New 410 musings - Ex Cayman

[aus-exigent]

14 hours ago, Spinney said:

I’ve been reading this thread with more than just a passing interest since jonnyboy started it as I’m waiting for delivery of my own new 410.

Without seeing the roof blemish he has spoken of, I’m not going to pass any comment, one way or the other, but one recurring theme running throughout though is how this blemish is completely unacceptable on an £80k car and how Lotus need to up their game if they intend playing with the big boys. Now whilst I agree that any new car should be blemish free I’ve spent an interesting hour or so this afternoon reading several owners stories about panel corrosion on almost new McLarens. Some owners have been complaining of oxidisation under the paint causing bubbling in several aluminium panels on cars only a few months old. 

All manufacturers should continually strive to improve quality but given these are cars costing in excess of £150k, it does kind of put some of the reported QC issues with Lotus into perspective. 

Seems as though I’ve maybe dodged a bullet by choosing the Lotus over the McLaren. 😂

Paint bubbling was also an issue for Astons.

[Spinney]

Yes and some Ferraris too apparently, if the threads I was reading on Pistonheads were anything to go by.

[C8RKH]

@Spinney I found myself reading a thread last night on the 991.GT3 on PH.  Seems like a whole bunch of issues with the engine (several owners reporting needing new engines from Porsche, issues with some trim, etc.) mostly serious. Sorts of put stuff into perspective when even the mighty Porsche has such serious issues.

I'm not trivialising the carbon roof panel issues - indeed, my own 410 carbon roof has some issues that I can live with - but perspective helps.

[EGTE]

Plus some GT4/Spyder gearboxes are now failing, too.

[C8RKH]

Oh dear. Wonder if some of the Porsche lovers know more about it and are willing to share? They're usually the first to shout about Lotus failings after all and how wonderful Porsche's are v Lotus.

 

https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=940993

[jonnyboy]

On 21/07/2018 at 13:44, mdavies said:

Without getting into what to do now - well discussed above - I’m with Jon’s perspective on this.

Buying a new car consists of “buying a car” and “buying NEW!”

Many options for the first bit - including saving some/a lot of money in comparison with the new price+OTR.  Demo cars, Almost New <1,000 miles, One Owner <4,000 miles, and the whole range of SH. Many options will include examples near indistinguishable from new - but they will not be NEW!

The NEW bit is unique. A car is, or it isn’t. NEW is special, emotionally charged, probably a process of months, building  from the first pang of wanting though battles between heart and head until the “not sensible but I only live once” commitment; something special for me, unsullied by others; “perfect”, that’s what I’m paying for.  So asking whether it will be blemished is not a likely thought - it’s “NEW!”  Then the waiting.

When collection day comes “love is blind”. How can anyone see their love object through other than adoring eyes?  Inspect it for flaws? That’s what you do for SH - but this is NEW!

So when some sad reality strikes, it’s not a matter of “a car worth a bit less”, or that “some compromise must be made because the rest of it great”, or “the flaw can be hidden this way.”  No, it’s totally ruined - the NEWness has not been fulfilled. It never was truly NEW.  I could have bought an “almost new” one to the same spec. more cheaply.......I really don’t care any more.

A few £K’s “compensation” is no compensation - I’ve lost my “NEW car”.

PS: Happened to me: a gearbox fault on a brand new Quality Make (not Lotus). Crashed gears several times on the way home. “This can’t be happening; must be that I’m not used to the clutch action.” A couple of days before I admitted the fault to myself. In the end I accepted that the oil had been analysed for metal, the fix done and the warranty extended to four years. But the car was never the same for me.  Sympathy Jon.

I think this sums it it up well really. Yes I accept that other manufacturers have issues. Indeed Porsche did supply chocolate engines on the GT3 but they did revise it not once but 3 times and gave everyone a 10 year warranty. They stepped up and protected their product. 

Be in no doubt that the Evora is a truly superb car. I wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't the best 80k I could have spent. I've been without the car now for 5 weeks. The whole ownership has been spoilt for me not just with the carbon issues but don't forget the other 10 items on the list. The fact it had to go down to Bristol. And had two previous dealer visits even before then! I would bet that it's now being stored outside at which I dont even want to think about as I wanted to keep the car pristine. A dream summer has been missed.

Not a lot to add really I wish I could turn the clock back I definitely would not buy another new Lotus until they have made significant improvements in quality control, aftercare and their dealership network. 

I'll update if anything happens but I'm not holding my breath. No solution has been put forward as yet. 

 

[stephenwhyte]

26 minutes ago, jonnyboy said:

I think this sums it it up well really. Yes I accept that other manufacturers have issues. Indeed Porsche did supply chocolate engines on the GT3 but they did revise it not once but 3 times and gave everyone a 10 year warranty. They stepped up and protected their product. 

Be in no doubt that the Evora is a truly superb car. I wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't the best 80k I could have spent. I've been without the car now for 5 weeks. The whole ownership has been spoilt for me not just with the carbon issues but don't forget the other 10 items on the list. The fact it had to go down to Bristol. And had two previous dealer visits even before then! I would bet that it's now being stored outside at which I dont even want to think about as I wanted to keep the car pristine. A dream summer has been missed.

Not a lot to add really I wish I could turn the clock back I definitely would not buy another new Lotus until they have made significant improvements in quality control, aftercare and their dealership network. 

I'll update if anything happens but I'm not holding my breath. No solution has been put forward as yet. 

 

So let me get this right - you’re paying for a car that you don’t actually have....?! How can that be right......?😢

[jonnyboy]

Oh yes I'm not sure if that was totally clear in my earlier posts but yes I have not had the car for 5 weeks now. 3 weeks of warranty stuff and now I guess they are just holding it in limbo during 2 weeks of shoulder shrugging. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by jonnyboy

[tim_marra]

1 hour ago, jonnyboy said:

Be in no doubt that the Evora is a truly superb car. I wouldn't have bought it if it wasn't the best 80k I could have spent. I've been without the car now for 5 weeks. The whole ownership has been spoilt for me not just with the carbon issues but don't forget the other 10 items on the list. The fact it had to go down to Bristol. And had two previous dealer visits even before then! I would bet that it's now being stored outside at which I dont even want to think about as I wanted to keep the car pristine. A dream summer has been missed.

I do have some empathy with your situation, but you really need to get control of any possible outcome. I find it quite incredible to read that on the one hand you have lost interest and left it to the finance company, and on the other hand you complain about how long you have been without your car and without knowing progress.

You can't have it both ways. If you want the car, take some control and negotiate. If you don't want the car then state your only acceptable solution and push for it. Doing neither and complaining on here is not the answer. I'd like to see you as a happy owner, but your current actions do nothing to help your case.

Sorry.

[jonnyboy]

Tim. I have spent 80k on a car that I haven't seen for 5 weeks do you not think think I'm trying to reach a resolution. Seriously? 

Yes I have lost interest in it but I have tried to get updates etc. there is a difference. There is a LOT in the process that I have not documented in this thread. I'm not just sat waiting for the phone to ring I can assure you. You are reading the situation completely wrong. 

[C8RKH]

I agree with @jonnyboy here. My care went in for it's 1k service many weeks ago. The dealer agreed to two major items being warranty claims and took photo's and sent the stuff to Lotus. I have chased and waited for an update for weeks. Finally got an update last week to say that one of the items has been accepted now, but now Lotus have said they want even more photo's so that's another two week delay.  The issue is the dealer see's the issues first hand, Lotus are remote and are relying on photo's - where's the trust between Lotus and the dealer? Meanwhile, I am left chasing the Dealer for answers and the thing just goes on and on....

So, I can see where @jonnyboy is coming from and @tim_marra I actually found your post quite antagonistic to be honest.  

[tim_marra]

Ok Jonny, great. That wasn't how it read to me in your posts, and thanks for clarifying. I really do hope you keep the car having reached an acceptable outcome 

And C8RKH, does the factory not have the previous coverage of field engineers for your issue(s)?

Edited July 22, 2018 by tim_marra

[JayEmm]

I once did the maths and within my first 3 or 4 months of ownership my 400 was being worked on for something like 25% of the time.

Seeing as one of my aims when starting my channel etc... had been to disprove this well known Lotus acronym, I found it somewhat irritating.

Two years later and I am still making visits to Hethel to get things sorted.

[jonnyboy]

Working on it Tim. We need to see something during this coming week. I think 6 weeks with the car away would be really something beyond unfair really. 

Just for reference my expectations at this level would have been no less than covered transport with a roughly equivalent loan car for the whole duration the car was away. I got the covered transport and two broken promises of a loan car.  3 weeks ago I was on the understanding the car was coming back. At the moment there is no explanation available as to why it's been held but I will update if that information is given to me. 

 

[tim_marra]

Thanks Jonny, as I said before I hope it all works out and you enjoy your fantastic car 

[jonnyboy]

Just now, JayEmm said:

I once did the maths and within my first 3 or 4 months of ownership my 400 was being worked on for something like 25% of the time.

Seeing as one of my aims when starting my channel etc... had been to disprove this well known Lotus acronym, I found it somewhat irritating.

Two years later and I am still making visits to Hethel to get things sorted.

Yes that's quite telling. I just read through the first couple of pages of this thread just to remind myself why I started it. I genuinely wanted this tread to be a reference point for people that were in Porsches to open their eyes a bit to Lotus and consider buying one. Porsche guys are even worse than TLFers for being blinkered!   I wish it was an option just to get another new one that would have been a reasonably clean solution and although I do have a replacement Porsche lined up (PDK GTS Cayman)  just in case  butI would really just like my lovely 410 back! I don't think the GT410s look as nice and I wouldn't want to put more cash in to rectify the problem although I understand this is an option people have taken up in the past with other cars.  It's frustrating and I know people (myself included) face far worse things in life but if something's not right it's not right and that's all there is to it. Slamming the door abrubtly shut on your customers is never going to end well. 

[C8RKH]

After 8 weeks of formal notification to the manufacturer you can then take your "claim" or "issues" to the Motor Society Ombudsman.

 

@tim_marra I can only wish that the roving "field engineers" decide to rove!  It's a 120 mile round trip but I'd do it IF I knew an engineer was to be at my local dealer.

[EGTE]

Damn, this is a sad read.

Lotus must have spare courtesy cars at the very least, ffs.

I had considered treating myself to a new Evora, but definitely won't be, now.

[Bibs]

It's a bit tricky running an £80k+ car as a courtesy car in fairness, and also this is a dealers responsibility, not Lotus cars.

[PaulCP]

Yep, purchase contract is with the dealer not Lotus.

Legally the entire responsibility for rejection/correction is the dealers, they will just try to get Lotus to support them back to back before making a decision hence the delay. It is up to the dealer to push Lotus not Jon.

[EGTE]

Fair point about courtesy car, but I'm sure Jonnyboy would have been happy with something quite a bit less than £80K (e.g. "just" an NA, like mine).

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, EGTE said:

Damn, this is a sad read.

Lotus must have spare courtesy cars at the very least, ffs.

I had considered treating myself to a new Evora, but definitely won't be, now.

I've said that a few times re the role of the dealers but everyone keeps harping on re Lotus.....

Don't let it put you off @EGTE I know a couple of people who have recently bought new 400's who are delighted with their cars, no issues....

[Breeze]

I only have good things to say about Lotus warranty.  My 2015 old, slow, heavy and tortoise like Evora S Sr had a blister problem on the rear clam when I bought it. It was reported at pick up, but I was unable to get back to the UK for 18 month. B&C attended to the rectification work, and did a very good job of it. Unfortunately, the blisters came back again 5 months later. Photos were sent off. Lotus agreed to replace the rear clam at the factory. The job took less than 10 days, and I'm very happy with the work carried out and with the helpfulness of all involved.  

Carbon is a different matter though because of the very visible nature of it. Personally, I don't like the look of carbon, and dislike the fact that it really does go off badly after a few years in bright sun / hot climates. I think in time, all those with carbon panels will probably have to paint them over in any event.  I'm sorry you've had all these problems though, and hope you will be able to resolve them in time with the guys at lotus.

[jonnyboy]

9 hours ago, EGTE said:

Fair point about courtesy car, but I'm sure Jonnyboy would have been happy with something quite a bit less than £80K (e.g. "just" an NA, like mine).

An Elise would have been more than adequate. 

[jonnyboy]

11 hours ago, EGTE said:

Damn, this is a sad read.

Lotus must have spare courtesy cars at the very least, ffs.

I had considered treating myself to a new Evora, but definitely won't be, now.

This may be Stockholm syndrome but even with all the hassles and extended period of  abandonment I have experienced and even my previous advice to "just buy a Porsche" I could still not advise you to completely rule out buying an Evora just purely because it's a very very good car to drive.  Being separated from it for so long has reinforced to me what a truly great car it is. 

My revised advise after many weeks to sit and consider the situation would be to either buy a used one or by all means order a new one but inspect it meticulously/forensically or pay someone to do that for you before you accept delivery of it. Do not assume as I did (as a time served indie dealer in the Lotus world if you din't know) that everything will be more or less right with it. I would treat any new Lotus with the level of caution you would if you were buying it from a bloke you had just met in a pub who may also be selling fresh cuts of meat from a sports holdall.