Turbo options

[Paula&Marcus]

No No John,

I did not start anything. It was not my intention to start any controversals here ...

What you did is that you assumed that I did by implying. But thats simply not true. I did not say that your turbo is doing things that it should not do.

Cheers

Marcus

Marcus:

I didn't start it in public, you did...

I followed up on your public comments...

John Welch

WC Engineering LLC

[Guest Troy Halliday]

Right as you both have posted on here, can we please get you to state what you think the benefits of your Turbo is. Repost each other comments if you will as most modifications are more of an art than science requiring a balance of things to achieve your goal. Therefore there will be differences of opinion and I am sure this will allways be the case with tuning.

So without anyone taking umbridge to the others comments. Which I am sure are not a personal attack, rather more a preference, could you please inform and educate all of us who are genuinely interested in your products. As some people will prefer one set of characteristics over the other anyway it will help us greatly.

Gentleman you have the floor B)

[t70]

SO... from this discussion so far... here's what I read:

Both turbo's spool quicker than stock

Both turbo's produce more power than stock

both turbo's work better in the high rpm range.

Both turbo's have better bearings

Here's what I see as the possible differences:

PUK's will spool quicker and earlier than WC?

However, will PUK's maintain boost at higher RPM?

How long untill the intake temps get too hot on either turbo at what boost pressure?

[DBredS4]

I think they are both great turbos and would have one of each if I could afford them.

[Bibs]

truly.... how does one actually measure this without data? i.e. how long does it take to spool from 0 psi to 15 psi at 2000 rpm start in 2nd gear? and then we will need a dyno graph for each turbo in order to determine where the exhaust housing starts to restrict flow. There's a project... Bibs... you need to get each one of these turbos and put them on your car and do these tests... once you have made you're own personal determination... then we can all learn from an independant, un-biased, objective observer.

I'm up for that, who wants my address to post turbos too?

No?

[t70]

As another side note... I think the biggest restriction on our setup is the plenum box. I'm willing to bet that the spool time and responsiveness would be drastically improved by making a totally different intake plenum box. However, this would create some major changes in the pulse tuning of the engine... there should be a secondary sound pulse that reflects back down the runner after it hits the back of the plenum. I would like to see a plenum box in the shape of a hyperbola that protrudes about 6-8 inches from the throttle bodies and then ends up in a u-pipe that heads back to the chargecooler. I think this would be far more efficient... correct me if I'm wrong. So, if this was done, I would think that your spool time would be massively improved. However... again this "U-tube" would have different acoustic properties again... and one would have to be careful to observe the length and ensure not to counteract or over-amplify the natural pulse of the original runners.... hmmm.... now I think I'll try that too...damn... more money... argghh

[Squelch]

Marcus:

I would have to agree that it was likely not your intent to start anything controversial on the forum. However, it is very clear from many people reading your postings that an implication about the performance of WC Engineering

[SE Owner :-D]

And i've got one of his stage 2 bad boys...

Can't wait for a man called Troy to put it in.

YUMMMMMMMM!!!!

[Paula&Marcus]

John,

All this defence and serious statements is getting too official for me here.

Are you actually asking me to share my experiences here on this forum ? I dont think that this is a good idea.

Believe me, if I would do you would not be too amused and you would like to reply once again with an even longer and more official post than the last one. Thats why I dont do it here on this forum.

Please dont get me wrong, most I wrote about turbos are no objective facts, just my personal subjective point of view about turbo design for the Esprit. Like with many topics there is a lot of personal philosophy in it. Its not a black-white thing its all about personal preferences. Actually my and your preferences seem to be diametral. OK, why not.

Its the very same with your own personal opinion about our chips.

Maybe its way better if somebody who runs your turbo and others who run our turbo in their Esprit could share their experiences here. IMHO this would be the best way to get impressions first hand.

Marcus

[Advantage]

John, that was an extremely long post you've written. Unfortunately you've forgotten to tell us any technical details of the the product you sell......and that's the purpose of this thread.

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi GKP,

Its very hard to tell technical details, because everybody who builds turbos always is afraid that others may just copy it. For example, if he would tell you exactly what turbine-wheel+shaft and what center-section and what compressor-wheel he uses then its an easy one for your local turbo-shop to just copy it. (Of course its not all about the parts, but many people think its just the parts. Its also very important to know the machining specs for the compressor housing and the exhaust housing !)

Its not all about the technical specs, the main thing is what the turbo does, its characteristic is important. And thats exactly where all the work and all the efforts are. Till you get your turbo exactly doing what it should do (in your personal point of view) there is a lot of time and are a lot of turbos to build and test and throw away and begin from new again ...

Its easy to refurbish an existing turbo with the very same parts and its also very easy to copy an existing one that is known as a good one, but its hard to develop a new one that should exactly meet your personal goals.

Comparing two turbos is not easy. IMHO this is only practicable with the Stage 1 turbos. The Stage 2 is too special. Its not meant for stock engines and you all know that every uprated engine is different ...

Maybe the best and most realistic way is to take a stock/original S4 or S4s and put the new turbo on and make a Freescan test run. In 3rd and 4th gear acceleration from 30km/h to max. rpm should give some good data (time, rpm, MAP, MAT, speed, ...)

Cheers

Marcus

John, that was an extremely long post you've written. Unfortunately you've forgotten to tell us any technical details of the the product you sell......and that's the purpose of this thread.

[BusaNostra]

"Its very hard to tell technical details, because everybody who builds turbos always is afraid that others may just copy it. For example, if he would tell you exactly what turbine-wheel+shaft and what center-section and what compressor-wheel he uses then its an easy one for your local turbo-shop to just copy it. "

There is no secret building or modifying the Lotus turbo.

As I said before, there are 3 steps and 3 stages you can port the lotus turbo.

It will crack anything higher. Read my last, I stated the inducer/exducer dimension.

I know all the Garrett/Holset blades. I have 16 walls of these blades.

800-900 pounds for a T3 turbo is a sin. You probably can get 6 turbo in the US, enough

to have spares for the rest of the Lotus life.

Edited November 3, 2007 by BusaNostra

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi,

You have a great collection there !!!

Please do me a favour and donot mix USD, Pounds and Euros. The USD is falling and falling and falling and the Euro accordingly is rising and rising. Of course all this does not make comparisons easier ... This is just the conversion rate thing and no sin, IMHO.

Cheers

Marcus

[BusaNostra]

"Please do me a favour"

"Do yourself a favor", best time to buy things in the US if you decide. Don't worry about our $$$ falling. Does not mean anything. We will survive, Learn your economics.

I buy lots of parts in Europe, but not this time. I will hold on. Falling currency does not mean bad thing to a stable country. There is always a winner and a loser. My lose is your gain. Its global, two ways street!

Edited November 3, 2007 by BusaNostra

[t70]

Busa is right... but this whole thing is getting too heated.. It's going to be cheapest to purchase the products you need in the US right now.. but, that doesn't mean that the US product is superrior and that's what we are trying to determine. Which product is superrior for a stage 1 setup.

Now... I haven't had a chance to drive one of PUK's turbos yet. I have tried WC's turbo. The only problem with what I've tested is that it's been on the stock chip. Aerobat's car was supposed to have the aftermarket chip installed, but it never was. So what I experienced was an inability to hit full boost in first and second if you started from 0 at WOT. Now, I'm very confident that this was only because the chip was stock. IF, however, I was to let off the throttle and re-apply, I would be able to attain full boost. The reasoning -- chip tune was insufficient to push enough to keep the turbo spooled up. I would like to re-try with a properly mapped chip. I think it's probably because the stock tune is too rich. I experienced the same problem with the Z I built. When the tune was too rich -- afr of 10 or so, I couldn't get the turbo to spool quickly and once it reached 7psi (the clutch was not sufficient to push more than that) it wouldn't give much power. I estimate that there was about a 60hp difference between my "rich tune" and my "final tune".

As for response... Again, I blame the stock Chip. I found it spooled much quicker and earlier than mine does on my 88 with bosch injection... but that's not a fair comparison because of the nature of the bosch injection system. However, it still did spool WAY quicker than my 88. I saw Johns car hitting close to 9.8AFR under stock tune... which is way too rich to have good power, but it is a very safe AFR to run on -- virtually no possibility of detonation.

As for Higher RPM boost... as I recall it never really fell off. Maybe a tiny bit close to redline... but again.. engine tune.

[BusaNostra]

"Busa is right... but this whole thing is getting too heated.. It's going to be cheapest to purchase the products you need in the US right now.. but, that doesn't mean that the US product is superrior and that's what we are trying to determine. Which product is superrior for a stage 1 setup. "

TRUE! you are buying for the quality, this is the heart of your performance.

Let me advice you with quality. The key in the turbo is balancing and the quality of the metal.

Believe it or not, all turbine housings made in the U.S & Canada contains precious metals. The reason why I

won't let go all my cores http://www.mjmturbos.com/Graveyards.htm

I made more money selling precious metal (came from the turbine) to a metallurgical lab all over the world than selling you a turbo. Its a gold mine! Ton's of nikasil!

The currency exchange is way too high and I will wait to buy things in Europe, however, regardless of what

I will not buy a turbine and compressor casted in China....period!! They used raw iron & raw alloy, quick dirty

to make money. Who knows if they do balance.

A good turbo is balance up to stage 3, 150,000 rpm! If you find anyone capable of balancing the turbo at this

stage, buy it!

One other thing, buy a billet turbine blade instead of cast. A billet is one unit(machined). Casting is foundry process (poured).

There are lots of fly by night turbo tuners...beware!

Any turbo exist in this earth, I got it!

Edited November 3, 2007 by BusaNostra

[t70]

WOW!!! Holy CRAP MONKEY!!! that's a lot of turbos! i'll have one of those 3 ft diameter ones for my talon please

[esprits4de]

Any turbo exist in this earth, I got it!

I gota few MTU turbos off the 8 and 12 cyl. engines 838 and 837.....working condition.

Even have a ABB turbo off a mine sweeper....working condition ( brass body...doesen't attract friends.. )

[Bibs]

I've not really moved on in my search for which turbo I should buy now despite this thread.

I'm waiting for TurboTechnics to add what they can with regards to their offering and then I can look at my options however since I can't tell what they all do, I'll consider them all to be the same and buy the cheapest.

Since no-one has really told me what their turbo offers more than the stock item, it looks like unless I hear anything more detailed, I'll be refurbing mine to stock and having the housing ported a touch, request a billet turbine and saving lots of money to spend on other things.

If anyone asks in the future what to do about their turbo, I'll point them to this thread. They too can see that there is nothing to be gained (that you can find out about anyway!) from a more expensive option and can stick with as good as what Lotus stuck in there in the first place. Perhaps this is what we've found out and it will be useful to Esprit owners in the future.

[t70]

Ouch Bibs... you have a very valid point but... OUCH... I think you will still notice a marked difference by at least adding ball bearings. The advantage of a larger turbo is hard to see without the necessary chip tuning. If you don't plan on increasing hp... then a simple upgrade to ball bearings will suffice. Additionally.. a port job will certainly assist aswell. It's so important to know exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish. If all you want is a more responsive engine... then BB and Port should be enough. However, if you want more than that... it's best to discuss what you're trying to achieve with the prospective seller and of course, obtain info from those who have used certain combinations.

I'm going rather extreme myself, but I still haven't decided on my turbo... I have a friend that will be helping me with that decision. No single turbo is going to be the right decision for everybody. I want to hit 350hp... I'm gonna need more than just a turbo for that..

[Bibs]

I'm not sure what I'd like to achieve but what I wanted to know is what was available.

If I go into a shop to buy a TV they have stickers on telling me what features they have, not just price tags and I can make an informed decision from there. It would be nice if the respective turbo options highlighted exactly what was on offer in comparison to stock, by what degree and what advantages that would give. If I knew that, they I could decide which is right for me and my car and pick from there but so far I can't tell much at all, so the money is going on other performance upgrades rather than the turbo unless someone can convince me otherwise that I should buy their option.

[98GT3]

I'm not sure what I'd like to achieve but what I wanted to know is what was available.

If I go into a shop to buy a TV they have stickers on telling me what features they have, not just price tags and I can make an informed decision from there. It would be nice if the respective turbo options highlighted exactly what was on offer in comparison to stock, by what degree and what advantages that would give. If I knew that, they I could decide which is right for me and my car and pick from there but so far I can't tell much at all, so the money is going on other performance upgrades rather than the turbo unless someone can convince me otherwise that I should buy their option.

From what little I understand Bibs, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong anyone!

If the exhaust turbine remains the same size and the inlet compressor is increased in size, then you will achieve the same boost, but at much lower turbo RPM's purely because you shift more air with a larger compressor. This is good for the inlet air temps and hence power because compressing at lower turbo speeds doesn't "mash up" the air so much and cause it to rise in temperature. It is also good for the turbo as it doesn't run faster than it's design envelope - especially true in chipped engines, demanding a higher boost pressure. One thing against the larger compressor is the with everything being equal it will take longer to spool up and hence you will feel the increase as turbo lag. This can be offset by reducing the running friction of the turbo by introducing ball bearings rather than a sleeve bearing and this will reduce the turbo lag, maybe to even less than it was before the change in compressor size.

Anyway, that is my take on things, but it should really be up to the suppliers to give you the information. One thing I note though is what Busa said about prices! when you think about it...............yes, yes, yes, I know a turbo is very precision on balancing etc. but essentially it is just a few rough old castings with ONE moving part inside.............not much really for

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi Phil,

From the tech point of view, you are absolutely right. Please let me add one or two more tech points:

- exhaust turbine remains the same size and the inlet compressor is increased in size, then you will achieve the same boost, but at much lower turbo RPM's purely because you shift more air with a larger compressor -> CORRECT

-> but you also have to keep in mind, that a less quick rotating turbine produces a lot more backpressure ! You can simply verify this if you try to run up a hill with your mountain-bike in a higher gear ...

- .... this can be offset by reducing the running friction of the turbo by introducing ball bearings rather than a sleeve bearing and this will reduce the turbo lag, maybe to even less than it was before the change in compressor size -> Hmmmmmmmm

-> IMHO two ball bearings (with the correct oil restrictor in-line !) have a significant positive effect. No doubt here. But, with still one normal friction bearing the effect is much less than half ...

I personally am a fan of heavy duty 360

Edited November 6, 2007 by Paula&Marcus

[sanj]

If anyone asks in the future what to do about their turbo, I'll point them to this thread. They too can see that there is nothing to be gained (that you can find out about anyway!) from a more expensive option and can stick with as good as what Lotus stuck in there in the first place. Perhaps this is what we've found out and it will be useful to Esprit owners in the future.

I don't know what led you to this conclusion, but you could not be more erroneous. My car is quicker than a V8, and the only significant modification is a turbo from WC Engineering.

[98GT3]

-> IMHO two ball bearings (with the correct oil restrictor in-line !) have a significant positive effect. No doubt here. But, with still one normal friction bearing the effect is much less than half ...

I personally am a fan of heavy duty 360