Ford GT / GT40

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

The ONLY mainstream manufacturer to have managed to make a true supercar?

How does Jaguar's XJ220 stack up - Yes it's definitely supercar but are THEY a mainstream manufacturer?

GM / Vauxhall, Toyota, Renault, Citroen, Audi, Fiat Chevrolet etc etc etc All nothing!

Mercedes have the McMerc I guess (I just don't like it! ) I don't think any of the German manufacturers have ever made anything that make me feel the supercar 'must have' bug... (I like the VW beetle and associated bug-bus! but NOT their b4st4rd offspring, the Porkey-Yawn-Mobile)

Honda's NSX will never be considered a true supercar because every time you see one you have the "Oh it's just a Honda" factor (Sorry Tony!) It's just not exotic. (I wonder if the HSC might have changed that? ...but alas we'll never find out - a loss imho)

The Corvette and Viper are blisteringly quick but again have NO exotic, wow-factor to them.

Ford aren't remotely exotic as manufacturer and none of their other cars have 'it' but there's something about the legendary GT40 that gives it cache DESPITE being "just a Ford"

[WayneB]

Geoff Lawson outdid himself on the XJ 220

Even though it has the performance, that 6R4 Metro based V6 was the wrong engine to put in this car

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

Yes but only in the same sense that the 2.2 litre in-line 4 was the wrong car to put in an Esprit!

Both engines do the job incredibly well but just don't have the right 'reputation'.

The Esprit 'needed' the V8 and the XJ220 needed an obscene, Lambo eating V12!

That Cosworth engine still powered that car to over 200mph - was it the first 'production' car to break the 200mph barrier?

(I personally don't really consider the GT40 to be a production car)

[Jussi]

How about these for a supercar

AlfaRomeo 33 Stradale (I'm sure Wayne likes )

BMW M1

Mercedes CLK GTR, or was it mentioned earlier...

Audi R8 which might come in future???

I don't like the looks.

Maserati MC12, allright it's not "a normal car manufacture"...

[Advantage]

I think this GM car is quite super:

[Jonathan]

Depends how you class a super car, which is another argument all together.

Most people you talk to will say it HAS to have a mid engine...does that make the Mclaren Mercedes SLR not a super car ?

Think the XJ220 comes close, Jag make some pooter mobiles as well as some nice wheels but I suppose they are a luxury marque, same could be said of Mercedes who need Mclarens help.

The GT borrows heavily from the GT40 which was a Lola design ? The styling was pretty much done for them as well as the concept so they had a helping hand to start with.

Having said that there is the GT90, but doesn't count really becuase it's not in production.

You could argue corvette + Viper (Chevrolet and Dodge / Chrysler) not mid engine but have the exclusivity, looks and performance to match.

However I do disagree with the Honda NSX, it is a true supercar, if you were to de-bagde it and show it in a group of people who had never seen cars like that before and give them the requesits of a supercar they would put a stamp on the NSX. in fact I would suggest it was one of the more important supercars ever made - I have huge respect for what it did for the performance car scene as opposed to it's standard performance spec.

[diver_dylan]

How about the S7?

[mayevora]

Geoff Lawson outdid himself on the XJ 220

Even though it has the performance, that 6R4 Metro based V6 was the wrong engine to put in this car

Always hated the boring looking wheels on the XJ220.

As for the Audi R8 - uglyness personified.

[Paul C]

The ONLY mainstream manufacturer to have managed to make a true supercar?

...Honda's NSX will never be considered a true supercar because every time you

see one you have the "Oh it's just a Honda" factor (Sorry Tony!) It's just not exotic.

Ford aren't remotely exotic as manufacturer and none of their other cars have 'it' but

there's something about the legendary GT40 that gives it cache DESPITE being "just a Ford"

The original GT40 was a race car only, in fact i think it was only the GT40 MkIII

that ford offered as a very rare (30 cars?) limited run of road going cars. It was built

to Race and thats pretty much all it did. A lot of the mainstream manufacturers

have race cars running (eg F1).

It's the 'Every time you see one' that the NSX can be proud of. I'll probably live

my life and die without seeing an original GT40 on the road (although i'll see a few

very nice replicas).

If you want mainstream then the NSX is it, after all it's built in a mainstream car

factory, whereas the GT40's for the road were specials and parts of it were built

all over the place by various different companys and Ford subsidiary companies.

The tiny amount of roadgoing GT40's were hardly built, ordered or sold in a mainstream

way at all. If renault F1 sold 30 roadgoing 'Alonso', they would have nothing to do with

mainstream renaults, you would not be able to buy them at a dealer, and the closest

they would come to the Renault car factory would be on a promotion of something.

The NSX is a true production supercar you could order from any Honda dealer,

in the colour of your choice, and know that you would actually get one.

The GT40 is a supercar, on a poster, and a lovely one at that.

B)

The RS500 is fords mainstream supercar!

[MPx]

Immediately thought of the Beemer M1 (as Jussi did) - designed by our man as an Esprit variation wasn't it - how did you forget that one Robin?

Maybe some distance from my definition of a supercar...but you could consider the Lancia Stratos or even the Citroen Maserati? Lots of others have supercar performance (Audi RS BMW M etc) but not with the exotic design that must be an essential part of the definition....

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

M1 leaves me as cold as all the other German cars - that Merc GT1 (or whatever) wasn't a production car so can't count! (and I still don't even like it! ) Was that Alfa a production car? It certainly has the looks for the Dino era.

Saleen are definitely NOT a mainstream manufacturer! Neither are Maserati!

Paul - err I think you've got this backwards! I'm not trying to find a mainstream supercar for the masses. My hypothesis is that Ford are the only mainstream MANUFACTURER who have actually managed to produce a truly desirable, - UNQUESTIONABLE supercar.

Remember, it HAS to be a TRUE supercar (one that peope don't argue whether it is or isnt - if you have to argue its case then it inherently ISNT!) - it HAS to have been in production and it HAS to be from a mainstream manufacturer!

Once again Jon and I collide head on - I don't feel like either the Corvette or Viper are remotely 'exclusive' or have the "ooh-ahh" factor. The Viper comes the closest of the two but both are still just muscle cars like TVRs. They're all bloody fast but definitely aren't in the same breath as a Ferrari or a Lambo or a Zonda or... etc etc etc They don't have the styling or the cache and suffer from the... "Mine's a Dodge!" factor Along with two dozen crappy road cars!

The XJ220 definitely IS a supercar - the question I was asking is whether Jaguar constitute a 'mainstream' manufacturer like Toyota, GM, Renault etc etc?

That (g)audi - no way, no how, never! Mainstream manufacturer, yes but just no 'cool' in their name as it's one that is usually followed by "TT"

The Lancia Stratos is a possible contender... The Citroen?!?! - Now way! It's awful! lol ...and I've seen a minty one up close and it still looks like a horrible 70's Citroen! heh

The BMW M5, unlimited, will do 200+mph but there's no b100dy way on earth it's a supercar! It's a hideous, house brick on wheels with a small nuclear powerstation to compensate for that fact!

The NSX is close and definitely a point I knew people would argue over but it will always, ALWAYS, no matter what... be just a f-ing Honda! (once again - sorry Tony )

It's the same reason why the Supra and 300ZX will never be true supercars "I drive a ..." "Toyota" / "Nissan" It doesn't mean they're not fast and it doesn't mean they don't look good but they're not supercars.

My point being:

The Ford GT is definitely considered by pretty much every one to be a true supercar yet it DOESN'T suffer from the "Its just a Ford" pitfall that the Honda, Nissan and Toyota do!

The only reason I can come up with is because of the legendary status afforded the GT40 from its Le Mans winning history?

[Paul C]

it HAS to have been in production and it HAS to be from a mainstream manufacturer!

Was the GT40 then?

For example the VX220 assembeld by hand outside of the vauxhall factory by Lotus,

then badged up and sold as a Vauxhall, is this really from a mainstream manufacturer?

(because you would not say the Elise is, would you?)

As i said before, the GT40 is superb, but about as mainstream as a Formula ford.

The NSX is close and definitely a point I knew people would argue over but it will always,

ALWAYS, no matter what... be just a f-ing Honda! (once again - sorry Tony )

The Ford GT is definitely considered by pretty much every one to be a true supercar yet

it DOESN'T suffer from the "Its just a Ford" pitfall that the Honda, Nissan and Toyota do!

I don't see any difference though mate...

As although the ALWAYS and the DOESN'T are indeed in very

BIG letters, neither sentence is any more valid than the other

unless you accept them as given fact.

Eg:

The Potato is close and definitely a point I knew people would argue

over but it will always, ALWAYS, no matter what... be just a f-ing Potato!

The Parsnip is definitely considered by pretty much every one to be a true vegetable,

yet it DOESN'T suffer from the "Its just a Parsnip" pitfall that onions, leeks and carrots do.

[jeff_hooper]

Lotus Esprit V8, On the budget, is an amazing result.... a serious supercar competitor. But seriously flawed, reliability wise...

Supercar wise, The Esprit V8 is a nice try......

As far as the serious usable roadcar supercar argument is concerned, Ferrari, Ferrari, Ferrari....?

I can't see an real world competitors that get close.... (Porsche's are too easily girlie's cars!).

Jeff

[Jonathan]

As I say depends on what you call a supercar - done before, everyone has their own ideas so you can twist an argument like this to bend to any direction to suit your point.

Yeah - Ford GT, sorted

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

Paul - Are you on drugs?!

Jon - yes indeed you have a valid point as to what you define as a supercar... but there are certain cars about which their supercar status is very much in question. The mere fact that the NSX, Corvette and Viper are indeed disputed as to their supercar status takes them out of the bracket imo. I doubt there are even one tenth of the people who would question the GT as a supercar that would question the NSX, Corvette, Viper.

Jon, part of my point is that despite produced by Ford, the GT isn't disputed or dismissed as "Just a Ford" yet all three of those are by many. (I think that's also vaguely answering your rather LSD addled point Paul! )

Jeff I think you have misunderstood! I'm not searching for a useable everyday car at all... The question is whether any "mainstream manufacturers (along the lines of Vauxhall, Renault, Toyota etc etc etc) have actually produced an undisputed, truly desirable supercar OTHER than the Ford GT / 40?"

The XJ220 could well be another one - but there it depends on how one defines a mainstream manufacturer? I have no answer for this when it comes to Jaguar... They're a huge company who have made zillions of cars yet still retain genuine prestige. I could see them classed on either side of the fence.

Is the M1 really a supercar? Can ANY car made by BMW be classed as a supercar - like the Audi? Purely by virute of being made by BMW or Audi! - YET the Ford produced GT doesn't have ANY of that dispute going on at all. In fairness to the McMerc (as much as I hate it) it has to be included but even then imho it's PURELY because of the McLaren association!

So there are (potentially):

Ford GT

XJ220 (but are Jaguar Mainstream?)

SLR (but only because of McLaren! )

[Mark Blanchard]

IMO the GT40 is the greatest Supercars of all.

Above is the Mk I before Shelby got his hands on it. The Mk II was the success, which won the 1966 Le Mans (partly because it was running a 7.0L Ford Galaxy push rod engine, which was crude and old, but a powerful and reliable unit).