2nd injectors

[ErnieHillard]

Hi everyone!! Ben looking threw all the post and getting some great info. I have a 93 SE. My problem started back in the summer, while driving at 70mph on a HWY the motor started bogging down and missing. I pulled out of 5th gear down to 3rd and pushed the pedal down built boost fin and motor cleaned up and ran fine. Didn't thing much about it. Later while driving again the problem started again but didn't seem to clean up. I changed fuel filter, checked all vacuum lines, air filter, and changed plugs. Next time i tried to drive it 2 miles to work it had fouled the plugs before i got to work. Plugs are smut black fouled with fuel. So i got a new MAP sensor, and new plugs. No change. During this I have found that in open loop the car runs like a dream, but when it goes into closed loop and you build some boost it starts missing and fouling the plugs. So i unplugged the 2nd injectors and drone it around. Runs like a dream, I was careful not to let IT build a lot of boost just a little here and their. When it would make boost the Check Engine light comes on. So i plug one of the injectors back in and drive it the same way and it runs like a dream. Plug the 2nd injector back in and it misses and sputters as soon as you build boost. So i thought the #2 injector is bad, but i ran the test again with only the #2 plugged in and it ran fine. It runs fine(smooth but low on power) with one of the injectors hooked up. Where should i look to fix this problem????

Ernie

[Paul93Lotus]

Have you checked your fuel pressure yet....may be that your fuel pump is dying (and have been known to go out). You can tap in at the shrader line at the end of the fuel rail. Ideally it would be nice if you could monitor it while under load.

Did you check the code for the check engine light? May be a little heplful, though it more than likely is relate to the disconnecting of one of the secondary injectors.

This is really a situation where a freescan data log would really help. That software is a must if you plan on keeping your car long term. Possibly having the secondaries cleaned could help...maybe one is clogged...but sounds more like a flow problem from the pump. Another possibility is your oxygen sensor may be dying / dead. TPS could have a dead spot in the upper range near full throttle.

Edited November 21, 2006 by Kimbers

[ErnieHillard]

i have freescan, but it locks up when im driving. i think its freescan2.07

[Dermot]

i have freescan, but it locks up when im driving. i think its freescan2.07

Freescan 2.1 is available for free download from

http://andywhittaker.com/files/freescan_210.exe

It is not a siginificant upgrade over 2.07 just fixes a few comm issues with some laptops.

The ECU is doing nothing different on the road to just sitting in your garage. People often experience some drop outs where the comms freeeze and then start up again and often it you are doing a very long log it can freeze.

My advice is to turn off as much communications stuff on you laptop as you can like ethernet, wireless etc.. Set the data interval to 100 msec and keep the window open that shows the data flow.

Dermot

[ErnieHillard]

Freescan 2.1 is available for free download from

http://andywhittaker.com/files/freescan_210.exe

It is not a siginificant upgrade over 2.07 just fixes a few comm issues with some laptops.

The ECU is doing nothing different on the road to just sitting in your garage. People often experience some drop outs where the comms freeeze and then start up again and often it you are doing a very long log it can freeze.

My advice is to turn off as much communications stuff on you laptop as you can like ethernet, wireless etc.. Set the data interval to 100 msec and keep the window open that shows the data flow.

Dermot

thanks for the info, ill try it. Im trying to set it up where i can take it to a rear wheel dyno this weekind to check some outher stuff.

Ernie

[fightingtorque]

Too much fuel rather than too little? MAP sensor/ TPS/ Temp etc.

Against my better suggestion the blokes in the garage once spent about an hour trying to fix what they convinced themselves was a blocked fuel line on my chinese car. No fuel they said. Despite the fact that lambda meter was off the scale and you could smell it everywhere, ran ok from cold but spluttered and died once it got warm.

Eventually I persuaded them to hook up the diagnostics unit. They also agreed that minus 40 water temperature seemed unlikely in shanghai in august.

Probably not temp sensor in your case as that would presumably effect the primaries? But as was said above, reading what the ecu is seeing using freescan or similar should give some answers.

[Vulcan Grey]

Hi everyone!! Ben looking threw all the post and getting some great info. I have a 93 SE. My problem started back in the summer, while driving at 70mph on a HWY the motor started bogging down and missing. I pulled out of 5th gear down to 3rd and pushed the pedal down built boost fin and motor cleaned up and ran fine. Didn't thing much about it. Later while driving again the problem started again but didn't seem to clean up. I changed fuel filter, checked all vacuum lines, air filter, and changed plugs. Next time i tried to drive it 2 miles to work it had fouled the plugs before i got to work. Plugs are smut black fouled with fuel. So i got a new MAP sensor, and new plugs. No change. During this I have found that in open loop the car runs like a dream, but when it goes into closed loop and you build some boost it starts missing and fouling the plugs. So i unplugged the 2nd injectors and drone it around. Runs like a dream, I was careful not to let IT build a lot of boost just a little here and their. When it would make boost the Check Engine light comes on. So i plug one of the injectors back in and drive it the same way and it runs like a dream. Plug the 2nd injector back in and it misses and sputters as soon as you build boost. So i thought the #2 injector is bad, but i ran the test again with only the #2 plugged in and it ran fine. It runs fine(smooth but low on power) with one of the injectors hooked up. Where should i look to fix this problem????

Ernie

I'd guess bad spark plug wires... pretty positive. Possibly a coil or both, but much less likely than the plug wires.

With less fuel there is enough spark, but as soon as the secondaries start dumping fuel the weak spark isn't enough. By unplugging a secondary, you effectively disable the secondary injector circuit, maening 1 is the same as none.

[ErnieHillard]

I'd guess bad spark plug wires... pretty positive. Possibly a coil or both, but much less likely than the plug wires.

With less fuel there is enough spark, but as soon as the secondaries start dumping fuel the weak spark isn't enough. By unplugging a secondary, you effectively disable the secondary injector circuit, maening 1 is the same as none.

I took the car out this morning and recorded free-scan. Is looks like it is going rich (too muck fuel) A/F goes from 13 at 3000 rpm to 9 at 6200 - 6500 rpm. The boost gage in the dash goes 1.125 bar to 1.250 bar at 100% TPS. But the dash on free-scan looks close to 2 bars at 100% tps. I'm thinking MAP, 02, or something in the ecu. Dude i got the car from said he had the program in ecu updated to a 94 se or something like that to make 330HP at 1 bar of boost. I'm not sure about this, maybe some one knows if this can be dun. Here is some of my free-scan runs. I do not see the atached file can some one tell me if it worked, if not how do i post the file.

Ernie

Edited November 23, 2006 by ErnieHillard

[Vulcan Grey]

I took the car out this morning and recorded free-scan. Is looks like it is going rich (too muck fuel) A/F goes from 13 at 3000 rpm to 9 at 6200 - 6500 rpm. The boost gage in the dash goes 1.125 bar to 1.250 bar at 100% TPS. But the dash on free-scan looks close to 2 bars at 100% tps. I'm thinking MAP, 02, or something in the ecu. Dude i got the car from said he had the program in ecu updated to a 94 se or something like that to make 330HP at 1 bar of boost. I'm not sure about this, maybe some one knows if this can be dun. Here is some of my free-scan runs. I do not see the atached file can some one tell me if it worked, if not how do i post the file.

Ernie

too much fuel also = not enough spark... BTW

2+bar is normal in freescan. The Baro reading + fudge factor + sensor innacuracy + boost = MAP in freescan.

[Dermot]

Ernie,

Have you got Freescan manual

http://www.esprit4sale.co.uk/Sale/pages/Diagnostics.html

You can send me the logfile.

dermot.ohare@chem.ox.ac.uk

[ErnieHillard]

Ernie,

Have you got Freescan manual

http://www.esprit4sale.co.uk/Sale/pages/Diagnostics.html

You can send me the logfile.

dermot.ohare@chem.ox.ac.uk

Thanks for the reply!! Email has been sent. I don't think its the second injectors, I think its in the fuel pres. regulator, map, or 02. Vulcan Grey said could be week ignition, spark looks good spinning motor over. Is their a way to check it differently?

Ernie

[Vulcan Grey]

Thanks for the reply!! Email has been sent. I don't think its the second injectors, I think its in the fuel pres. regulator, map, or 02. Vulcan Grey said could be week ignition, spark looks good spinning motor over. Is their a way to check it differently?

Ernie

I've seen a bad MAP sensor (actually it was s 3bar sensor put in) that allowed the car to idle fine, but wouldn't drive with any engine load at all. Probably similar to a bad one. You should be able to verify function of the regulator with a multimeter and a pressure source (brake bleeding hand pump)

see your EMH manual for the procedure (though I doubt the MAP is the problem). You should make sure the MAP sensor is correctly connected to the manifold though.

Not sure how the pressure reg would allow too much gas at higher load and rpm.

Bad plug wires will usually idle ok, but any load will cause the engine sptter and choke on the unburnt fuel. It can be intermittent too.

You can measure the resistance of the plug wires, if the Ohm # is high, they are bad. You should check to see if one or all of the cylinders are firing correctly (and the same)

1)with engine running, disconnect the electrical connector on the IAC.

2) remove one spark plug wire at a time, and hold the end near the block to dissipate the spark.

each time you remove one of the plug wires, the engine rpm should drop the same amount. This will tell you if some cylinders are running differently than the others. Remember that cylinders 1&4, and 2&3 are on the same coil and injector driver circuit. SO a problem at the coil or injector driver circuit will cause both to fail the same way.

If one or more cylinders doesn't cause the rpm to drop, then that cylinder is not running correctly.

You should next verify spark for that cylinder, make sure to hold the plug against the block.

If all spark checks out, you can verify fuel from the injectors.

I usually unbolt the intercooler and lay it back (still connected to the coolant) then unbolt the rail, and pull it up with all fuel injectors attached. I lay some paper towels under the rail, and turn the car over to see if each injector leaves a wet spot. If the car runs without the primary injectors than you have leaking secondaries.

if all injectors are firing, but one or more of the cylinders aren't running correctly, then look at your coils or plug wires.

post your results here.

and yes there is such a thing as a 330hp chip for these cars. But it should result in too much fuel, usually run too lean, unless your turbo isn't pushing enough air...

Edited November 24, 2006 by Vulcan Grey

[ErnieHillard]

I will check the plug wires tomorrow, but I'm not sure if this is the problem. The car runs great in open loop with no misses or any trouble. Under a full load it never misses or sputters, only when you let off and bring the car back to a steady speed. It feels like older cars did with carbs when the needle and seats would stick open and flood the motor. After seeing the freescan file you can see the motor goes full rich and fouls the plugs. Drive it really easy back to the shop and it starts to clean the electrode and the top of the porcelain;in back off. With a plug wire off and a plug in it laying on the intercooler start it up and you have a steady miss, but the fire on the plug is bright blue not red and week. But i have seen coils that ran fine until they get a little hot and start to get week (usually right before they die)

I went to your web site last night and read about the rebuild , was very impressed and liked the video's too.

Ernie

Edited November 25, 2006 by ErnieHillard

[ErnieHillard]

I will check the plug wires tomorrow, but I'm not sure if this is the problem. The car runs great in open loop with no misses or any trouble. Under a full load it never misses or sputters, only when you let off and bring the car back to a steady speed. It feels like older cars did with carbs when the needle and seats would stick open and flood the motor. After seeing the freescan file you can see the motor goes full rich and fouls the plugs. Drive it really easy back to the shop and it starts to clean the electrode and the top of the porcelain;in back off. With a plug wire off and a plug in it laying on the intercooler start it up and you have a steady miss, but the fire on the plug is bright blue not red and week. But i have seen coils that ran fine until they get a little hot and start to get week (usually right before they die)

I went to your web site last night and read about the rebuild , was very impressed and liked the video's too.

Ernie

Got the esprit out today checking everything over, found the alternator belt was loose. I fixed it put a new set of plugs in the car and went for a ride. Now when the car starts acting up the check engine light comes on, but i cant get freescan to work as long as the light it on. How can i fix this or how do you read the error codes with out freescan?

Ernie

[ErnieHillard]

Got the esprit out today checking everything over, found the alternator belt was loose. I fixed it put a new set of plugs in the car and went for a ride. Now when the car starts acting up the check engine light comes on, but i cant get freescan to work as long as the light it on. How can i fix this or how do you read the error codes with out freescan?

Ernie

Here is another up date. Anyone feel free to step in and help! I installed new MAP sensor, and 02 sensor today with no luck. I ordered the manual for freescan earlier today maybe this will help.

Exhaust is black smut ted up spark plugs are black smut ted up, and i seem to be getting black smoke out of the exhaust when it is acting up.

Ernie

Edited November 27, 2006 by ErnieHillard

[Paul93Lotus]

Here is another up date. Anyone feel free to step in and help! I installed new MAP sensor, and 02 sensor today with no luck. I ordered the manual for freescan earlier today maybe this will help.

Exhaust is black smut ted up spark plugs are black smut ted up, and i seem to be getting black smoke out of the exhaust when it is acting up.

Ernie

You should be able to pull the codes by connecting 2 connections with a piece of wire on the diagnostic port. Not exactly sure without the manual in front of me(maybe on LEW or the Esprit Fact File). Connect the 2 connections and then turn the key to run. The check engine light will then flash the trouble code. If this won't work then I would suspect a bad ECU.