Sport 380vs718SvTTRS video

[The Pits]

20 hours ago, DK7 said:

I think its a good question why the Exige 380 isnt much faster on track or straight line.

(Exige 380 -380hp/1130Kg- vs. 981 GT4 -385hp/1380kg or 718 -350hp/1420 kg)

Where`s the beef??

You are assuming the GT4 is faster based on what? Internet hearsay? There have been no conclusive tests done. Sport Auto haven't set a lap of the NS in a 380 yet. The 380 went considerably quicker over a short lap than the 718S, a car with as much torque as the GT4. Not quick enough for Antoine but within 0.7secs of the GT4 time after a big mistake set by a different driver on a different day. It's just not conclusive and Lotus are not deserving of this reaction on here. You lot are acting like the Porsche was faster!

The GT4 has nothing to do with it until someone gets the two cars together for a proper comparison. I suggest everyone calms down until that happens.

[DaveC72]

At the risk of setting myself up for some ridicule here:

I'm wondering just how much effect the Aero package on the 380 will have over the 350...

... I don't have the engineering knowledge of some on here, but would that not be a factor as to my, albeit uneducated, thinking the "lighter" car would only be so when static.  At speed I would expect the extra down-force to be at least a partial factor?

[The Pits]

1 hour ago, Mark030358 said:

Interesting to read that translated report, re "hitting a wall".

 I was speaking with an exhaust supplier, re refitting his back box to my 380. He told me while he was at an eminent Lotus tuner, they had observed a massive drop off in power on a four wheel rolling road when the exhaust valve opened on the Lotus back box. I can't remember the numbers he quoted, via the tuner, but 30 to 40 hp seems to stick. He has also posted this on another forum, Pistonheads, if I recollect rightly. I see no reason for him to tell "porkies" as I have found dealing with him excellent in every respect, so maybe this tuner does have a point!

Anyway, when I get my 380 and run in properly, I'll put in on a four wheel dyno and see what the output is. Then I will refit my after market box which I took off my V6S and do another run. Obviously will post the results here.

Will be interesting to see....

 

cheers

Mark

ps I agree, this is a Lotus forum, not a porker love in. If you like Lotus stay here, if not go elsewhere.

 

Yes seller of after market exhausts slating the factory ones is nothing new. The bit that sounds unlikely to me is a bigger bore pipe ruining top end power. Difficulties with getting accurate dyno measurments has been well documented on here. We had fits of despair about the Toyota V6 only making 320bhp not so long ago. It amounted to the car's ecu backing off the power due to differences in wheel speed. No doubt an internet rumour is still circulating about the Lotus bhp lies. What people seem to be ignoring is how well the cars perform on track compared to other so called superior cars. No-one left Brands Hatch last week disappointed. Quite the opposite.

@DaveC72 I would expect 60% more downforce to have a very obvious effect on the car's top speed but Lotus claim the coefficient of drag is the same. Until we see something that proves otherwise we'll just have to take Lotus's word for it. Certainly looks very stable at 275kmh in the video.

@Swiss360Cup most people were OK with Lotus beating the Boxster and Audi TT around Hockenheim, it was you who interpreted it as evidence of Porsche's superiority.

[Swiss380Cup]

But the question remain unanswered.... where does the 300 kgs weight advantage becomes a killer advantage ?????? 

[C8RKH]

Antoine. Please, enough. This really is becoming tiresome and a bore now.  As Jonny says let's wait and see based on a true and proper comparison which to my understanding has not yet happened. And, by the standards of all drivers on here, we will not be able to get to the optimum speed / lap times whether we are in a 350, 360 or a 380 or anything else from any other manufacturer.  Unless of course we are the best 1% of drivers already so the debate is largely, maybe totally, academic anyway.  Please move on.

[Swiss380Cup]

I'll probably never get an answer here about this 300 kgs weight advantage vs the technological prowess, but I think Lotus is going into a dangerous path by hiking it's prices so much into other sports cars territory without a decisive technological advantage... and that would be it for that matter

[TBD]

What I find disappointing in the video is the poor setup the Exige got for the test. I'm sure Porsche and Audi had the car specifically set up for the track, whereas we all know Lotus just barely hands over any press car. The result can be seen in this and the Sport Auto tests of both the Exige and the 311. Have you ever noticed, that in TV car presentations all major manufacturers are always present with at least two cars, one with road setup and a different one for the track portion of the video.

I remember how Norbert and some others complained about understeer in the Exige when they first got the car and now revel in the performance after getting a proper setup.

In my eyes Lotus should be prohibited from passing press cars for track tests in Germany without having them prepared by Komotec. There is more than a second in that surely!

[Swiss380Cup]

Yes, you're right, but there's such a financial disadvantage between Lotus and the other brands....that they can't afford doing that..... I was once interested in the new V6 Cup R, my dealer and I wanted to buy one each to go racing.....but my friend told me that they wouldn't manufacture it until they get 10 firm orders.....there were 5 at the time only...... but I agree with you, I don't understand why Lotus doesn't work a little closer with Komo-Tec, I'm sure they'd be more than happy to help...... another big disadvantage is also probably the PDK vs Manual.... look at the new GT3, the manual gives 0.6 s from 0 to 100 to the PDK... on a track it might be another sec lost somewhere.... on the other hand Lotus brought the race 3-11 not the road 3-11 to Hockenheim and the Ring if I'm not mistaken....so it's also misleading .... it's a 50 HP advantage + the sequential racing gearbox.........

[Supercrosser]

On 21.4.2017 at 12:09, Jokke Vlo said:

Again, this hard cut off at 6800 if your HP of 274hp is at 6700 is just a joke ! You can't shift at 6700 exact, it is 6350-6550 in general. How much HP do you have there, and compare this with a 345hp Exige with cut off at 7100, where you shift at 6650-7000.

0-200 16.9 sec  very disappointing

only 2tenths quicker at Hockenheim than the cruiser 718S..

Lotus, sorry to say, but you´re going to loose enthusiastic folks, being interested in your products.

If the 380 would do 1.08 as the "full GT" 991 GTS has shown in Hockenheim, i would gladly buy into a 380CUP... but not like this...

sitting in a spartan, lightweight, pocket-race-car and being overtaken by a 991 with venitlated seats and full stereo would be frustrating

IMHO

 

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/heftvorschau-sport-auto-06-2017-11570033.html

[Trevsked]

^^^^^^^ Spot on.

 

Trevor.

[JayEmm]

From my limited experience of DRIVING the Cayman GT4 and Evora 400 on road, neither felt significantly quicker than the other. I suspect Porsche may be slightly cautious with their official 0-60 times (to not piss off 911 owners) and Lotus may even be slightly optimistic with theirs. I doubt there's much in it.

From my limited experience of being a PASSENGER in an Exige Sport 350, bearing in mind I am a fair bit of ballast, the Exige felt noticeably quicker than the Evora 400. It pulls very hard. Perhaps the 400 just masks it better.

A double clutch gearbox is definitely worth time on a circuit, in any car. It is the obsession of chasing lap times (And emissions figures) that are in part killing the manual sports car. Let's also bear in mind the times here between the new Audi TT RS (which is as fast as an R8 0-60) and Exige are 1.6 seconds apart, on a short circuit. EVO magazine in the UK tested some cars at a small circuit here called Blyton park and the old Exige S was only 1.9 seconds slower than a Pagani Huayra... a 700bhp, $2m+ car.

Around another small British circuit, Anglesey, they say there is only a 1.2 second difference between the 911 GT3 and a McLaren P1. Nobody would try and tell you the McLaren is a slow car.

[Swiss380Cup]

5 minutes ago, JayEmm said:

From my limited experience of DRIVING the Cayman GT4 and Evora 400 on road, neither felt significantly quicker than the other. I suspect Porsche may be slightly cautious with their official 0-60 times (to not piss off 911 owners) and Lotus may even be slightly optimistic with theirs. I doubt there's much in it.

From my limited experience of being a PASSENGER in an Exige Sport 350, bearing in mind I am a fair bit of ballast, the Exige felt noticeably quicker than the Evora 400. It pulls very hard. Perhaps the 400 just masks it better.

A double clutch gearbox is definitely worth time on a circuit, in any car. It is the obsession of chasing lap times (And emissions figures) that are in part killing the manual sports car. Let's also bear in mind the times here between the new Audi TT RS (which is as fast as an R8 0-60) and Exige are 1.6 seconds apart, on a short circuit. EVO magazine in the UK tested some cars at a small circuit here called Blyton park and the old Exige S was only 1.9 seconds slower than a Pagani Huayra... a 700bhp, $2m+ car.

Around another small British circuit, Anglesey, they say there is only a 1.2 second difference between the 911 GT3 and a McLaren P1. Nobody would try and tell you the McLaren is a slow car.

Yes you're right, these tracks are far too short to get a convincing conclusion...... reason why I suggest to bring the cars to the Ring...it's a very long and very difficult car with conditions close to a normal countryside road....it's not by chance that everybody goes there to test their cars and it has become a reference..... even the Japanese, Yankees, Koreans, etc. come here.... Porsche even has its time notarized...... 

[JayEmm]

I'd love Lotus to have a proper go at the ring. But I agree that it should be done by giving a car to Komo-Tec and letting them set it up. The ring is a strange place though. There's a certain Italian manufacturer who seem to have pulled an impossible time there?

Some cars can get a massive advantage there too just because of the long straight it has. 10mph more down there counts for a lot!

In fact, even Porsche themselves I believe cried foul when Nissan took the GTR around there.

[Bibs]

Honda Civic Type R now holds the FF lap record around the 'Ring. Gonna buy one? Didn't think so... 

http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/honda-civic-type-r-sets-new-ring-record/story-30289617-detail/story.html

There's a lot more to a car than a time around the NS in my opinion. 

[The Pits]

 

56 minutes ago, Supercrosser said:

0-200 16.9 sec  very disappointing

only 2tenths quicker at Hockenheim than the cruiser 718S..

Lotus, sorry to say, but you´re going to loose enthusiastic folks, being interested in your products.

If the 380 would do 1.08 as the "full GT" 991 GTS has shown in Hockenheim, i would gladly buy into a 380CUP... but not like this...

sitting in a spartan, lightweight, pocket-race-car and being overtaken by a 991 with venitlated seats and full stereo would be frustrating

IMHO

 

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/heftvorschau-sport-auto-06-2017-11570033.html

0-200kmh in 12.9 seconds isn't disappointing, it's faulty.

Do you really believe Lotus would make the 380 3 seconds slower than the 350?

Back in the real world I haven't been overtaken by 'a 991 with venitlated seats and full stereo' yet if that helps.

 

[cib24]

Could some of the difference not only be the transmission but the fact that the engine heat soaks due to not running an intercooler or chargecooler? If I'm not mistaken the only car that Lotus makes which has a chargecooler is the Evora 400 and Evora Sport 410. Hot intake air temps are almost certain after a couple of minutes of WOT pulls on a non-intercooled engine and thus the ECU has to pull timing and reduce power because the air isn't as dense.

Every car I have ever owned with forced induction would lose power due to heat soak. My FD RX-7 is no different. The stock-mount intercooler sits in the engine bay where it gets nice and toasty and eventually results in intake air temps over 60 or 70 C that kills power quite dramatically, hence why so many people convert to a front-mount or V-Mount solution to ensure the intercooler is away from the engine bay heat as much as possible. 

In the case of the Lotus cars you don't have the space for a proper intercooler setup so the Evora chargecooler is the next best bet, but as an aftermarket solution you could utilise water injection and use a small 250cc or 500cc nozzle to control intake temps. I use the AEM kit on my FD and it keeps my intake temps below 50 C even on the hottest days and since I use a small nozzle I only have to fill it up every 2 or 3 15 minute track sessions depending on the size of the track, and I am using a small c.500-600ml tank compared to the 1.15 gallon tank supplied with the AEM kit and can be installed as such. A charge cooler wouldn't compromise boot space though but is way more expensive to purchase compared to a £300 water injection kit. 

Ideas

[NW76]

35 minutes ago, The Pits said:

 

Back in the real world I haven't been overtaken by 'a 991 with venitlated seats and full stereo' yet if that helps.

 

Wait until you meet Jokke in his 991 GTS ? ... 

Where did Sport Auto get that 380 from? Does anybody have an idea? Is it a Dealership car?

[Tim Raven]

My GT4 is always available for a back to back, it does run more camber than a standard car ( primarily to mitigate the awful front tyre wear and also to reduce understeer ). I do an awful lot of track days, have just hit 40 in less than two years, I'd say the Exige V6 is quicker without doubt, they alway seem to get away from me pulling out of slow/medium speed corners, I think the GT4 is maybe a little easier to drive through quick corners and possible easier to brake late and hard.

I'm always sorry I don't ever meet up with you boys on track somewhere, but I'm not keen on doing uninsured days so RMA are these days out of the question .

[The Pits]

All these intelligent people, no-one questions the test.

What circumstances was this 0-200kph time set? The car could have come straight off the track for all we know. The 380 is likely to suffer with heatsoak more, why? Because it makes more power. This could explain the 'wall'. The same wall that hit the EX430 car I followed at Spa. Yet no-one gives Komotec a hard time about this? Only Lotus?

I think Roy's post is very interesting. In my experience the old four cyl Exige suffered more from heatsoak than my V6 which I find generally pretty consistent considering it doesn't have an intercooler (and the 4 cyl Exige did!).

It was very cold the day I drove the 380 back to back against my V6 Cup. It was definitely faster then. I will ask to take it out again next time I'm at the dealer.

Tim has more real world track experience than most. He seems to think that the Exiges compare well to the GT4 despite what the rest of the internet thinks and is about as far away from a blinkered Lotus fan as you can get!

[Jokke Vlo]

Ok her I go..... after all the discussions and my feelings It was time to ho look at my data.

Same driver, same track, same suspension, different tyre as the 380 is on Michelin cup (Trofeo is faster).

What I saw was just a confirmation from what I feel and even then I was silent and look over and over the data, checking different laps.

The 380 just shows it is barely faster in topspeed (even when it comes faster out of a corner !!!!) 

Front nose and grip are better with even "less better" tyres it is faster in corners. 

I think this is very objective information clearly stating what I say.

If the 380 would have his 375hp accessable like the 345 V6 it would be as fast as the 430.

I don't know how to prove what I say more objective as this. Total laptime of the 380 was 1.5 sec faster as V6 but ONLY by more grip. Not at all by the Engine. This proves everything prettig clear to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Jokke Vlo

[Jokke Vlo]

380 .... the forum Doesn't allow me to upload more MB  so last picture is smaller. Sorry

[NW76]

Jokke: thanks!!! Pretty clear!!!

Is that AIM? What Track?

[Jokke Vlo]

AIM Zolder

[NW76]

Thanks! I have AIM myself know but still have to learn how to do proper data analysis...

[The Pits]

Were you losing time on the limiter during this 380 lap or did you try to go a gear higher?

I would expect to see a much higher gain over the standard V6 too, but I would be questioning the performance of my car, not the integrity of the whole company.

Again, do you really believe that Lotus would produce a 380ps model with no more performance than their 350ps model?

I'm not questioning your data but there must be something going on here besides this idea that Lotus have decided to start tricking their customers.