The world's first respectful Exige V6 Vs Cayman GT4 debate.

[The Pits]

Objectively:

Exige

Pros: Lighter. Better power:weight. Uncorrupted steering. Unequal length wishbone suspension. Available at list price. Body will never rust. Side impact protection. Modest running costs. More advanced traction control system. Developed on UK roads. Buying new benefits the UK economy.

Cons: Rear 3/4 visibility. Ingress/egress difficulty. Heavy steering at parking speeds. Build quality. Parts availability. Depreciation. Small fuel tank. 380 exhaust too noisy for many tracks. Heatsoak. Single piece clam repair cost. NVH. Limited dealer network.

Cayman GT4

Pros: All-round visibility. Build quality. Interior fit and finish. NVH. Easier ingress/egress. More instruments. Easier to drive. Large development budget. Large dealer network. Spare parts availability. No depreciation (at the moment).

Cons: Buying new benefits the German economy (a pro if you're German of course!). Developed on German roads. Too noisy for many tracks. Detuned engine. Strut suspension. Electric steering. Electric handbrake. Unavailable at list price. Porsche running costs. Porsche options costs.

 

Subjectively:

Exige

Pros: Stunning looking. Single piece clams for no shut lines. Exciting at all speeds. Race car feel. Race car ingress/egress. Best steering of all time. Connection to the road. Driver involvement. Natural on track. Durable on track. Brawny torque at all engine speeds. Motorsport heritage. Even control weights. Steering response. Pedals perfectly placed for heel and toe. Compliance (for a car of this type). Dramatic. DPM is genius. 380 noise is epic. Love the Lotus brand and history. By buying a Lotus you're part of that story and helping to keep it going. Lotus deserve more support than they get.

Cons: Needs more revs. Throttle response can be sluggish. Runs rich. Depreciation. Your wife will hate it. You need to be in the mood.

Cayman GT4

Pros: Mid-mounted flat-six. Little to no depreciation. Durable on track (apparently!). Daily useability. Easy to drive fast. Great all-rounder. A well balanced, well developed package. Motorsport heritage. Greater long distance comfort. More wife/woman friendly. You're never far from a Porsche dealer in Europe. Won't get you removed as a moderator from TLF.

Cons: Panamera inspired styling. OK looking at best, actually quite ugly. Strangled engine. Electric steering. Electric handbrake. Porsche image. Rev matching is heel and toe for numpties. Compulsory rev matching in sport mode. Doesn't sound that great (GTS sounds better). Feels mass produced. A bit too ordinary. Over hyped. A big middle finger to struggling British sports car makers. Porsche don't need any more support. You will get teased on TLF.

 

[Neal H]

Let's be honest here. Both cars capabilities are far beyond the reach of 90% of the people likely to buy them, so the buying decision is purely subjective. 'Better' is largely irrelevant, you will buy the one you most desire.

For the vast majority that will always be the Porsche. Their scale, their (perceived) quality, their reputation, their marketing budget (and skill!!).

I don't know why people get hung up on which is better. As driving machines both are clearly superb and while the 'racers' may have their preference, for the rest of us it's an emotive choice and the Porsche is, and likely always will be, the safe choice.

[The Pits]

Absolutely, the subjective pros and cons have a far bigger influence over our buying behaviour. But it's a worthwhile exercise for a contentious issue like this to separate our subjective from our objective reasons. No doubt British built is a subjective 'con' for most Porsche buyers, whereas it's a subjective 'pro' for me.

I have no desire whatsoever to own a GT4 but I don't find it hard to see why someone else would.

[MesTCS]

It's a shame the other thread got closed. There was some good banter in between the ramblings of the banned idiot. 

I'd love to know what a GT4 is like. There has to be some serious amount of goodness in there to get the reviews it has had. I'd love to have the money to own one too. But at that price point, I'd be looking at an Evora 410. 

For me it's simple:

Exige
Pro: It's a Lotus

GT4
Con: It's a Porsche

I like to think I have very little brand snobbery in me but I couldn't bring myself to own a Porsche. I'm sure the GT4 is superb and I would relish the opportunity for a ride let a alone a drive but at the end of the day I simply don't like the look of them. Any of them. Save the 918 and Carrera GT but they're unattainable anyway. I thought long and hard about a GT4, I really did. But that was when I was thinking about selling the other cars and going all out for a new car. At the end of the day, I bought a used V6 (allowing me to keep the others) and for what I need (very low driving god factor) it's utterly, utterly brilliant.

The day I bought it, during my very first fuel stop, a yellow GT4 pulled up a few pumps over. As I was waiting in the queue to pay, the owner ended up behind me and said "nice car mate, I really wanted a Lotus but my wife wouldn't let me have one..."

I replied "Yours is very nice too. That's funny, my wife said she wouldn't set foot in a Porsche if a bought one"

We both smiled and went about our day and I was glad I didn't tell him fully how vitriolic Mrs M actually was

[plenty]

3 hours ago, The Pits said:

 No doubt British built is a subjective 'con' for most Porsche buyers, whereas it's a subjective 'pro' for me.

I suspect for most Porsche buyers British built isn't so much of a outright negative, but rather that it's just not that important.

FWIW I'd have both - I don't think they're that directly comparable.  Exige for weekend blasts and track in the UK, GT4 for overseas road trips and trips away with the Mrs.  Both wonderful, desirable cars with their own strengths, of which any owner would be rightfully be proud.

[The Pits]

Your wife sounds like an amazing woman Mes, I can see why you fell for her!

[The Pits]

3 minutes ago, plenty said:

I suspect for most Porsche buyers British built isn't so much of a outright negative, but rather that it's just not that important.

FWIW I'd have both - I don't think they're that directly comparable.  Exige for weekend blasts and track in the UK, GT4 for overseas road trips and trips away with the Mrs.  Both wonderful, desirable cars with their own strengths, of which any owner would be rightfully be proud.

By that I think you mean they are indifferent, they don't care where their car is built, it's the right car for them for a multitude of reasons, there is no bigger picture beyond that. I was never able to understand the Union Flag emblazoned GB Edition 911 Turbo though. Still makes my head go dizzy thinking about it!

[Vanya]

I get such a headache when I see "quality" mentioned in every sentence regarding Porsche. I recently went to look at a couple of 996 models was lectured by a dealer (about 30 seconds after arriving) about how German motors will never fail, have no problems, are 110% reliable, over-dimensioned and rock solid. He then proceeded to tell me how all British cars are shit, unreliable and packed with Lucas electronics which never work properly. To elaborate on this he told me about an old MG he worked on at some point probably 45 years ago.

Now after viewing a few cars (and actually being quite disappointed with regards to fit and finish, design etc when compared to my old XKR) I did some reading and discovered the whole IMS debacle. Porsche were selling cars with engines that could fail at any time, so catastrophically, that in many cases the only feasible option would be a new-in-crate engine at anywhere between 14,000-20,000 USD (Don't know what they ask over here in Europe but I'm sure it's not as cheap as a 918 or 910 engine from Lotus...).

Most discussions circled around the Carrera, but Boxsters and Caymans were affected as well, unbeknownst to many owners. And I've read plenty of threads where "happy-go-lucky" owners cautioned prospective buyers with their tales all saying "I never thought it would happen to me, until it did". Die-hard Porsche fans swatted away fears by saying "just buy a car under Warranty" or "buy a third party/aftermarket warranty that covers IMS failure".

For me, the hallmark of quality is how a car performs OUTSIDE of warranty, not within the first 3 years after it's left the factory. In this sense the "shitty unreliable British" 910 engine has impressed me to no end. 

So the IMS issue disappeared in 2009, but who is to say that there aren't other quality issues of the same ilk? Perhaps less severe? Personally, barring catastrophic design choices like the M96 engine possessed, which risk subjecting an owner to financial ruin, I'm fine with "issues". Because I expect every car to have them, it's just a matter of time. But can we please stop feeding the myth that German engineering is infallible....or am I just bitter? Have I missed something? What exactly is it that makes, for instance, a GT4 so superior with regards to quality? or are we simply talking fit and finish, in which case I'm prepared to believe it (even though Porker interiors are an exercise in the mundane, even objectively speaking). 

[The Pits]

Totally get all that Vanya. Also that Porsche interiors have been noteably austere and drab until more recent years, but they have taken giant strides since. My dad's Boxster is a pretty charmless place to spend time, the current cars incomparably improved. I did sit in a GT4 recently and was struck how unremarkable it felt in there, also how exotic an Evora S1 felt in direct comparison but have to accept that most sitting in showrooms would declare the Porsche to be the better of the two in terms of fit and finish. The mass produced feel is reassuring to most and you would expect comments of bits of trim feeling 'flimsy' in an Evora 400. You would hope and expect a Cayman to be squeak and rattle free perhaps some Cayman owners can confirm this? Conversely, you could expect some squeaks and rattles in an Evora, all hopefully fixable of course! In terms of quality of engineering I think there are areas that Porsche cut corners, for example by chosing McPherson strut-type suspension, though the results appear to displease no-one. Culturally, the suspension is of such importance to Lotus I believe they spend a disproportionate amount on this area. An Exige is a much prettier sight underneath where no-one is looking but the huge budgets Porsche enjoy have to show at some point. Certainly, being able to bespoke engineer engines and gearboxes ought to means fewer compromises than Lotus has to deal with. You only have to see the limitations of the current Exige Toyota gearbox despite the great strides Lotus have been taking in terms of shift quality. Again though, 'mundane, drab and ordinary' must be filed under 'subjective' so no more or less valid than someone else's positive opinion on the same thing. A car interior either squeaks or rattles or it doesn't though. None of them are meant to so that's a minus if they do. Mine can do at certain temperatures but generally doesn't, I'll say that's not a bad effort for a full-on track car.

Did I just stick up for Porsche there? Who's idea was this thread?! 

 

[MesTCS]

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

Your wife sounds like an amazing woman Mes, I can see why you fell for her!

Absolute diamond mate. Genuine petrolhead. My drinking partner. And bent over backwards to help me work out finances to get me in the Exige.

No idea what I did to deserve her to be honest!

Can't believe you're selling that STUNNING car! But can 100% see why you want that new one!

[The Pits]

Very sore subject. Absolutely adore that car! Stunningly reliable and teak tough. Still, the Evora's being delayed out of choice so I'll be able to enjoy it for a while yet.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, The Pits said:

Durable on track (apparently!)

Very apparently

Gearbox list of failures:

https://rennlist.com/forums/gt4/954397-gt4-g81-transmission-failure.html

[Barrykearley]

No one and I mean no one mention "end float"....... 

[Exige604]

I love both cars although I've only driven the Exige. GT4 interior is very nice, I think the buckets are better than the Exige seats and I wish there was just a little more interior to the Lotus...I get the whole weight argument but simple cupholders, a compartment where you could actually hide something and electric mirrors...oh and decent stereo with GPS? I'd happily take an extra 50kgs...just think 380 is £75K for zero interior is a little rough. 

[Gm77]

Controversial comment warning!

The peddle position in the Cayman is outstanding! I've never driven a car that is so satisfying to heel and toe. By the same measure, my Elise is OK, and the 400 is tricky at best.

Having said that, there's two Lotii in my garage and no Porsche, and that isn't changing anytime soon.

[W31SSN]

Prior to getting the Exige I had a Cayman 987 Sport S, great car but was constantly wary of the IMS failure issue.  Wanting something more track focused I tried to get a GT4 from new but wasn't able to so tried the next best option the Exige 350.  Having gone from never even sat in any Lotus to regularly tracking ours, and driven  and been passenger(with a very competent GT3 spec peddler) in a GT4 I am glad of the Lotus choice.  The GT4 is an amazing car, but that's exactly it's problem, it's so well engineered it's just boring. It doesn't feel special inside and doesn't give you that same track buzz.  Incidentally the GT3 spec driver taking me round also felt the same way.  People bang on about lap times endlessly, but if that's what you are after then get a 996 cup with slicks and you'll leave pretty much any track toy in the dust.  If you want   something you can improve and have proper fun in, get a Lotus. 

[DarrylV8]

On 11/08/2017 at 12:40, Neal H said:

Let's be honest here. Both cars capabilities are far beyond the reach of 90% of the people likely to buy them, so the buying decision is purely subjective. 'Better' is largely irrelevant, you will buy the one you most desire.

For the vast majority that will always be the Porsche. Their scale, their (perceived) quality, their reputation, their marketing budget (and skill!!).

I don't know why people get hung up on which is better. As driving machines both are clearly superb and while the 'racers' may have their preference, for the rest of us it's an emotive choice and the Porsche is, and likely always will be, the safe choice.

We have owned Lotus cars since 1981, presently own a 2015 Evora S sports racer IPS gearbox and 2014 Exige roadster manual. Both bought brand new.

never owned a porsche have never wanted to own a Porsche. Next new car will be a Lotus, will not even be a discussion well possibly on colour

[cbaileyuk]

Is 430cup permitted to post on this thread?

I am surprised he's not here as he is largely the reason this thread exists.

Edited August 11, 2017 by cbaileyuk

[NW76]

38 minutes ago, W31SSN said:

Prior to getting the Exige I had a Cayman 987 Sport S, great car but was constantly wary of the IMS failure issue.  Wanting something more track focused I tried to get a GT4 from new but wasn't able to so tried the next best option the Exige 350.  Having gone from never even sat in any Lotus to regularly tracking ours, and driven  and been passenger(with a very competent GT3 spec peddler) in a GT4 I am glad of the Lotus choice.  The GT4 is an amazing car, but that's exactly it's problem, it's so well engineered it's just boring. It doesn't feel special inside and doesn't give you that same track buzz.  Incidentally the GT3 spec driver taking me round also felt the same way.  People bang on about lap times endlessly, but if that's what you are after then get a 996 cup with slicks and you'll leave pretty much any track toy in the dust.  If you want   something you can improve and have proper fun in, get a Lotus. 

Very well said ... could not have said this any clearer - exactly were I am ???

[DanR]

Next time a Porsche owner wants to pontificate about how much superior his motor is to the Toyota motor he needs to be told that it was Toyota who taught Porsche how to build cars in the modern era.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/20/business/putting-porsche-in-the-pink.html

[The Pits]

2 hours ago, cbaileyuk said:

Is 430cup permitted to post on this thread?

I am surprised he's not here as he is largely the reason this thread exists.

This thread is nothing to do with you know who. In fact, it's only possible without him!

I'm more interested in why you didn't buy a Cayman?

[cbaileyuk]

4 hours ago, The Pits said:

This thread is nothing to do with you know who. In fact, it's only possible without him!

I'm more interested in why you didn't buy a Cayman?

I assume he's banned then; I see how it works. I didn't see anything particularly unilaterally abusive in that thread. I just saw anger in equal measure from many contributers to it.

In direct response to your query, I am not particularly into any Porsche other than a GT3 and I don't want to pay that sort of money on a car. That's for property type purchases. A GT4 is certainly an interesting proposition but it's not a 3.

Since Lotus have managed to convince some to spend almost three digits on their ageing platform, I expect the Exige Cup swansong will hit a hundred which is a shame as it will either have to be very different and special and by that I mean not how they currently are, thus Toyota powerplant, current mated drivetrain and then lots of aesthetics. For double the price of what I currently own it really needs to be something else. If it is, it will likely be where I move to. But if it pans out as I expect, the next car for me will be a McLaren. So hurry up with something special Lotus as money is sat here to buy something

Edited August 12, 2017 by cbaileyuk

[LF1]

GT4 - rev matching: You have to turn it on, there's a button for just that. Sport mode does *nothing more that turn on rev matching and kick cooling in earlier*.

Exige - Race mode: track driving for numpties.

[The Pits]

Shmee was fond of rev matching in his GT4. As this is a respectful discussion I'll leave it at that! 

I think you'll find 'Tour' is your default DPM mode for, novices (more respectful word ). 'Race' was the first TC system that the factory test drivers couldn't beat. Cheating certainly, but that's what motorsport is all about. Rev matching is cheating yourself! 

[Waitey]

Interesting thread.

For a good comparison we sadly have to live in a different parallel universe.

One where GT products from Porsche aren't used as an investment vehicle because of the daft fact we have no capital gains tax on cars...

In that world a GT4 with the obligatory £10k of options would be £76400. It'd be against at 380 sport with its obligatory (don't tell me these don't count...) £3k in options, making it around £72600.
In that world where both cars were readily available you'd see lots of GT4's on track every weekend at all the great circuits being enjoyed and you'd see some 380's ran by the Lotus fans of the world.
That's kind of the sad long and short of it. The GT4 is more polished which does take some of its charm away but it is genuinely good at everything.


In the real world, they just aren't comparable. Not due to the merits of the cars, more due to the fact the GT4 has another merit and that is the potential for cash generation.
I've done the man maths a lot, I have spreadsheets and spreadsheets comparing all sides of it, I still feel it would be cheaper for me to run a GT4 for 12 months and 5 track days than it would for me to do the same in a 380 Sport. Which I find interesting but I can't get over paying over £15k more than list for a car that is over 24 months old. The Cayman GT4 market in the UK is f**ked for want of a better word, there are nearly 50% of the UK's allocation for sale at anyone time. All not being used. One of my friends was lucky enough to be on the list to get one at the start. He spec'd it out, it was nearly £84k on delivery, thing is it was never delivered. He let the dealer show it for 2 months, at which point it was sold for £121k. £37k of income and no tax to pay on it. You can see why it happened and is still happening. Everyone is glumly hanging in for people to start using them, and then the rare few low mileage ones to rise again.

Lotus has its place and always will, its just not at the same table of Porsche. They share the fact they can be driven on track, after that they sit in a completely different segment.

The Lotus could be better as I've talked about in my other thread, it isn't going to be though. Does that stop me loving it for what it is, no it does not. Does it make me happy it exists, yes it does.

Also the quote the banned man:

both cars brakes are limited by tyres I would say.

GT4 brakes are from the 991 GT3 RS  so the car has so much braking power it's untrue.

let not pretend Lotus get anywhere near their weight or BHP where the GT4 will make more BHP than Porsche quote.

there are flaws on both platforms as race cars as both are made as road cars, so it's always a battle when both cars understeer like a dog out the box !

I feel this is totally true. The early V6S' were heavier than you'd expect but did make their power on most occasion unless one had decided to have a 6600rpm soft limiter for no reason. The 380's can't make their power repeatable due to intake temps but they are about right weight wise. Although the Dry vs Wet weight is always a balls up. Just tell me what a car weighs with all its fluids and ZERO fuel. Its not hard car makers, so do it. Also stop giving me the weight of a car with sod all options on. I could be 12 stone, but I'm not because I came with the option which means I love pizza and roast dinners like 99% of men.

As for the Cayman GT4 units power, most put out between 310-350bhp on a hub dyno. Which is a fair old swing. Thats about 350-400bhp at the fly. Ironically its always the higher mileage ones making the power.... Also its worth nothing that the standard map in a GT4 actually limits power over 5000rpm (gives you a nice torque curve mind). If you map out these limits you'll see 400bhp all day long with a more 'interesting' delivery lets say.

Oddly I've not seen a Exige on a hub dyno yet, I guess due to it confusing the traction control, which is a shame as some of the quote 'at the fly' figures using run down have been bollocks. Some have been upwards of 18% trans loss with weirdly high intake vs ambient temps.