The world's first respectful Exige V6 Vs Cayman GT4 debate.

[J-P]

Hmmm... I love to drive and I love both Lotii and Porsches.

 

I think the new iteration of Exige V6's are utterly epic to drive.  Peerless ride/handling balance but a nice car is more than just the chassis IMHO.  The engine should be epic too!  The NA flat 6 in Porsches is awesome, superlative throttle response and superb noise.

 

Ideally, I'd have both.  But if there was an NA 6cyl engine in the Exige, it would get the nod from me.

[Swiss380Cup]

The Exige 430 Cup should end the debate for good..... Lotus rules.....

[LF1]

List price without options 50% more than GT4. Apples and Pears. 

[Bibs]

I don't think 'list price' and 'GT4' can be included in the same sentence and have any credibility. 

[BatMobile]

The “your wife will hate it” comment made me laugh out loud.

she does. A lot. 

However that could also be a pro as it’s allowed me to negotiate the purchase of another more “wife friendly” car.

[The Pits]

Tom's got all logical and germanic. The Borg have him back now. I think he was only ever on loan to us to be fair!

Recent posts currently read very like a certain other notorious GT4 owner. Funny what those cars do to you but I'm steering well clear of them!

Tom you can't expect to be driving the latest, greatest german sports car of all time, while making money on it, without a bit of grief on here.

[The Pits]

Porsche v Lotus is a bit like Ferrari v Lamborghini. It's Man U vs Man City. It's right that there is a classic rivalry, long may it continue, I wouldn't have it any other way.

I see Porsche as more like Ferrari. Big, important, respected, serious, a bit stuffy and superior.

Lotus are a bit more like Lamborghini technically inferior, not built as well, engineered on a relative shoe string but the results are a lot more fun, emotionally engaging, less concerned with things like status. Being daft has always been more fun than being serious I guess. The whole of Lamborghini was a big two fingers to Enzo Ferrari. That's part of the appeal for me.

OK, so TVR is more like Lambo than Lotus who are closer to Ferrari in terms of racing heritage, technical focus but as a wise man told me yesterday you only get cars like the Exige V6 or Evora GT430 when there are less than 5 people making the decisions. As soon as you have committees upon committees making cars you might start out intending to make an Exige 380 Cup but you end up with a Cayman. Such is the love affair with quality, perceived or otherwise, there is a lot that people are willing to overlook about Porsche. Lotus are the plucky upstarts, Porsche are the monolithic corporation. Anyone daft enough to pay 'Porsche money' for a car built in Norfolk should be flicking the 'V's in the direction of Stuttgart. Every Lotus sale is a triumph against the odds and against reason. Just like the sports car itself. With 400+bhp hatchbacks and saloons there's no rational reason to be paying more to drive slower, less practical cars.

[Swiss380Cup]

There's in my opinion no logical, objective and reasonable reason to buy any of Ferraris, Lambos, Lotuses or any other super sports cars.... so any debate around that is just what it is an illogical, non-objective and unreasonable, debate....... 

[NW76]

On 8.11.2017 at 00:30, Swiss380Cup said:

Just another thought, I believe the really comparable car to an Exige V6 are the 996 GT3 and 997 GT3 1st iteration... even thought the 997 started to have a lot of electronics in it, PASM, etc.... yes, IMO, 996 GT3 1st and 2nd generation and RS is the closest. And for having had 3 of them I can tell you the Exige matches them no problem....even better I believe.. a little scarier to drive on fast tracks, but still.... Lotus is for people who LOVE TO DRIVE and Porsches for people who like to go very fast without worrying too much about the driving....

You hit the nail on the head ... 

[Barrykearley]

21 hours ago, BatMobile said:

However that could also be a pro as it’s allowed me to negotiate the purchase of another more “wife friendly” car.

Thank me later 

 

[BatMobile]

I was thinking along the lines of the Alfa quadrofoglio but I can clearly see the error of my ways now.

you had me convinced at “thank”  

[C8RKH]

@NW76 On www.autoscout24.ch there are EXACTLY 27, yes you read me well .....27 2nd hand GT4 up for sale..... impossible to find ???? Apparently a lot of people drive them for a few thousand kms and than switch to ....to what I don't know.... and I'd really like to know why they switched.... it's a most desirable car, and priced correctly in my opinion... any clues ?

 

The above was from @Swiss380Cup on the 430Cup thread but thought my comments would be a better fit here.

I too would love to understand why the supposedly best car ever, unobtainable practically as new, is put up for sale quickly after being driven / with so little miles on it.

Is it just that Porsche GT4 drivers are fickle? Or, is it bought by people so they can say they have owned one safe in the knowledge that they can own it, drive a few K and then sell it on at no overall loss, or a profit, to themselves?  I mean its not like Porsche has brought out a better model to make them want to change, and actually, how many of them change to another Porsche?  The intimation on the 430CUP thread was that a number of GT4 drivers have swapped to a Lotus!

How many of these people bought the supposedly finest drivers car in a spec and colour that was dictated by resale value recommendation from the dealer, as opposed to the car they really wanted?

I'm not knocking the GT4 here. What I am curious about or what I do find strange, is just the approach and attitude to this car from many owners.  Is image so important, or,  is it the driving that is important?  

[Swiss380Cup]

@C8RKH Status is a big thing with Porsches that's for sure. Several of my former Porsche mates, having owned 3 GT3s and one Turbo S, still do not understand why I changed to Lotus.... for me it's clear, the raw experience, the facing car feel, the light weight, being definitely different, etc etc etc you know better.

Regarding the 27 second hand GT4 for sale in CH, I don't know. CH is known to be a market where proportionately they sell many more super cars than elsewhere in Europe. Being for resale with a profit or no less, there has been some speculation, but eventually it didn't really prove. You have GT4 which are in my opinion appropriately priced and not overpriced... Maybe former Cayman owners moved on to that model but felt it was a little too much for them.

I have no clue at all..... 

[The Pits]

Lots of talk of people getting 'irresistable deals' on Cayman GT4 at the moment. Yes prices in the classifieds remain all over the place, not consistent at all.

Also a lot of cars for sale with less than 300 miles currently. Selling at this sort of level means there has been no interest in how it drives whatsoever. These cars are all a purely financial punt. Asking prices don't seem to vary much between 0-2000 miles so it seem strange that they didn't at least bother to see what the car is like and what all the fuss is about. The cheapest GT4 is from a dealer asking £78k for a 13,867 mile car. Clearly there's a lot of mileage anxiety out there. Goes against the very notion of being a driver's car.

Sadly Lotus and their owners are not immune to this either. Among V6 Cups mine was considered quite high mileage at 17,000 miles which is ridiculous. Quite a few Cups were trailered to tracks I guess but the cars hold their values really well from a used buy perspective, may as well put some miles on them and enjoy. They are also very durable cars as I'm sure the GT4 is. Many V6 Cups were for sale sub 5000 miles. I suppose they don't lend themselves to long journeys without sound deadening and for some they are just too extreme and get left in the garage. I have a friend who bought a V6 Cup, he liked the idea of it but he couldn't really fit in it so it sat unused in his garage for a year or so! Cayman is one size fits all though, can't apply there.

Lots of complaints about depreciation on here at the moment, no-one likes it but my advice is at least get some miles to show for it. My V6 Cup cost me just over £4000 a year but for that I drove it all over the Alps, through France, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Italy and Austria. It lapped the Nurburgring, Spa, Silverstone GP, Brands Hatch GP, Donington Park, Hethel test track, Goodwood, Castle Combe, Zolder. All experiences worth a lot to me. Once the car is gone all you have is memories. May as well go and make some good ones. 

[Swiss380Cup]

@The Pits A lot is about "speculation" lately on cars....e.g there are 58 991 GT3 + RS for sale on autoscout24.ch ....... it's an awful lot of cars, some with 100 kms.....new....Some have been sitting, especially the RS for over a year with unrealistic prices..... sometimes people will realize that such car are for maxi fun and entertainment, not for entertainment purposes.

I drive my cars as much as I can in all conditions, even for daily routines, as soon as I can, mostly outside of work since otherwise I use the train and public transportation....

Drive drive drive that's the purpose of owning such cars..and when you see it in front of your house that's what it's asking for....

[C8RKH]

Great few posts here @The Pits and also @Swiss380Cup.  

I don't buy the "couldn't fit in it" comment re the V6 Cup.  I'm a generously proportioned pie eating northern git and I doubt he is any bigger than me (I made @jayemm look like a super model!) but I get into a VX220 OK (albeit I do need to fold the roof over so I can step in and slide down the seat lol) and find the VX220 super comfortable and snug for drives of 1 - 4 hours.  

I guess it is more down to what you want from a car. The VX220 is a raw, visceral experience and for that i will put up with the entry/exit "hassle". I guess some people want performance and luxury - probably why RS4, RS6, M3 and M4 cars sell so well.  It's like car stereos and the crazy money people spend to get great sound in the car.  If i want great sound I'll buy a hifi and sit in the house with a nice sherry or claret and listen to it. But in a car, meh! Totally pointless - only thing i really need is satnav and speed camera warnings and maybe a nice Torque screen. @TBD has it right with his android play/Joyful units.

I'd love an Exige cup - V6, 360, 380 or 430 (or an Elise Cup for that matter) - the variant wouldn't really bother me as long as it gave me that raw, visceral driving experience and made me feel very much alive and a part of the car.  I have to admit that so far the best mod to my VX220, bar nothing, was to put harnesses in it.  I've never owned a car with them before. But when you are strapped in tight, and out on the road or track, driving the damn thing, my god, you actually feel as though you are fully integrated. An integral part or component of the car.  It's amazing the difference it makes.

So, I am surmising from the responses, and my own experiences/views, that the feeling is that those who really like to drive, and drive hard, eventually find their way to a Lotus. At that point one of two things happen. (1) they fall in love with the driving "feel" and the theatre of rawness which allows them to put up with the less than plush interior (elise and exige) and the lack of all sorts of bloated gimmicks or (2) they decide that image and comfort is more important to them than real driving and driving satisfaction and go to a Porsche.  This is not implying the lotus is better than the porsche or vice versa. just that for different people they are the best option. As an aside, I've never been fond of the Cayman's shape. But the latest and newest Boxster. Well, even I have to admit that it does look like an exceedingly nice car. Until i look through the window and then realise it is basically the same as just about any other German car - dark, functional, boring, but well done and well screwed together.  Horses for courses i guess.

[Swiss380Cup]

@C8RKH I'm afraid we're living in a world where status and image is everything.... unfortunately car manufacturers do not work for people like us....so we can still be happy to have Lotus motels to buy, and hopefully it'll stay so in the near future, at least until I can sit in and drive one..... for me 400 HP and 1'000 kgs would just be perfect.... Just that, no stéreo no sound deadening, harnesses and roll cage (carbon please...).... but I'm very happy with the 2 Exiges I've had so far, and my guess is I'll have more of the same in the future....But it's a 2nd or 3rd car, so for people who can't afford to have several cars, you have to ressort to Audi, BMW, etc. to get power and everyday usability.... maybe Lotus should have a baby Evora, like an Elise for those ???? Porsche did the Cayman/Boxster/Cayman for a purpose I guess....

[Swiss380Cup]

But it's the same story at Porsche Clubs... people who love their cars and never go on a track with it. People who go from time to time, especially on the sunny ones in South of France or Italy to have a mix of car fun and beach fun, and those piston heads who always want something better, tune their cars, complain about Zuffhausen policy, price, marketing, cars, etc. etc. etc. etc. 

The same all over. It must be the same for BMW, Audi, Mercedes fans also..... Porsche/Lotus/BMW/Audi/Mercedes/GM should have done this that, not this not that.... too heavy, too much electronic, not enough comfort, crappy interior, VW parts in a Porsche, a Cayenne is a detuned Touareg, bla bla bla, etc. etc. etc...

And in the meantime, manufacturers try to make money and find where the dough is and how to extract it from us...

My opinion, as far as my tastes are, is that Lotus has done a pretty awesome job for me. Light, powerful, racing feeling, etc.... I just want that they go on like that until 1'000 HP and 500 kgs..... 

A very big advantage we have over other brands customers is that literally it could be possible for each customer to have a chat with Mr Galès or someone up the hierarchy, forget about that with other brands. I'm sure Lotus listens very well.... I don't see why they have come up with the Charged cool 430 Cup if they didn't listen .... 

[LF1]

I think the low mileage ones are people who were trying to make a buck and did not give too hoots about driving them, which is the fundamental problem with the Porsche. The GT4 is incredibly spec dependent, not having the CS and LWBS options kills the value. Some people think the PCCB are worth a lot which is why you see those cars very highly prices (and usually privately), those who actually drive them don't want the PCCB. I believe second hand buyers now are also holding out for their perfect spec. Like us these people are not buying as an investment but to drive - they realise that the value at best will stay relatively flat or dip when the new one comes out in the next 18 months (yes we all have a good idea when our car will be superseded and confidence in that - another debate we can leave elsewhere).

I will say there really are a lot of people that actually drive them, look how many are on track days - it is good to see. Equally there are a large number of Lotus owners who sit them in a garage and poilish the, sell a couple of years later with barely running in mileage. Do we give them stick for that - no, we appreciate everyone wants something different out of a car and respect it.

But I am sorry, when it comes to a Lotus if you put any miles on it then you kill the value, and heaven forbid you take it near a track. I've been caught out on this twice, the warranty situation does not help. Porsche on the other hand give you a bumper to bumper warranty regardless of track use, and the actively encourage it. They don't question warranty claims if it's been near a track. I was offered a GT4 build slot for the simple reason our dealer knew we used the one and only porsche we'd previously bought as intented and they really liked that fact.

So where do I sit, well I have no intention of taking it on track, it's an absolutely awesome road car and we had our best ever alpine trip in it - we go every year, taken both a V6 and the Elise Cup and now the Porsche. Its performance is perfect for getting the most out of it on the road without it being stupid, nice comfort level and a wonderful engaging drive. I have no doubt the Evora would be a very similar experience. In my mind it cemented the decision we made to buy it. I've never had a car I just want to go out and drive on the road as much since having the Z4M. The Lotus i want to take out on the track, they are unbeatable for that, but I have no interest in road driving the Elise and the V6 was just lunacy to have fun on the road with, it was just too compotent. The GT4 you can play around on the limit so much easier - sure this probably means the limit is a much slower pace on track than the V6 and then potentially slower lap times, but for the road it's spot on. 

I've kind of stayed out of this debate (even though I was perceived as the fire started) because it's pretty pointless discussing any merits of the GT4 here. We are lucky enough to be able to have a track car and a nice road sports car, and right now for us the Elise and the GT4 are the perfect combination.

So in short this summer when considering the 380 Cup/410/GT430/GT4, and now having the benfit of hindsight for the first time ever I feel I really made the right descision with a car purchase/sale a few months after doing so. And believe it or not if I felt otherwise I would admit it here.

[French Frie]

you mean 1,000 kgs and 500 bhp  ?!

I second @The Pits that it's all about driving cars... that's what we (french) called it autoMOBILE in 1866  !

I just can't figure out how you can own such a car and not drive it ! I've got several car, a rather busy business, and I manage to drive my toys for about 25,000 km each year (and about 35,000 more with "normal" cars) ... and what beautiful memories it makes ! 

 

[LF1]

1 minute ago, French Frie said:

I just can't figure out how you can own such a car and not drive it ! I've got several car, a rather busy business, and I manage to drive my toys for about 25,000 km each year (and about 35,000 more with "normal" cars) ... and what beautiful memories it makes ! 

I repeat my point, I bet there are more Lotus with next to no miles on them than GT4 for their age. I have the same feeling about those - why on earth would you have a car like that and sit it in a garage, polish and not drive it. But that's up to the owner and their reason for buying it and we should respect it. I have no problem with any car being bought as a piece of art, hell any Lotus is a beautiful piece of art. But please, let's not just have a go at Porsche owners who do that.

Equally I speak to so many people with these cars with no interest on taking them on track, even though they've added a gazillion hp and special magic trick suspension to the car. We're all different.

[C8RKH]

I get your point Tom that there are both Porsche and Lotus owners who do not use their wonderful cars enough. Indeed, I benefitted from this myself when 2.5 years ago I bought a 2010 Evora with just 15k miles on it. That was about 3k miles a year average!  Why oh why would anyone have a modern wonderful drivers car like that and just stick it in the garage and polish it (or not!).  So I do agree with you there are owners of both Porsche and Lotus being similar - some being drivers and some being polishers

However, the thing that taints it slightly for me about Porsche is how many people buy it as an "investment" and the perceived "snobbery" around ownership - it's a production car for christ's sake....

I do think you can have a sensible debate on here re the GT4, and indeed, several people are trying to keep it sensible but then you do get the odd idjeet who just seems to want to flame things up.  We are have preferences and passions, but the key is to keep it respectful and be clear when you are just taking the piss for  a laugh or effect. 

I for one don't doubt the GT4 is a really accomplished car.  I would not want one myself as I just have never liked the Cayman shape.  Just never got on with it.

I have to admit though, even I would consider a new shape Boxster GT4!  I'd actually find that quite hard to resist as I do like the exterior of the new boxster and some of the neat design touches. the interior is a bit bland and meh, but i could live with it. But at the end of the day, I'd go for a 410 Evora or a 360/380 Cup Exige or a 250/260 Cup Elise instead.  Heart would rule head. And it would be a toy anyway for my personal enjoyment and fun and stuff what anyone else thought. It also very much depends on what life stage you are at and financial power you have.  I'm at the stage with grown up kids that it is very much now about me. oh and me, me and me again.  SWMBO has no interest in cars so gets no say whatsoever in what cars I do or don't buy, how much I spend on them, etc. but then she has her own hobbies to that I do not interfere with. Not everyone is as fortunate as me in having an understanding wife who accepts i am special! 

I love seeing Porsche cars racing. The Porsche Cup is truly a great racing series with some well talented drivers and it's great to see the cars out there being driven as they were intended and raced hard. I think the motorsport branding and heritage of Porsche is up there with Ferrari, and also Lotus, McLaren and others. So I am not blind to the brand. It's just not a club I fancy joining. maybe i need to get to some more grass roots porsche events to meet some real enthusiast owners and that may change my opinion of the brand from an ownership perspective. Don't know what it is about cars, they are an emotive acquisition when they are toys are not they not. No rational and sane person would ever really buy one would they. After all, a normal car still gets you from A to B......

[The Pits]

Only going by the classifieds where the highest mileage GT4 is 13k miles. You'll see for yourself Tom what happens when you put some miles on your GT4. I can't agree that "there are more Lotus with next to no miles on them than GT4 for their age." The classifieds say otherwise.

I also challenge the idea that putting 'any miles' on a Lotus 'kills the value'. They depreciate, much like many other new cars do outside the Porsche bubble. If you use them and put miles on you get a return for that cost. If you don't you'll take a hit. Just like you would if you bought any other kind of Cayman. Buying used, Lotus offer pretty spectacular residuals by all accounts, better than a non-GT Porsche I'm quite sure.

I personally don't enjoy seeing lots of expensive german cars on trackdays, I can't help but think that's all money the British sports car brands could have put to better use. I'm proud to support Lotus, there are some great and very talented people up there. Mostly through snobbery they are under-appreciated in the UK. Buying a Porsche is just jumping on a bandwagon that neither wants or needs you there. Both great drivers cars in different ways so other factors come into the decision process. If I really didn't care where the cars were built I could imagine seeing the Lotus as more of a risk and the GT4 the safe bet. Just can't see myself in a Cayman though, however good!

[Bassman]

@ThePits and @C8RKH - agree with pretty much everything you've both said - I posted some thoughts on V6 Cup ownership earlier in October but would like to reiterate: I bought a Lotus because it's a Lotus not a Porsche. Coming up to 20,000 miles now and will keep driving the wheels off it. Pure visceral fun!

[Gashead1105]

I don't have the money for it and I'd probably get a 400 if I did (because loud and slidey), but the 13 (almost 14k) mileage GT4 is at Colchester and was previously owned by a youtube non-personality. I rather like it at that price (it's a shame it doesn't have the buckets) - would love to actually have a drive in one because I suspect it will be a rather lovely thing. And like Tom I have seen plenty on trackdays so there are plenty that are being properly used.

ETA: on the non-use point, I've done 1,500 miles in my Exige in the past 12 months. Which is a bit crap. But still better than my father in law, who's done a grand total of 60 miles between MoTs in his 997! He get's enough pleasure from polishing it (to an inch of its life) and simply knowing that it is in the garage, and I appreciate that. While declaring it 'ornamental' at regular intervals.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Gashead1105