Is the 400 too expensive?

[CocoPops]

Quite a question eh? But is the 400 too expensive?

Reason I ask, is that for me it is and I think this is demonstrated by what's for sale currently.

There are more and more dealer cars being listed, yet no cheaper than £72,500.

This is some £20k+ above late Evora S cars.

I predict we'll see prices closer to £65k very soon after Christmas.

[Colin G]

I can't help but notice that the ones in the various classifieds don't seem to be selling, and having driven one it has to be something other than how good a car they are, so I'm thinking for many prospective buyers it must be a yes. Asked myself the question you've hit on after the test drive, are they worth paying £20-30k more than a late original? For me it was a no, but that's not to say I didn't like it. Will be way down the line before I see myself in one I'd say.

[Bibs]

The ones in the classifieds currently are often demos and most people would be speccing their own cars, which is why it appears they're not moving.

[CocoPops]

No, Murray's have had the Yellow one (unregistered) for a month and a bit now? and they've just added 2 more un-registered ones.

[Kalli]

I'm of split mind on this. 

Part of me disagrees, purely because we are talking about a more 'together' car. Lessons of the past learnt, increase in bhp, and so on. 

But then you have the raise the question - should we be paying for someone elses learnt lessons and quality improvements on a car that should have already been 'together' for the original Evora price tag? Obviously there is a slight element of inflation, but hey...20k is a substantial whack and the Lotus market is a relatively loyal consumer base.

On the basic level, the Evora 276/350 (tm) are fantastic cars - the Evora 400 should be worth more and is that much improved. But i'll be honest - I wouldn't pay an extra 20k over what I have - and even more so, given the 400 Roadster will no doubt cost more. 

But I also can't see Lotus dropping the price. A retreating Army shows its first sign of weakness by retreating. 

Edited November 2, 2015 by Kalli

[Colin G]

It was the brand new orange one at Oakmere that had my eye, still for sale after a fair while too. I hope sales pick up for Lotus and the car does very well for them though, are there any figures kicking around for how many they've actually shifted so far?

[CocoPops]

If the Yellow one was on 50/50 and I could use my NA as the 50% then I'd jump tomorrow.

I was just a day too late in making the same swap for the last Chrome Orange car at Snows.

However, my NA+£10k+£39k in 2yrs (how the 50/50 would pan out) just isn't viable in my eyes.

[Kalli]

Ouch. Thats a painful number Lee when you stack it all up. 

My plan is to wait for a 400 Roadster to come out, wait a year and put the current Evora in for a trade on a divorcee's. Assuming a 20k trade in by that point, that could mean a convertible Evora for 40k cash  I only need a few more bank heists and then i'm there!

Seriously though (not that the last bit wasn't serious) it could be many are waiting for the Roadster - I for one certainly am. I think they released the Roadster news a bit too early. 

[The Pits]

Equally the old stock wouldn't sell if the full price was being asked. Once they're gone, theyr'e gone and then it's Evora 400 or nothing for those wanting to buy new. No way the prices are coming down. It's not overpriced compared to the Porsche 911, especially once you start adding options and the Nissan GTR is quite pricey now too. Of the three cars the Evora definitely does some things the best, in particular ride, handling and steering but in outright performance terms the GTR is undisputed at this price level. The Porsche the most prestigious and iconic. I'd take the Evora as I don't like the feel of rear engined cars - odd when driving slowly, un-nerving when driving fast and I simply couldn't pay so much for any car with electric steering either. I really rate the GTR as a piece of engineering but paddles-only and clunky styling means the Evora 400 is the most desirable for me.

However clearly most people just buy a 911 like most people do. Default high-end sports car, swanky dealers, prestigious badge, safe choice. Yes the Evora 400 is expensive but it's also a very special car to drive and be in. Such things rarely come cheap. 

[Kalli]

The thing to keep in mind, is that all of us on here are Lotus mad. We're set on Lotus and we couldn't do without. However when you approach someone and say 'Lotus Evora, Nissan GTR, or Porsche 911' you can guess what the answer will be. To get the name through the other two, you need to vary something - the Evora doesn't have more power, nor does it have more 'badge'. So given there's not much else to vary on, you need to vary it on price. The Evora needs to get on the radar of the prospective buyer, and matching price with the GTR or 911 doesn't do that - publicity does. And the best publicity is value for money. 

 

[Bibs]

But the GTR weighs 2 tonnes! 

[Kalli]

And to emphasise - i'm not saying the 400 isn't worth its current price. But i'f you're looking at fishing....Lotus are sat there with a 50 year old wooden rod claiming 'old school' is just as good as new school and trying to keep up with the lads using carbon fibre fishing rods. Folks don't give a damn about hearsay. They want to hear about value - and to the lads on the street and in the meets - Porsche 911 / Nissan GTR > Lotus Evora. The only thing that will vary that will be the rarity of the Evora and therefore the publicity. By keeping the Evora 'rare', it'll continue to be the hidden gem and overlooked by the unschooled in the ways of Lotus. And I say that as a Lotus fanboy ....

[CocoPops]

Or do what tech companies do... get "seed devices" out there.

Take the hit on the first cars, get them out in the wild rather than sat on forecourts. People see them on the road and think, oooh whats that, I might go look.

Use the people passionate about the brand (us) to help sell the car, rather than debating on a forum about how overpriced it is, rather than if it's over priced  

[The Pits]

The Evora has more feel and communication than its competitors - ultimately far greater contributors to driving pleasure than power or badge. This is something that becomes immediately apparent on test drives where the conversion rate is enormously high. I believe Lotus claim a figure of over 30%. Lotus don't need to drop the price, there's no point in giving the cars away. Easier said than done but what they really need to do is get some more bums on seats. I don't believe that dropping the price would achieve that. It would send out a signal that the car isn't selling and more likely put some people off.

[Kalli]

Just now, CocoPops said:

Or do what tech companies do... get "seed devices" out there.

Take the hit on the first cars, get them out in the wild rather than sat on forecourts. People see them on the road and think, oooh whats that, I might go look.

Use the people passionate about the brand (us) to help sell the car, rather than debating on a forum about how overpriced it is, rather than if it's over priced  

Exactly my view. With a company as small as Lotus (however prestigious) it needs 'Pilot Cars'. The kind that get out on the roads, where folks on the motorway in their Porsche 911's look at and think...'god - he's stealing all the looks. I want that.' Currently they're far and few between. The fact people still 'look' at my Evora says something. Mine alone is almost 6 years old, yet still attracts more looks than any porsche i've been stuck in a jam with. Heck, how many times have week been asked 'Is that a new Lotus model?' 

[Kalli]

2 minutes ago, The Pits said:

The Evora has more feel and communication than its competitors - ultimately far greater contributors to driving pleasure than power or badge. This is something that becomes immediately apparent on test drives where the conversion rate is enormously high. I believe Lotus claim a figure of over 30%. Lotus don't need to drop the price, there's no point in giving the cars away. Easier said than done but what they really need to do is get some more bums on seats. I don't believe that dropping the price would achieve that. It would send out a signal that the car isn't selling and more likely put some people off.

I agree about putting people off now - it shows the signs of a retreat. The tactic should have been done of 'make the basic model just enough to meet costs, and make the extras fuel the profits' or similar. The problem is as you say - bums on seats. But when someone googles the price range, unless they're educated or even better - lotus experienced - they won't look at the Evora no matter what us fanboys say. We're the same as the Porsche guys saying 'the 911 rules all'. We're biased. What we need are conversions, and that can't happen by pricing ourselves in the big boy league without mass evidence. We need to price ourselves in the juniors, get the subscribers, and then slowly increase. What Lotus have done is gone 'our car is fantastic (true) and therefore deserve this price tag (true). But no one will believe unless it gets the publicity. And a few car magazines won't do that. It's eye candy that does the magic. 

[99Problems]

Can't speak to the UK, but in the US, the Evora 400 I just put a deposit on, with every option selected except for cruise control (never used it on any car I've ever owned to date) comes to just shy of 104K.  Spec'ing either a 911S or a Nissan GTR with anything CLOSE to how the Evora comes brings the price way above 104K.  Try north of 120K for the Porsche, and well above 110K for the GTR.

Agreed that those that are buying the default "nice sports car" will buy the Porsche, but that doesn't make the Evora over priced, or needing to sell for a discount to get market penetration.  Lotus isn't intending to, and can't support from a manufacturing standpoint, 500 cars a month anyway.  I'm saying this as someone who is not a life long Lotus fan, but rather a fan of good driver's cars that are "special" (read Rare in this case I suppose).

To compare to watches, the Porsche is a Rolex (default Nice Watch for people that aren't into watches) and the Lotus is a Zenith, or a Panerai, or a Bremont if we want to stay English .  While most will opt for Rolex, those in the know will seek out a smaller producer of fine watch making, and those companies don't have to move the same amount of kit as the Rolex or Porsche of the world at a similar price point.

 

[Kalli]

Good comparison Patrick. Completely agree in regards to the comparison and interesting to see the price difference. However the truth is that it does need more penetration to get 'into the markets with a larger wedge. At the moment it's a tooth pick and people are stumbling upon it. What we need is a hammer (price) to hit it right into that cranny.

Interesting you say about getting all except Cruise Control - I always make use of mine  A personal suggestion is to opt for it if you still can. Whatever it'll cost you will probably add a fair bit in regards to resale value. Keep in mind how many cars come with cruise control as default now - the new age driver will be a lazy one, and will need it when you come to sell

When does your US Evora arrive? 

[99Problems]

You make a fair point.  I have time to add it, since I asked for a Feb build (late march delivery?).  I'm going to be traveling a fair bit in Jan/Feb, so didn't want to take delivery of the car and have it sit for the better part of 2 months.  It already feels like a long wait, and the order has only been in for a couple weeks!

And I do see your point of using price as a differentiation, but I'd rather Lotus spend some more $$$ on getting more marketing out there and a few more reviews to have it enter the casual sports car fan psyche, since they really do have a product that sells itself at that price point once seen/driven.  Then again, the car isn't even available in the US at this stage, so maybe that is coming.  I just happened to have stumbled upon it back in August from the Xcar review.

[Colin G]

The increase in average speed cameras in this country makes cruise on any car a godsend in my opinion!

[Danelaw]

The Evora 400 is too expensive for me to order new, but that doesn't mean it is too expensive. Where else can you get a 2+2 mid-engined super car?

The sad thing is that this car with no other changes but a different brand badge would cost much more. Imagine the price if this car had an Aston Martin, Bugatti, McLaren or Lamborghini badge! The problem is the marketing and brand perception with many people purchasing in this price bracket being brand snobs - which is quite understandable but unfortunate.

In short the Evora is a bargain car for enthusiasts who save up, appreciate handling and want an extra two seats.

[Kalli]

2 minutes ago, 99Problems said:

You make a fair point.  I have time to add it, since I asked for a Feb build (late march delivery?).  I'm going to be traveling a fair bit in Jan/Feb, so didn't want to take delivery of the car and have it sit for the better part of 2 months.  It already feels like a long wait, and the order has only been in for a couple weeks!

And I do see your point of using price as a differentiation, but I'd rather Lotus spend some more $$$ on getting more marketing out there and a few more reviews to have it enter the casual sports car fan psyche, since they really do have a product that sells itself at that price point once seen/driven.  Then again, the car isn't even available in the US at this stage, so maybe that is coming.  I just happened to have stumbled upon it back in August from the Xcar review.

Patrick - if you can, definitely grab it. I'll confess I have no knowledge of US roads - but if they share anything with UK roads, as Colin G says, average speed cameras are becoming all the rage. That means even more time sticking at 60kph for however long and the newer driver won't be skilled enough with the right foot to manage. Not that I'm being an old man (at 27 years!)....

True enough. Maybe it's a combination of poor marketing and poor strategy. I can't complain - I enjoy being a rare car driver! I've not had a 'spot' on these forums for a couple of months!!! But the more money that goes into Lotus, the more likely it is that my key won't resemble a 13 year old Ford Focus ignition key  

[The Pits]

Conversions among the infidels won't really happen while the press continues to fuel the Porsche hype and make people feel stupid for considering anything else. Ecoty blah blah blah. Even if you don't like it on the test drive you're forced to think it must be awesome because that's all anyone is ever allowed to think!

They should do free Evora 400 cab rides home for city slickers, get the cars seen about and experienced. But a more cost effective thing would be to crack on with the GT4-slaying chargecooled Exige. Stuff trying to match Porsche, Lotus need to make GT4 owners dread the sight of an Exige in their rear view mirror on trackdays. I'd suggest they go a bit nuts with the next Exige, crank the thing right up. That will create a lot of noise, ruffle some feathers. Just as Nissan did with the GTR. It didn't try and compete with the 911, it knocked it into next week with 911 Turbo performance for Carrera money. It made trying one almost compulsory. Of course Porsche still outsold Nissan heavily but the GTR became the badboy. The more it got up Porsche's nose the more stuffy they looked and the more appealing Nissan became. Suddenly everyone stopped thinking 'over priced Datsun' and started thinking 'establishment rocking rice burner legend'. Nissan didn't hold back. If Lotus extract as much supercar-humbling performance from the Exige as possible they will make the headlines, melt the internet, drive traffic to the dealers. For every 3 people that come and test drive an Exige, one will have a go in an Evora 400 and realise that it's actually just what they were looking for. I really think a killer Exige will sell more Evoras.

[Kalli]

1 minute ago, Danelaw said:

The Evora 400 is too expensive for me to order new, but that doesn't mean it is too expensive. Where else can you get a 2+2 mid-engined super car?

The sad thing is that this car with no other changes but a different brand badge would cost much more. Imagine the price if this car had an Aston Martin, Bugatti, McLaren or Lamborghini badge! The problem is the marketing and brand perception with many people purchasing in this price bracket being brand snobs - which is quite understandable but unfortunate.

In short the Evora is a bargain car for enthusiasts who save up, appreciate handling and want an extra two seats.

Supercar is pushing it. There are hatchbacks that can achieve similar figures. A sleek body and good handling doesn't qualify as supercar nowadays, regardless of the prestige. Point taken on badge, but again - Lotus commands it's own price tag. Take a look at the VX220 Turbo - as much power as the Exile, similar handling, and cheaper parts (ignoring the 1k headlights and replacement clams!). But substantially cheaper second hand. You could buy a Stage 4 VX220 Turbo for the same price as a 'relatively decent' Elise S2. 

 

Brand snobbery will always exist. What Lotus need is the wedge into the market. They need to break past the 'we're on our deathbed and living off the Elise' appearance, and get back into the game. Granted, to us Lotus owners we know that isn't the case. But to the wider world...why buy a Lotus? What brings you into the Lotus market? 

Answer? Divorce, weekend car, project car, youth, experience. All of those are (to an extent!) an element of luck, except the last. And those are the die-hards - you can't live on diehards.

 

Also - apologies for any spamming/dominating. Having a beer evening, and my fingers are mistaking it for red bull. 

[CocoPops]

@Kalli