOK/POR_BOOK_bkptec_pg24.htm

Solving Bosch Continuous Injection System (CIS) Problems

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/BOOK/POR_BOOK_bkptec_pg23.htm

Mark Vanyo.

P.S. MrDangerUs I tried sending you a message but I get the error message, “The member MrDangerUS cannot receive any new messages.”

[The Veg]

John,

My accumulator was (unbeknownst to me) shot when I bought my car. The seller said it had been driven 63 miles since fueling when the shipper came to pick it up...and eight miles after I took delivery, the thing ran out! After a tow home and some poking and prodding, I found fuel dripping from the accumulator. It sprung a leak and fuel may have been spraying out! I feel lucky that a fire didn't happen- how much would THAT suck, the very day of acquiring a car I'd dreamed of for thirty years?

PS- any more word on that DWUR we were talking about?

Edited May 6, 2011 by The Veg

[MrDangerUS]

Hello MARK, Welcome, (Outatym 2001)

3.0 L engine? Wow, I want to hear about that! In which car?

To answer your questions:

Yes, to read all the chat at VW blog, one has to join, but it is FREE and very easy to do. It is worth it, these guys are real CIS wizards (at least some of them).

One CIS adjustable WUR thread has 54 pages!!!

I know both books you mentioned. The first one is an excellent "CIS principles" book and has some diagnostic value.

The second book is extremely rare and Pelican has it on back order - I'll let you know when I get it. Book ISBN # is 9781885477088, try to google it, no one has it.

Yes, my mail box may be full; I'll try to do some house cleaning over the weekend.

Check this: http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/index.php/topic/41947-bosch-k-jetronic-cis-tuning-86hc-87hc-88-x180-esprit/

BEN, (The Veg),

I have the same problem! Accumulator drips from the back end. After 20 and some years of flexing the diaphragm or seals must be leaking.

Original Bosch parts are harder and harder to get.

I have an extra part, if you need.

Rusting Esprit tanks are the fact of life. There is no escape from it.

When I get it, I will experiment with the "electron pump" device to see if it can slow down the corrosion process.

TO AVOID STARTING PROBLEMS & PREMATURE PUMP & ACCUMULATOR FAILURES, EVERY CIS CAR OWNER MUST INSTALL AUXILLIARY LOW RESTRICTION FUEL FILTER/STRAINER BETWEEN THE TANK AND THE PRIMARY PUMP!

I'm plumbing in Earl's 23012ERL, AN12 , 85 micron filter.

D-WUR:

Here is my conversation with UTICS tech-guy, Steve:

[...]

John,

The great thing about CIS is that the learning curve is a lot less than for EFI!

It's a significant loss of power if the fuel delivery is not sensitive to engine load, meaning no connection to Manifold Air Pressure (MAP). Getting a different part number WUR with a MAP connection would not do much good because it's not calibrated to your fuel distributor. That's why we came up with the UTCIS DWUR. Manipulating the CP with an electronic regulation loop is the only way to tune CIS fuel delivery. Modifying or adjusting the WUR only allows you to shift the entire fuel delivery curve up or down across the board. That's useless. You could accomplish the same thing with the adjustment screw on the air metering plate.

Steve

Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 12:01 PM

To: sschlanger

Subject: RE: UTICS D-WUR for 1986, 1987 and 1988 Lotus Esprit Turbo

Hi Steve,

Yes, I'm sure of this number.

Thank you for very interesting email. I'm learning about CIS and still at the bottom of the learning curve, LOL.

I read somewhere, that there are models of CPRs that have a port which connects to the intake manifold (vacuum). As the manifold pressure increases, less vacuum, it causes the CPR to alter its pressure on the plunger which causes the mixture to be enriched. The only one I know that VW had was for the European KR code 16v engine. Audi used at least one on the older CIS turbo models (5000?). Both I believe are no longer produced and you would have to fine a rebuilt one or used one. Other makes also had them, like Merc and Saab.

What do you think going that way would accomplish?

Best Regards

JohnL

From: sschlanger

Subject: RE: UTICS D-WUR for 1986, 1987 and 1988 Lotus Esprit Turbo

Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:40:20 -0700

John,

That's amazing. Are you sure the part number of your WUR is 0 438 140 026? If so you're in luck. This part number is a very generic unit which is used on early Audi and VW applications without turbo charging. This means that there is a LOT of performance available that you're not using. It was a normal practice back then to reach into the parts bin for low volume cars, like Ferrari, Delorean, etc.. A "generic" WUR, like the 026, will not give you the mid-range enrichment that your engine needs. The boost was probably overly cautious for that reason. My guess is that with suitable tuning, both fuel delivery and ignition timing, will add 25% more torque in the mid-range. We've done better than this with "generic", poorly matched WURs many times.

Steve

Well, Ben, if you want to be the first one... let me know! I'll try to negotiate a "group buy", perhaps for less than 770.

Cheers

John

Edited May 6, 2011 by MrDangerUS

[The Veg]

I have the same problem! Accumulator drips from the back end. After 20 and some years of flexing the diaphragm or seals must be leaking.

Original Bosch parts are harder and harder to get.

I got one no problem in November, I think from RD Enterprises. A Por$che dealer might have it too.

When I get it, I will experiment with the "electron pump" device to see if it can slow down the corrosion process.

How do you plan to measure how well it works?

TO AVOID STARTING PROBLEMS & PREMATURE PUMP & ACCUMULATOR FAILURES, EVERY CIS CAR OWNER MUST INSTALL AUXILLIARY LOW RESTRICTION FUEL FILTER/STRAINER BETWEEN THE TANK AND THE PRIMARY PUMP!

I'm plumbing in Earl's 23012ERL, AN12 , 85 micron filter.

Tell me about this please? Nothing comes up when I search on it...

D-WUR:

Well, Ben, if you want to be the first one... let me know! I'll try to negotiate a "group buy", perhaps for less than 770.

Lemme know how that goes...I'm really interested but 770 is way more than I can budget these days for something that isn't absolutely necessary.

[MrDangerUS]

I will set up an experiment using two metal cans filled with acetic or oxalic acid and a battery charger. Quick and brutal, but the difference in corrosive action should show in couple of days. That will be good enough.

Pre-filter has been a standard racing set-up (requirement) for eons.

Lotus guys cut corners in many areas. Remember that first and most important objective of each company is... profit!

Therefore they used only one filter. You can trust my expertise in this matter.

WUR: would be nice if I could approach utics guys with 4-5 orders. Don't you know anyone who would team-up with us?

Edited May 7, 2011 by MrDangerUS

[Rich H]

The fuel accumulators are VERY expensive (Certianly in the UK)

A trick the EFI guys use is a 'T' piece with a long piece (1m/3') of hose with a bung in the end so the straight through bit of the T is in the fuel line and the other part points upwards. The hose must be kept above the level of the fuel line

What happens is this hose is full of air so acts as a gas spring and acts like an accumulator. The hose must be capable of holding 5+ Bar of fuel ((70+ psi?) and must be secured properly with clips out of the way.

I have not had to use this but it has been used on EFI cars before.

Alternatively item 12 in this picture - be warned though this place supplies USED parts unless it says otherwise.

http://dcauto.gotdns.com/illustration/index/2634254

[MrDangerUS]

Thanks Rich,

Yup, they are around 150 USD, and I agree, NEVER use a "used" accumulator.

I would never, ever do the hose trick. it is too dangerous and does not work well for hot re-starts.

In your attachment the part numbers are not Bosch, but Porsche PN#s.

If you need Lotus Bosch CIS system specific part, PM me, I have spares!!!

Here is the list Bosch fuel pumps w/specs. Turbo Bosch Injected cars have specific pumps!

Primary (first, fed from the tank) PN# 0 580 254 967 which could be substituted by 0 580 254 984

Secondary PN# 0 580 254 967 which could be substituted by 0 580 254 044

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/fuelpumps.pdf

This link has beaucoup of other Bosch Fuel Management Systems components, catalogues and specifications:

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/html/4554.htm

Turbo Esprits should use a hi-flow (300gal/hour!) f.filter like Purolator F64857, "after" the pumps.

and Earl's PN# 20212ERL or equivalent, 85 micron, as a pre-filter in "front" of the pumps.

It is a good ROI, considering that pre-filter cost only 50USD (life time use!) and each pump cost 200 USD and sometimes more. I use AN-12 fittings and hoses for non restrictive fuel flow supply to the pumps.

Next week, when I'm done, I will snap a couple of pictures of my DIY plumbing installation.

Edited May 7, 2011 by MrDangerUS

[Rich H]

Remember my experience of CIS is all Porsche 924!

My Esprit is an S4 with EFI

Edited May 7, 2011 by Rich H

[MrDangerUS]

Rich, that is good. CIS is CIS, does not matter what car...

They all use Bosch parts anyway.

Question to ALL:

Do you have any idea what car is a donor for "Lotus specific, genuine" auxilliary bypass valve, Bosch PN# 0 280 142 020 ?

With time passing by, I'm getting panicky about availability of sensors/CIS components. I'm thinking about getting "spares" now, before they get totally unobtainable.

Auxilliary Bypass Valve:ford number is 6129467 or bosch number 0280142020

It was used on Ford Sierra XR4i (1984)

Top domains for Bosch auto parts: http://65.39.72.142/Term.aspx?t=20880868&org=50

Considering the function of auxilliary bypass valve and Chapmans "design" practices, do you yhink Audi or Volvo part would fit/attach properly.

Personally I think it would... as long as connectors are the same.

Check the price fluctuations dependent on the model they suppose to fit

Anyting with Porsche or Maserati is 5x more expensive

Auxiliary Air Valve | eBay

PS. What is the easiest way to run couple wires between engine bay and dashboard. I want to add couple of gauges to my engine.

Cheers

For the record: the WUR PN# is 0 438 140 026

J

Edited May 8, 2011 by MrDangerUS

[outatym2001]

Aha. MrDangerUS.

Thanks to you it was one of your previous threads that started my idea about purchasing those two Bosch mechanical fuel injection books that I mention in my earlier post.

I joined The Lotus Forums and paid my yearly dues and searched for and received Turbo Esprit 1980-87 Parts List in PDF format.

http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/index.php/forum/42-paid-member-discounts/

I now see what you guys are dealing with having two fuel tanks and one pump and one fuel filter. The fuel exits the bottom of the tank on the Esprit where in the DeLorean the fuel is drawn from the top with a rubber hose inside the tank (at the end of the rubber hose is a fuel screen) and that fuel screen rests on the bottom of the tank.

MrDangerUS

Please see illustration 17.01A in the Turbo Esprit 1980-87 Parts List and the crappy illustration shows the two main wire harnesses go from under the radio and follow a path rearward under the vinyl covered arm rest. Arm rest illustration page 15.19A This is exactly the same in the DeLorean. The wire harnesses lays on top of the fiber glass (GRP) body but are hidden underneath the vinyl covered interior trim pieces.

I would recommend running any interior wires along this path where the existing wires are. I did the same when I installed an alarm system in my DeLorean and needed to run wires from the electrical box behind the passenger seat to the front to connect to the door light switches and another wire to the ignition for remote starting.

Wow! They put electrical relays in the front and rear of the Esprit. In the DeLorean every relay is in a compartment behind the passenger seat along with the fuse box. The Parts List shows four fuses in the Esprit under the dash some where in illustration 17.19A.

[MrDangerUS]

Hey Mark, my car has two pumps and one filter, but in the wrong place, look at 44.03 C. No pre-filter to prevent the crap from getting sucked into a first pump.

I am plumbing in Earl's 85 micron pre-filter strainer after loosing the pump.

Thanks for the routing suggestion.

After you looked at the parts views, now you know why owning an Esprit is an "Engineering Adventure".

Is the 3.0 L in your DMC? What is the "donor" car for that?

Here is the link for Lotus Esprit With Buick GNX Motor , and Turbocharged! http://blog.cardomain.com/2010/07/21/lotus-esprit-with-buick-gnx-motor-on-ebay/

Pretty slick!

Edited May 10, 2011 by MrDangerUS