380 - where do the additional Bhp come from

[French Frie]

... apart from the fact that the Cup gen 1 was 345hp (probably less, dynoed), your feeling seems logical  !  

[550superfast]

3 hours ago, Jokke Vlo said:

So .....

 

I buy an Exige V6 cup 1 gen, with a rev limit on 7200, shiftlights full at 7000 and has 360 hp (355)

I buy an Exige 380 sport, with a rev limit at 6800, where the shiftlights are full at 6500.

The "380", has it's 375hp at 6800 which in reality you NEVER have as you have to shift at 6500.

So in fact a 380 has no more "engine, hp" as a V6 cup.

Am I wrong if I say if feel a bit ripped of? 

 

Put it on a dyno or rolling road and see what it is making at 6500 rpm - then you will answer your own question

[Jokke Vlo]

Yes we will do, of course

[Jokke Vlo]

Check this !

So for me it is clear where the 30hp more horsepower are. They are AFTER the limiter or just at the end of it. In pure speed on the same distance I don't see ANY difference at all (data comparing on same circuit). 

If all 380 have the same limiter settings, this 380 name is just a big marketing thing and buyers are fooled. Just check the limiter and shifting lights !!

My standard V6 Exige without any modification: 

New Exige 380 sport:

 

[The Pits]

I don't believe for one minute that Lotus have just put 380 stickers on the car. Lotus have a long history of honest and accurate power figures, even during the days when everyone else was exaggerating. 215bhp Esprit seemed to perform very well against a 270bhp Ferrari 328. I also owned a Ferrari 355 which supposedly had 375bhp. I sold it for a 350bhp Esprit V8 and that was so much faster it was ridiculous! Ferrari claimed the 'active' exhaust was worth another 30bhp!

We've seen this all before with the Evora 400 dyno tests and Exige V6 dyno confusion, speculation, suspicion and accusations yet all it turned out to be was wheel speed discrepancy confusing the ecu. On a rolling road which keeps all four wheels turning, the figures were all correct. Lotus could not get away with trying to trick or fool anyone, it just doesn't happen these days. Same for any other car maker. All power claims have to be verified.

You have every right to be disappointed if your car is not even revving to 6800rpm, this has to be corrected without delay. The extra power will certainly be made over 6,000rpm the car I drove really pulled hard into the cut-out but also there was more torque above 4,000rpm than in my V6 Cup, noticeably more, and the Cup cars feel very strong on torque due to the light weight. I have absolutely no doubt that the Sport 380 I drove was faster than my V6 Cup. That is my honest opinion, I'm not defending Lotus, I will be the first to criticize them if the 380 does not deliver.

I really hope you can achieve a big improvement with your car soon, a lot of people are reading your posts with great interest, but I think it's best to keep a lid on the speculation until you know for sure about the facts.

[Jokke Vlo]

Yes of course, agree 100%,  I am only questioning and check data/facts. Lotus is saying that the 380hp are at 6800rpm..... so I guess this is true. It feels indeed "good" but the shift lights at 6500 and cuit out at 6800rpm seems to make it difficult to use it, by my first experience.

All data was sent to dealer and Lotus, so now we are waiting  

[vd9]

To be fair to them, they claim max power at 6,700 on the website. Would definitely be interesting to see a log and also what happens once it is hot (I guess it should be possible to log AFR, timing and boost with OBDII - should give a good indication if anything changes from normal temperature to properly hot).

 

Edited April 12, 2017 by vd9

[Jokke Vlo]

Got feedback. For Lotus all seems ok and as they put the limiter lights at 6500 and motor rev cut of at 6800 to protetct the gearbox.

I have to check power output at 6500-6600 as you are shifting there. 

For me this low shifting rpm doesn't feel nice and it looks (data track figures) not faster as a V6cup car. I guess it is because you shift at 6500 and imo you have lower hp there then at 7000rpm with the cup. 

Let's say that the fantastic work on Aero is a little killed by this low rpm shifting imo. 

Cup owners have made the right choice imo, just work a little on front set up and aero. 

[Kristof Thys]

On 12-4-2017 at 13:03, vd9 said:

To be fair to them, they claim max power at 6,700 on the website. Would definitely be interesting to see a log and also what happens once it is hot (I guess it should be possible to log AFR, timing and boost with OBDII - should give a good indication if anything changes from normal temperature to properly hot).

AFR, nor boost are available for the OBDII.  Boost I don't recall.

If the car makes 380bhp(-ish) at 6700 and the cutout is at 6700-6800 and the shift lights are at 6500 then I completely understand Jokke's frustration as you're nit in the sweet spot power wise on the upshifts.

 

@Jokke, when you're gonna put your car on the dyno (I know you will ;-), have them have the AFRs sniffed out as well, as I'm interested to see if things have changed over the V6S.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Kristof Thys

[The Pits]

OK, disappointed to hear this is 'normal'. You definitely have to drive to the cutout then. Plenty of other cars make peak power at their cut out such as the E46 M3 and I didn't much like the idea of that either.

I guess I would look at getting the car remapped for 7000. I can't believe it would damage the engine given how many hard miles the 345 engines have done without problems. Haven't heard of any KT430's going bang either....

I will say that I rarely rev my own car into the 7200rpm cutout, using the torque is often faster, even on the track. I guess those with V6 Exiges need to ask themselves how much of an issue it would be for them to have their cars stuck in 'Tour' as that is effectively what the 380 is like. I did notice the lower cut out on my test drive, and our review was the only one to mention it. However the noise was so good it didn't seem to matter much on the road. It's not like the Evora Sport 410 is the screamer and the 380 the diesel now, as you can hear on my comparison video they sound like they're revving pretty much the same.

But there is a psychological difference and matter of principle. We buy expense sports cars to enjoy expensive, exotic engines that you won't find in a hatchback. The Sport 380 certainly sounds the part, but however good it sounds at 6500, it would only sound even better at 7500. I happen to really like the Toyota V6s that Lotus use, but someone needs to remind JMG that he is in the sports car business! 

[Stubox]

If they've put a smaller pulley on the sc then isn't it more likely to stop overspeed on these than protect a gearbox that's been spinning away happily for a few years at higher rpm?

[The Pits]

Quite possibly Stu, the most plausible explanation yet. Another reason they should have switched to the 1900cc blower as an interim upgrade before going chargecooled.

[Mark030358]

Is the Evora 410 gearbox the same as the Exige? As the rpm limit on this machine is 7000rpm. So if the boxes. Are the same then to say 6800 is protecting the gearbox does not ring true...

cheers

 

 

[nerobi]

As i know exige's engine heats more because of lack of chargecooling.It probably affects gearbox.

[The Pits]

The torque is 302lbs/ft so no problem with the gearbox. The most likely problem is as  Stu mentioned, with a smaller pulley the supercharger is spinning faster so overcranking at 6800rpm, 7200rpm would probably be too much for hard sustained use, or at least would shorten its lifespan. The Evora uses a different Edelbrock supercharger and one evidently better suited to (slightly) higher revs. Also chargecooling makes the inlet air cooler and denser, making more power, therefore not needing to work the supercharger so hard to get the same volume of air into the combustion chamber.

[Win911]

On 14.4.2017 at 12:00, Jokke Vlo said:

Got feedback. For Lotus all seems ok and as they put the limiter lights at 6500 and motor rev cut of at 6800 to protetct the gearbox.

I have to check power output at 6500-6600 as you are shifting there. 

For me this low shifting rpm doesn't feel nice and it looks (data track figures) not faster as a V6cup car. I guess it is because you shift at 6500 and imo you have lower hp there then at 7000rpm with the cup. 

Let's say that the fantastic work on Aero is a little killed by this low rpm shifting imo. 

Cup owners have made the right choice imo, just work a little on front set up and aero. 

Yes...that was my thought. The Syncro doesn't work good near the limiter at higher Oiltemps in the Gearbox. A Oilcooler will help but i could understand what Lotus does. I had a lot of Probs to change from 3rd to 4th at higher RPMs. If i change under 7000rpm it works fine.

[JayEmm]

Not having much experience with the Exige, but having the same engine in the 400, I find being able to rev to 7000 very useful. In my old M3 as pointed out the red line was 8000rpm but the engine doesn't feel like it wants to go that high.

In the Lotus the engine feels very keen to rev and pulls strongly. In tour mode I have found myself bumping into the limited on more than one occasion. The way the Lotus is geared those fee hundred rpm make a difference.

The 400 also does not have shift lights either. I expect if you are used to a V6 at certain tracks there might be corners where you now need to change that you didn't before - those fee hundred rpm translate into quite a few mph in some cases.