Esprit Turbo project car - part3 - the further continuation

[Lotusfab]

20 minutes ago, The Pits said:

Never noticed Roger's footwear in that scene before, I was always staring at the car in awe of what happens to that paint in the snow. How on earth did he drive it with moonboots on?! It's marginal in the pedal box on early Turbos with Puma Speedcats! 

I used to have moon boots and there no way you could drive an Esprit in them!

[CHANGES]

1 hour ago, Andyww said:

Personally I prefer Fabians route.

Galvanising oxidises rapidly and while its a very good protection method, it does this at the expense of looks. The oxide coating then gets oil on it and then you would be back to the condition of the pre-restored chassis after a few years. 

Also the distortion Fabian mentioned is real, Lotus had to re-jig the chassis after galvanising. 

 

Andy, there is an awful lot of misinformation out there from people who have an opinion rather than a qualification..  The chassis were galvanized to completely protect from corrosion, inside and out.. Not for cosmetic reasons.   Galvanizing does not oxidise rapidly if correctly done..  What you refer to is white rust oxide , this forms on newly galvanized work that has undergone a nearly 100% zinc coating, and then left to the elements, or stored incorrectly.  The fact is when the full process is done properly the final dip is a chromate passivation   .This passivation coating provides a protection to the zinc to give the stable oxides time to form on the surface naturally as part of the process.   Also the galvanizing processes today have moved on and the zinc coat has other elements improving the quality from days gone by..        I think it is unfair to say that oil and dirt getting on the zinc surface over a few years will make the restoration pointless ..  This  is not at all the case . The chassis i have re-galvanized are showing a breakdown in the protection provided by the zinc thickness or corrosion points  caused by poorly fitted component or damage.   If these chassis gets oily and dirty at a later stage it will have no effect on the protection provided..  It would take the same amount of time and conditions for it to return to the pre-restored state , in fact with the newer coating processes even longer..  For example the one i have just featured in another thread in this section was 36 years old.. I would expect it to be at least 40 years or more if treated the same , before it goes back to the pre-restored condition., regardless of how oily and dirty it gets .... Its about longevity not looks... 

As for distortion,  again there are more myths than facts banded about..  Yes if the process is done to fast or mishandled or hung incorrect then distortion can occur.. A jigging procedure/dimensional check, post dipping is standard on all chassis ... it does not mean they are in need of correction work just clarification of specification compliance.   If a tweak or two is needed then that's fine , nothing wrong in that if done by a suitably experienced engineer..    The real truth of the matter is when done carefully they do not flex...  The chassis done this weak was absolutely spot on , one of the straightest i have seen  pre re-galvanizing.  Post process it was still spot on . it did not move at all ..     As long as the re- galvanizing is done by quality reputable people then there should be no problems..    I honestly believe all the scare stories about this have been started by people who can not afford the process or have very little understanding on what is involved..   Its time the truth should be clarified and rumors put to bed...       

[Fridge]

TBF I was using a bit of comedic license in my reference to Moonboots. They look like the type of footwear my camera crews use in snow conditions. Workwear generally. 

 

[Fridge]

To reiterate @CHANGES comments regarding general restorations, even as a Lotus newbie, I have noticed a lot of what I call "bobbins" being bandied about by folk in forums and at club meetings. No disrespect to posters meant.

It happens with other car marques that I'm familiar. Only this week I tried to stop folk from going off on a tangent about S1s having 195/60/14 front tyres. The correct sizing, for the UK at least, is 205/60/14. Yet a myth exists that cars were also fitted with the 195 profile. Bobbins. One such car was fitted with such by Lotus. It's plain to see in the photos of the early red publicity car (not the prototype incidentally). Lotus obviously experimented with many combinations in the S1's development. Folk on here will know more about that probably. As far as I'm concerned that fact remains background information, and "noise".

I think it is very important when going to the level of detail in restorations that we see and hear about on this thread, that we try to filter out all the myths, fears and general rubbish spouted by folk who haven't any experience of detailed restorations. Restorations are very time consuming, and at times, stressful endeavours for all those undertaking them. The less "noise" out there the better. It just confuses matters, leads to wasted time, and worst, money and effort.

As a slight aside, I was talking to a stuntman colleague only on Friday about his friend who owns an Aston Martin. Turns out to be a very nice DB6 Volante. The owner had said to him there are only 2 places to go to have them restored. Utter $h1te. But this owner is an owner-driver only. Probably believing what she has been told. It's how this misinformation is propagated. BTW I worked as a corporate communications specialist as well as producer, so I know how information gets used, and abused for all sorts of purposes.

Keep it real folks!

20 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

I've adjusted it a bit. I believe it just has a cable tie to the other pipes.

Lovin' those oil pipes (lower) @Lotusfab where did you get them?

 

[Lotusfab]

They are Aeroquip racing hoses, made to measure for me by Think Automotive. 

I have a lot of Silicone pipes on order. I shall be replacing and improving the original system. The fan switch is the first thing to go. I'm using an in line sensor the same as Andy. So far the internal pipe sizes are 38mm, 16 mm and 32 mm.

[Lotusfab]

chasis

For me cost didn't come into it. I looked at galvanising in detail. I decided the added benefits of POR 15 outweighed the risk of a company, that has no experience of galvanising an Esprit chassis, destroying it for me and then making excuses. I didn't appreciate the amount of work involved with the POR 15 system. I would probably powder coat another, Although,  if Dave supervised it I might go down the galvanising route. The trouble for me would be I would have to check the chassis on a jig before and after by myself for my own piece of mind. Still it's done now and It looks good, which Im sure will be the case with the galvanised one too. The pictures of the galvanised chassis look awesome.👍🏻.

The purpose of this thread has always been to have a detailed reference for putting one of these things back together and getting all the info out. I can't stand people being secretive, although I can understand why certain business interests  over ride this. Anyhow this is how I did it I'm not saying there aren't better ways. At least I have given you a start point. There wasn't a lot on here before I i started the S1 thread and I don't believe such a highly detailed Turbo resto?

Some of you must like reading it as there are a lot of views, although it does go offf piste every now and then!

[Lotusfab]

[Lotusfab]

Bond fans might like to read this,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/roger-moore/index.html

[Fridge]

1 hour ago, Lotusfab said:

Bond fans might like to read this,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/roger-moore/index.html

Great find @Lotusfab even if it is in the Daily Fail.

Love reading this sort of stuff. Roger Moore was so self-deprecating. No airs and graces. His description of the Esprit S1 wasn't so complimentary though. Ha ha!

[Lotusfab]

38 minutes ago, Fridge said:

Great find @Lotusfab even if it is in the Daily Fail.

Love reading this sort of stuff. Roger Moore was so self-deprecating. No airs and graces. His description of the Esprit S1 wasn't so complimentary though. Ha ha!

Lotus used the public to test their new baby. If they had ironed the problems out before selling it their might have been a different history. Very difficult when as a small company you need the money to flow in.

[Andyww]

7 hours ago, Fridge said:

To reiterate @CHANGES comments regarding general restorations, even as a Lotus newbie, I have noticed a lot of what I call "bobbins" being bandied about by folk in forums and at club meetings. No disrespect to posters meant.

It happens with other car marques that I'm familiar.

 

You are right, car forums abound with incorrect advice. But this forum is much better than any other I have been involved with. There are many people on here who have been involved with Esprits for years and would not even think about taking their car to a garage. They have a collective wealth of experience. 

Fabian himself has done a first class resto on an Esprit before. Yours truly has done a concours-winning restoration on a Ferrari and a partial one on a concours-winning Esprit. 

The Esprit Facebook group is the main source of dis-information on Esprit rather than here. Over there they seem to enjoy posting pictures of their cars on recovery trailers for some unknown reason.

The information about the potential effects of galvanising came from people who were there at the time, when I bought my first Turbo Esprit in 1984. Pat Thomas of Kelvedon Motors installed one of the first laser alignment systems and he was finding the accuracy of the chassis was terrible, and he fed this back to the factory, who found the original assembly was fine and the galvanising process caused the errors and they had to re-jig each chassis.

Dave's information on the current improvements in the process is of course useful and important. It does not render incorrect the original statement that the factory back in the day had problems with it though.

[Fridge]

Always good to keep information current though @andyww for those of us who were pushing Corgi For Yours Eyes Only Turbos around in 1984. Things do move on.

Which incidentally brings me to Cortina d'Amprezzo which is featured on tommorow's stage of the Giro d'Italia. Live on Eurosport, with highlights on Quest, Freeview channel 37 at 7PM.

 

[CHANGES]

26 minutes ago, Andyww said:

The information about the potential effects of galvanising came from people who were there at the time, when I bought my first Turbo Esprit in 1984. Pat Thomas of Kelvedon Motors installed one of the first laser alignment systems and he was finding the accuracy of the chassis was terrible, and he fed this back to the factory, who found the original assembly was fine and the galvanising process caused the errors and they had to re-jig each chassis.

Dave's information on the current improvements in the process is of course useful and important. It does not render incorrect the original statement that the factory back in the day had problems with it though.

I am some what confused and don't want to pick But.... In my reply to your initial post (also quoted below)  I did state that if the chassis were dipped fast and incorrectly hung that the could distort... which would appear what happened 40 years ago. I also said jigging was effective in correcting any deformation , which is what happened to the distorted chassis the factory had to deal with.  None of this is relevant to the re-galvanizing process that goes on now... I am pleased to say  the industry has learn't a lot in 40 years.    Problems that occurred 40 years ago mainly through ignorance don't seem to be an issue now , but even if a slight distortion did appear then it can be jigged as was done on those original chassis....  So where is all the panic and misinformation coming from saying re-galvanizing is a No NO..    I have no issues with it and what went on 40 years ago is history, just that... Sod all to do with the process i have done..   

8 hours ago, CHANGES said:

  10 hours ago, Andyww said:

Personally I prefer Fabians route.

Galvanising oxidises rapidly and while its a very good protection method, it does this at the expense of looks. The oxide coating then gets oil on it and then you would be back to the condition of the pre-restored chassis after a few years. 

Also the distortion Fabian mentioned is real, Lotus had to re-jig the chassis after galvanising. 

 

Also in you first post you stated about the rapid oxidation etc etc...as your main concern  . But i do not hear anything about the factory having them back to correct any of this,  and they did not  do chromate passivation back then either..    The real facts of the matter are, there is absolutely no reason why you can not re-galvanize chassis back to original factory spec or better as the case is now.   By saying anything else is utter bo****ks  and belongs on that Facebook page you referred to..   This Forum prides itself with accuracy from its members and rumors should be exposed for what they are .   When any new process is introduced there will always be teething issues.. as was the case 40 years ago... They were overcome and improved on then so why the hell are people making an issue about it NOW..  !!!!!!  

I so sorry this issue has hijacked your thread Fabian . but maybe it was the best place to vent it as it has a relevance in full restorations as you are doing  ..  But i am afraid you can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink...  If anyone has anymore questions / opinions on this , they may be better  putting them on the thread I did on the subject...   not polluting Fabians any further..   Thanks for letting it run on your thread Fabian and keep up the good work , look forward to seeing the finished item ..

D   

[Barrykearley]

I bought a farm gate - brand new and galvanised - that was ten years ago. It’s been outside every day since then and still looks brand new.

processes have evolved a lot since the late 1970s - I’ve even got double glazing and central heating at home now

[Fridge]

You're lucky @Barrykearley I live in North Yorkshire. We've just got rid of our coal fires.

[Barrykearley]

That’s only cos you’s lots too tight @Fridge

[910Esprit]

33 minutes ago, Fridge said:

You're lucky @Barrykearley I live in North Yorkshire. We've just got rid of our coal fires.

But are you from Mancheser?  I'd never heard the term 'bobbins' until I worked here.

[Fridge]

1 hour ago, 910Esprit said:

But are you from Mancheser?  I'd never heard the term 'bobbins' until I worked here.

Wash yer mooth oot!

[Andyww]

4 hours ago, CHANGES said:

The real facts of the matter are, there is absolutely no reason why you can not re-galvanize chassis back to original factory spec or better as the case is now.   By saying anything else is utter bo****ks  and belongs on that Facebook page

Not sure why you have got the strop because nobody stated it wasnt possible to re-galvanise the chassis back to factory spec. The question is, is there a better alternative than galvanising.

[CHANGES]

5 hours ago, Andyww said:

not sure why you have got the strop because nobody stated it wasnt possible to re-galvanise the chassis back to factory spec. The question is, is there a better alternative than galvanising.

Andy , Just because you don't like the answer , you are reshaping your question to support your methodology  ..                                To recap.... I asked Fabian why he did not galvanize , to which he answered..    I was happy with that.. 

  You then stepped in stating ......                   ''Galvanising oxidises rapidly and while its a very good protection method, it does this at the expense of looks. The oxide coating then gets oil on it and then you would be back to the condition of the pre-restored chassis after a few years.  Also the distortion Fabian mentioned is real, Lotus had to re-jig the chassis after galvanising''.         To this statement I gave detailed reply on the points made , based on experience from working within the galvanizing and automotive industry, so owners fully understand what is being referred to. 

You went on to reply to Fridge,  referring to initial problems the factory had 40 years before , implying that there were still issues with the process.   To which I gave another qualified answer so owners fully understand that there is not an issue with galvanized chassis as thing stand today...  

So in reply to your last post..    The strop you refer to is just me making sure that misleading statements about oxidation and distortion are countered with a balanced point a view so people can make their own decisions based on fact not hypothesis .  In answer to you question ,   is there a better alternative than galvanising.   ....  Maybe...  But industry still uses it as the primary protection method against corrosion for metals exposed to the elements..   The system has been used for decades constantly evolving   New methods of protection using paints like POR15  and ZINGA have come on leaps and bounds . They still fall well short of what galvanizing provides,  but as a cheap alternative they have a place..   So alternative ''yes'' ,  Better , ''not yet''    

[Barrykearley]

My farm gate still looks nice this morning - I’ve just double checked and it’s as straight as can be

[Lotusfab]

You better get that gate on a jig Barry, just to be sure! 😀😀😀😀

[Fridge]

Your brakes must be good then@Barrykearley, are they upgraded?

Personally I can't see anything wrong with my old anchor I throw out the back. Works every time.

[Lotusfab]

This is why I chose POR15

https://www.por15.com/

It's not cheap as there are so many stages and chemicals needed and they are expensive. It is a mega amount of work. I cleaned the chassis inside and out for about two weeks with everything I could get my hands on including a very high pressure washer, brake cleaner and POR 15 cleaner degreaser and lots of rags. Until it was spotless. Cleaning inside the tunnel with rags and sticks takes a lifetime. I then etched the galvanised metal surface with metal prep. I had to keep it wet fir over 20 mins for the chemical reaction to take place. I used a spray gun to keep the surface wet. I then applied the Rust prventative coating, a surface primer and the UV  resistant top coat. If it's worth it who knows, time will tell. I have been told by people who have used it the finish is retained after many many years with no rust. As I have said before I evaluated all of the options and decided POR15 had the most advantages. It's very very subjective and in my view Galvanising is not risk free, but Dave seems to have found a company that is very good at it. I'm sure there are others out there who would just as easily trash your project and make excuses. Still,  unless I do another one and galvanise it I won't know. What I do know is I never want to Do the work required to POR15 another chassis! Just to be clear it's not paint but a chemical process leaving a rust resistant Epoxy coating so tough you can bash it with a hammer and it won't chip. If the surface is scratched you can recover it with a spray or brush. 

[Lotusfab]

Back to the resto

I need some help with the fan circuit. There is a brown fuse holder of some king in the fan circuit. It looks like 50s bakerlite and is broken. Is it some kind of thermal fuse or just a fuse holder to protect the fan circuit?