Questions about 1982 Esprit S2

[Paolo_Esprit]

I found an esprit S2 with VIN SCC079907CHH10404. I attach two pictures
The doubts I have are:
a) how is it possible that there are a 1982 Esprit S2? Didn't they start selling the Esprit S3 since 1981?
b) is the chassis galvanized?
c) the exterior of the machine seems to me to be an S3. How is it possible? Has a previous owner changed the exterior ?
d) I can't understand if the interior are the same of a Esprit S2 or the same of a Esprit S3
e) I have called 3 official Lotus Italian dealers, but nobody knows how to tell me the original engine number. I no longer know can help me about original engine number

Thank you a lot

Paolo

[ekwan]

The chassis number says it's a 1979

[drdoom]

Hello Paolo,

The attached photos appear to be of S3 specification: interior trim, bumpers, engine bay scoops and fuel filler cap. 

[ekwan]

6 hours ago, ekwan said:

The chassis number says it's a 1979

My bad....... It's indeed a 1982. Should not depend on my memory.

[Paolo_Esprit]

Thank you a lot for the answers.
So is it really possible that Lotus built an 1982 Esprit S2 chassis?
Why is an S2 chassis fitted with S3 body and interiors? Is it possible that the car was built with the S3 body from Lotus?

[Bibs]

They wouldn't have used a non-galv S2 chassis in 1982, they wouldn't have had any left I would have thought! 

The S2 was still available in Italy post 1980 due to not having to re type approve it over there and also for the tax being cheaper on 2.0l engines. The S4 and S4s were available later as 2.0l rather than 2.2l and there's even a Turbo SE with a 2.0l engine which went to Italy. Essentially what you have there is an S3 but labelled an S2 for type approval/tax reasons.

[Paolo_Esprit]

I read about the S4 with 2.0l engine instead 2.2l engine for tax restrictions (another Italian story..).
In your opinion, should the chassis be an S3 (derived from the Turbo Esprit) but labeled as S2? Can I check any differences between an S2 chassis and an S3 chassis to be sure?
I haven't bought the car yet, but the S3 body and the S2 labeled chassis frighten me.
I tried to ask the seller if the car was modified, but the current owner is a relative of the previous owner (dead) and does not know any details about the life of the machine (another Italian story..)

Thank you a lot
Paolo

[Bibs]

I got that information above from a quick phone call to Lotus for you. My last sentence is key.

Quote

Essentially what you have there is an S3 but labelled an S2 for type approval/tax reasons.

An easy way to check the chassis is to look at it, the galvanisation is very obvious if it's not too dirty. 

[drdoom]

3 hours ago, Bibs said:

I got that information above from a quick phone call to Lotus for you. My last sentence is key.

An easy way to check the chassis is to look at it, the galvanisation is very obvious if it's not too dirty. 

An even more obvious detail would be the rear suspension/axle layout. S3 will have CV joints, S2 will have fixed length axles on U-joints. Bibs theory seems sound, the tax treatment in Italy regarding engine displacement is well known and Lotus have always been clever at managing such things.

[Paolo_Esprit]

Thank you so much guys! Now I just have to find the engine serial to be sure it's the factory one (the official Italian Lotus dealers can't help me).

Edited September 6, 2019 by Paolo_Esprit

[Advantage]

It's on five stud wheels. 

[drdoom]

9 hours ago, Advantage said:

It's on five stud wheels. 

Of course! Preoccupied with restoration work here, should have spotted that.

[silverfrost]

S3   all day long,   side repeaters, fuel filler caps, 5 stud wheels,  air intakes, interior and bumpers,  Either that or some crazy person has done the most work i have ever seen to make an s2 look like an s3 lol .

 

[Paolo_Esprit]

Thanks again guys.
So, I can recognize the chassis for the from the driveshaft type and looking for the galvanization.

Regarding to understand if the engine is the original one: I have read that in the S3 there should be a bar code label fixed to the bulkhead in the front luggage compartment that also shows the engine number. It's really like this? Do the S2 have a bar code label like that?

I have another question for you: bearing in mind that the motor has to be rectified and rebuild, how much can a machine be worth in these conditions? 7000 euros?

Thank you a lot

Paolo

[silverfrost]

Hi Paolo,

  You will find no bar codes on a G car i can assure you

VIN   vehicle identifaction number is on a plate that you can see when looking under the front bonnet,  the wheel arch area from the inside,  always on the passenger side on uk cars,  i presume the same on export cars also.  This will have the chassis number, engine number , paint code and transmission number stamped on in IIRRC.

The chassis number is also stamped on the chassis on the last upright at the front right by the radiator it is on the drivers side,  but if export it will be classed as the passenger side.

Obviously the engine number is stamped on the engine also and the trans is stamped.

7000 euros !   i personally would snap someones hand off without even  considering the cars condtion for that figure.  But just make sure the numbers on the paperwork match up.

 

[Paolo_Esprit]

The owner asks for a higher amount. The car has been stopped for many years with the engine removed. 7000 euro was my assessment trying to keep in mind all the restoration work. Thanks for your opinion.

[silverfrost]

The problem is Paolo is the car is a lhd and more rare and desirable in your part of the world,  even in the UK a project car even with the engine removed would go for more than 7000 euros,  used parts prices are expensive now due to the project cars raising in value over the last few years even the really bad project ones fetch good money ,  even a bare bones chassis and body shell with documents  go for circa 3 to 4 k sadly.

[Paolo_Esprit]

Today I went to see the car.
As in previous posts, in the luggage compartment there is a label that also indicates the engine number and original paint. In addition, the official dealer Lotus Torino  tell me the original engine number (which corresponded to the plate on the machine).

The chassis seems galvanized (it has no rust) and seems to be just an S3.
The frame number seems to be the same of the label but it is not clearly legible, I do not know if it is the norm

Unfortunately I discovered that the engine (damaged) is not the original one. Indeed, the engine sold together with the car has no serial number! We checked well. I believe it has been removed
To finish: the original color was L42 calypso red, not yellow.

Now I don't know what to do. In Italy the aspirated S3 are the least quoted among all the Esprits. Much less than a Turbo or an S2. The owner now asks for 10000 euros.

In your opinion, does the non-original engine have a significant influence on the value of the machine?

Thanks a lot
Paolo

[silverfrost]

Hi Paolo,

   If the engine number has been removed it would probably the last owner getting ready to install a used engine from another car and stamp the old cars engine number on it from the logbook !    So i would be 99 percent certain that this is not the cars original engine,   the problem with this is now you have an engine with no number,  so you cant just stamp any old number on,  you could stamp the logbook engine number on.  bit of a rock and a hard place.

Does this affect the price ?   Yes it does indeed,  the car is not worth as much with a non factory engine,  also the engine for sale at the moment has no number,  given it has no number stamped on, and the fact it is not fitted in the car,  it may be scrap, damaged from storage due to enviromental effects etc. 

The chassis numbers are hard to read that are stamped on the front of the car,  however iirc the chassis number was always stamped in one line ?  not two,  hopefully others members will comment,   plus the worrying thing to me would be the fact that the damage i.e indentation looks like some heavy handed person with a hammer and stamp have stamped it on.  And not at the factory..........   The red oxide paint gives it away also,  i.e it looks like to me it has had the old chassis number ground off and and restamped,  and to stop corrosion of the freshly ground back metal,  it has been sprayed with red oxide primer ! 

Now used chassis can be replace damaged ones,  it is legal,  but the engine with no number,  red oxide primer and a poorly stamped number do not look good to me.  Or the owner could of possibly sprayed it on to make it more easy to read ?

What made you think it was an S2 in the first place ? 

S3 cars are actually very desirable,  they have the better chassis and suspension than the s2,  sadly not the clean looks,  and better build quality from the factory, 

I would delve more deeply about the history of the car,  also any more pics of it condtion wise ? 

If the engine is damaged you would be better off looking at sourcing a used one, lucky to find one local or try lotusbits.com,  for a used one.

Price wise i think the owner is not far with his price with it been LHD ,  sadly the days of cheap project cars are long gone.

You could always look into importing one from the states as some owners have done,  but this carries even more risk and can be heavy on import taxes etc.

Try and Barter,  maybe 9k.

Good luck

 

 

 

[Paolo_Esprit]

Hi Silverfrost

red oxide paint was sprayed by the owner while he showed me the car to make the chassis number more easy to read.
I also think that a chassis printed by the factory should not appear in those conditions. In my opinion it has been tampered with.
I didn't find any other pictures on the internet related to the codes printed on the chassis

Initially I thought that the machine was an S2 because in the VIN says that this car is a type 79.

I am sure that the engine is not the original one because it was confirmed to me by the owner.

The rear suspension is almost completely disassembled. But I saw the drive shafts (now stored in the front trunk) and are of the S3 with CV join.

The only question mark now is if the chassis number is correct that it is so stamped on the chassis of the car

Thanks you a lot

[DaveyT]

Paulo,

my chassis number is also stamped on two lines like yours, and is also slightly undulating.

engine no on my 82 is here,

 

but its pretty obvious placement so I doubt you've missed it if there!

[Paolo_Esprit]

6 hours ago, DaveyT said:

Paulo,

my chassis number is also stamped on two lines like yours, and is also slightly undulating.

engine no on my 82 is here,

 

but its pretty obvious placement so I doubt you've missed it if there!

Thank you so much DaveyT!
Could I ask you to take the picture of your chiassis number in order to make a comparison with my photo?
I looked for the engine number right above the starter motor bracket, but it was completely smooth, with no code