Future of the Evora in the USA

[Julian73]

On 24/04/2019 at 09:37, TpupNomad said:

Regarding the car I'll wait and see what the final spec and pricing looks like and then consider it.  Love the look of the 430, 400 not so much.  I agree that Lotus Cars USA and/or Lotus Cars has not handled this well.  I've ordered many, many cars and this experience is not optimal.  In my experience with other brands, primarily Porsche, you put down a deposit on a "hot" car well before it is released.  When it's released and the dealer gets an allocation you build and submit your order.  In this case I put a deposit down on the Evora 430 based on rumor.  I then got a call and an order sheet that had to be back to Lotus in 24-48 hours.  At that point I had no pics and no specs or pricing.  A week or so later I got specs and pricing (I think from another dealer).  In typical Lotus fashion I got the call yesterday regarding the front and spoiler and was told I needed to re-submit or confirm my order in 24 hours.  Again, I had to ask for pics to see what the car would look like and I got a rendering which looks like Photoshop or something.  I know of several US deposits that have asked for their money back.  I think Lotus would have better luck with an organized approach including full specs, pricing and pics.

I have ordered two previous Lotus based on deposit to secure spot.  1st one the spec was set in a flyer but price was ytbd, 2nd US spec of the 410 was somewhat vague, price was set but we didn't know what was standard or optional but it worked out.  This time us deposit placers we were supposed to have a hands on intro to the car in the flesh, that fell though and we ended as per TpupNomands tale, although I dropped out earlier.

[Julian73]

7 hours ago, ken2020 said:

We are stupid. You are correct. We are stupid for wanting the same car that the rest of the world can buy.

The problem with the Evora is Lotus and their lack of effort in the US.  Selling a model with a 3-5 year old front end is unsatisfactory at best. Most dealers have 2 cars a manual and a automatic. The manual sold. The automatics didn’t.  The cars are a mix of parts. Then they wonder why. Why do they have 2 year old cars sitting unsold. One 400 comes with one rear deck, then the next 400  comes with a different deck without a update or notice. It’s whatever parts they have in the bins.

American consumers have the internet. We can see what the rest of the world gets for updates.  If they were doing their job, then the 430GT would have been available for the world. Not the world except North America. 

When a company doesn’t update a car for a specific model then the resale market drops.  I didn’t order a 400. I didn’t order a 410.  I ordered and was presented a order form for a Evora 430 with 422hp.  Now it’s turned into a Evora 400 without notice. That is a problem.  

As a Lotus employee commented to me. "The US market. Why do we bother!"

I agree that we were irked around from the first promise of a GT version that new could build from 410 to 430 per options, that we would see and drive in flesh before ordering the launch edition, that turned into the 48 hr fiasco of ok here the options, place order and put 20 % down, "but wait theses options show what is not on the car as an original 430, but if its not listed as an option can we assume the cars comes with the same 430 piece", "no it will be determined later".

From there I don't agree with you statements, we were never promised the 430 cf front end in our market, neither the 410-430 interior and cf seats as the US Sport 410 already proved that as did the Lotus GT410 & GT430 parts lists, crash testing is very very expensive, significantly more for the test instrumentation and crash dummy destruction than the cost of 4 to 8 consumed cars.  Neither we we promised the Ohlin suspension and J hook discs, in fact these seem to have been pulled from the home market too as customer expectations of a race part performing as a no maintenance street part were taxing dealers and factory.

Do we really want $2 mm to be amortized over say 100 cars.  422 vs 430Hp I write off as the same, being that US Hp tests are more rigorous that the euro tests (i.e. same engine same fuel, same effective power = a lower number in SAE units vs DIN units).  Well after the aborted intro, Geely stepped in and requested testing be done to try and get CF front and CF spark seats approved.  No guarantee of performance was offered after all the bumper was not originally designed to US standards, that standard is not the crash test resistance of the car, but that the bumper must withstand a 5 mph crash with NO DAMAGE; well a soft fexible bumper cover with foam behind can pass this, but a rigid piece of CF despite being strong, will probably result in a $5k damaged piece.

 

And the base GT must be optioned up to even get the weight savings and cf issued as standard on the Sport 410.  In light of lack of 430 front passing, it is good to see that Lotus has now adjusted the base price.   The new savings will actually allow you to order and install OEM 430 parts.

 

 

[Julian73]

7 hours ago, The Pits said:

Shouldn't all your anger and frustration be directed towards your Federal crash legistlation? This is nothing new.

 

 

Don't laugh at us, you now have pedestrian crash regulations raising the front ends of cars up above the knees, required crush zones above engine (front eng) for body to be cushioned in fall onto hood, noise standards that eliminate exhaust override buttons. Our air bag and emissions standards this year become your standards next year .. I do hope we don't get the reversal of your upcoming mandatory electric cars.

[C8RKH]

18 minutes ago, Julian73 said:

We are stupid. You are correct. We are stupid for wanting the same car that the rest of the world can buy.

I wouldn't go as far as to say you are all stupid Ken.  However, your crazy federal/state requirements and nanny-state safety laws don't really help a low volume manufacturer do they? And the fact that the small volume manufacturers need to accommodate those fooking looney features means that the rest of the world gets stuck with shite features like what look like bicycle reflectors stuck on each side corner of the bloody car. So whilst you aren't all stupid, their is plenty of American influenced stoopidness that the rest of us have to live with on our Loti!  😂🤣

 

[C8RKH]

20 minutes ago, Julian73 said:

Don't laugh at us, you now have pedestrian crash regulations raising the front ends of cars up above the knees, required crush zones above engine (front eng) for body to be cushioned in fall onto hood, noise standards that eliminate exhaust override buttons. Our air bag and emissions standards this year become your standards next year .. I do hope we don't get the reversal of your upcoming mandatory electric cars.

Yeah well, we decided to do something about that -it was called Brexit - just our bloody politicians then went and screwed that up to!   (yey, do I get a bonus point for getting Brexit in?)

[Bruss]

I think you get a compulsory 2 day ban, and sit in a corner to consider your actions, for mentioning the b word.

[CharlieBrown]

12 hours ago, Brian Braddock said:

US customers are stupid if they think Lotus doesn’t care about their market!

Its a front bumper away from a euro GT430 Sport. Ohlins are available for those that really want them from the UK importers, same for J-hooks, they should be available from AP Racing. Failing that, fit even better aftermarket rotors.

If Lotus didn’t care they’d have fitted the rear wing anyway and sold a car with an aero imbalance. Evidently they do because the lack of wing will cost them sales. Which brings us neatly back to customer intelligence again.

Stupid? ...unless you work for Lotus take it down a notch "Einstein"....Intelligence is not your suit.

Edited April 25, 2019 by CharlieBrown

[CharlieBrown]

10 hours ago, ken2020 said:

We are stupid. You are correct. We are stupid for wanting the same car that the rest of the world can buy.

The problem with the Evora is Lotus and their lack of effort in the US.  Selling a model with a 3-5 year old front end is unsatisfactory at best. Most dealers have 2 cars a manual and a automatic. The manual sold. The automatics didn’t.  The cars are a mix of parts. Then they wonder why. Why do they have 2 year old cars sitting unsold. One 400 comes with one rear deck, then the next 400  comes with a different deck without a update or notice. It’s whatever parts they have in the bins.

American consumers have the internet. We can see what the rest of the world gets for updates.  If they were doing their job, then the 430GT would have been available for the world. Not the world except North America. 

When a company doesn’t update a car for a specific model then the resale market drops.  I didn’t order a 400. I didn’t order a 410.  I ordered and was presented a order form for a Evora 430 with 422hp.  Now it’s turned into a Evora 400 without notice. That is a problem.  

As a Lotus employee commented to me. "The US market. Why do we bother!"

100% agree with you....perhaps Brian Braddock's intelligence is not his best trait. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by CharlieBrown

[Bruss]

The only stupid people here are Lotus, or Lotus America. I suspect the former.

[CharlieBrown]

9 hours ago, andyj007 said:

from reading the above post about the us ordering spec, just wow..  surely that cant be right? looks like   chaotic way to run a business.. = epic fail

surely lotus must have an open dialogue with its dealers? to advise on weekly progress and spec so that they can advise the clients..  we have internet and emails last time i checked?

 

 

2020 US Lotus Evora GT = DOA

[C8RKH]

36 minutes ago, CharlieBrown said:

Not the world except North America

Why not? The US of A has several world series that are for, wait for it, wait for it, the US of A. So what's sauce for the goose and all that, why can't Lotus have a "world" car for anyone apart from the US of A?     🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

[Ccd]

CharlieBrown:

I share your pessimism on the Evora GT.  I have much higher hopes for the new sports car to be unveiled next year and supposedly be available in 2021.  I’d like to see a car available in the USA for which Lotus would actually provide PR support 

[CharlieBrown]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

Why not? The US of A has several world series that are for, wait for it, wait for it, the US of A. So what's sauce for the goose and all that, why can't Lotus have a "world" car for anyone apart from the US of A?     🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

The World Series (Baseball) or when a team wins the Super Bow or NBA Championship, they call themselves World Champions. HAHAHAHA.... Regarding a Lotus car for the US...well, the bread and butter of car manufacturers is the USA. Just ask Lamborghini or Ferrari. 🤑

Edited April 25, 2019 by CharlieBrown

[CharlieBrown]

37 minutes ago, Ccd said:

CharlieBrown:

I share your pessimism on the Evora GT.  I have much higher hopes for the new sports car to be unveiled next year and supposedly be available in 2021.  I’d like to see a car available in the USA for which Lotus would actually provide PR support 

My pessimism comes from experience with Lotus Cars Inc. After 3 Lotus cars I can tell you that even when the cars have warranty and things go wrong with the car... Lotus is a pain in the ass to deal with and get them to approve warranty fixes. They go beyond to deny or ignore the dealer request.

[Julian73]

10 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Why not? The US of A has several world series that are for, wait for it, wait for it, the US of A. So what's sauce for the goose and all that, why can't Lotus have a "world" car for anyone apart from the US of A?     🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

Because Lotus needs our purchasing power.

[C8RKH]

I respectfully disagree. There is a small market in the US for delicate handling, subtle sports cars, like Lotus produces.  The US market for mid-sized sports cars continues to crash with a total of around 450,000 sold in 2018 - circa 435,000 of those were from 3 home grown models - Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger. So that leaves everyone else in the Cayman/Boxster/SLC class fighting for 10-15k or so in sales volumes. Great purchasing power that.

Ferrari sold around 2,600 cars total in the US across all models in 2018. Mclaren around 1,300. Where as Porsche sold 10k 911's in 2018.  

So, higher end is dominated by the US's love affair with the 911 and mid-range sports is dominated by home grown "muscle" cars.  It's a huge uphill task that Lotus faces in the US. I do believe that with Geely they will get there, but it will take quite some time to change attitudes into purchases in the US.

[ramjet]

If I remember correctly, it was an Elise on Top Gear that beat a Mustang (I think it was possibly a Roush) around a racetrack in USA as well.

And if the US public keeps buying Porsche cars, and I believe the GT3 has been mentioned on here as a cheaper competitor with the Evora $'wise and they are willing to accept the strut failures that have been popping up, then so be it I suppose. I know there have not been a lot, but even if it is repaired like for like, it has the potential to happen again. I would not want to guess the cost of the repair once the car is out of warranty.

I don't think I have ever heard of an incident where there has been a structural failure to that degree in a Lotus where the comments have been along the lines of "Wow! That sucks!" and the like.

If that sort of thing happened on a Lotus, the public would be disembowling someone and burning them on a cross for good measure.

But I have been known to be wrong. There was actually an incident just 10 minutes ago..........  

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, ramjet said:

I would not want to guess the cost of the repair once the car is out of warranty.

£4.5 - £7k in UK pounds and I think that was one side only!  So, if it was my car I'd be driving around with a repaired one wondering when the other side was going to go crash.

Then you have the EMS / bore scoring engines that were eating themselves at a cost of about £12-8k out of warranty etc etc. Yes, the old lots of trouble moniker is easily brought up by those who don't jack shit about much....  Porsche are very good keeping this stuff quiet and owners stay quiet as don't want to the truth to get out there and harm their precious residuals.

Meanwhile most Lotus owners just get the car out and drive the flippin' thing hard, zooming past the golf club where the Porsche owners compare the size of their,    erm,     residuals.

 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I don't think the 911 GT3 is a cheaper alternative to the Evora.

[C8RKH]

Base GTS starts at $144k in the USA. Then you need to add paint and extras so I'm not sure you'd walk out of the showroom with one for less than $160k to be honest.

[ramjet]

My apologies. The new Carrera 911S Widebody was mentioned. Not the GT3 or 4's.

I shall now go and sit in the corner.  

[CharlieBrown]

GTS? 🤣🤣🤣 --- We are talking about the 2020 911 Carrera S widebody (443 hp, base price, manual $113,300)

 

On 26/04/2019 at 01:29, Julian73 said:

Because Lotus needs our purchasing power.

True --- They ALL do need the 🇺🇸 $$$$

Edited April 27, 2019 by CharlieBrown

[Brian Braddock]

I thought Lotus ‘didn’t care’ about the US?

One of the very few here with any idea about how the auto industry actually works is Julian73. Those still struggling to get to grips with the basics I suggest they read his recent posts again.

Failing that just keep repeating your own made up conspiracy garbage until you start believing it.

👍

As for the car itself I can understand the disappointment if anyone was led to believe something else. One or two dealers may have gotten carried away and spoken too soon by the sound of it. Under promise and over deliver is always better. But I don’t remember many hating the 400 front bumper with such passion before the new version arrived. I also prefer the new one but the Sport 410 in particular is still a fine, fine looking car by any standards. That US GP Edition is utterly 😍. From what I’ve heard the new base price will be below that. But now you get more power, new carbon rear bumper, bonnet vents and cut away panel behind the front wheels (for improved aero). Wider wheels and tyres too? If so, loads more mechanical grip then too. Carbon parts are optional but that brings the base cost way down. A move that would be very popular with dealers and customers here in Europe. The Sport 410 the carbon roof was only worth 2kg so forget that and save $X000. The glass half empty crew will complain about whatever Lotus puts out there. Full US GT430 would have seen much the same ‘Lotus are stupid, Lotus don’t care’ reaction over the price guaranteed.

From another perspective I’m not sure that what is being offered is such a bad deal. Yes the Evora is far from the fastest car for the money but it’s sure as hell one of the best to drive. That’s a Lotus tradition that goes back to the first one. Not many people ‘get it’ but as is often the case the path less trodden is often the most rewarding. Why else would anyone even think about buying an Evora over a 911 or Corvette? With so many downsides and disadvantages there must be an almighty upside for Lotus to sell even one single car.

[CharlieBrown]

Say the one that doesn't even own a Lotus.

[Bibs]

19 hours ago, CharlieBrown said:

Say the one that doesn't even own a Lotus.

A - What does that have to do with anything? Owning a Lotus is not a prerequisite to having an opinion. 

B - Is that really all you have to say to that entire post? Nothing else in there stir any response with actual substance, opinion, discussion points?