When will the Esprit Club come of age?

[Advantage]

I fully applaud the sentiments behind wanting a professional looking stand at these various shows/exhibitions, but I'm wondering what the ultimate goal is?

The general public don't normally go to these sorts of events and the people that are there, normally are already aware of the Esprit.

Would the stand be an advert for the car or club?

The car doesn't need promoting. Every unit produced has an owner. There's no way some posh hardwearing carpet at the NEC will affect the Esprit's market value.

In the same vein, that carpet wouldn't affect any or enough owners to suddenly sign up to become members of the club.

It seems to be an awful lot of money to spend just to shout 'Look at Me!'.

[watership down]

I could see one of the biggest problems would be whose Esprits do you put on the stand. I'm sure that would create a few "Why is his on there and not mine" Human nature!!

[abrussich]

I have to second GKP's comments.

In addition, being a non U.K. resident, I really see no reason or justification, from my stand point, in contributing for a club/marque display whcih will serve little or no purpose where I sit. We have two large Lotus clubs stateside and members contribute to their local groups as they see fit. We have banners and displays for our Houston based group as do others in different states.

Perhaps that is how it should be handled in the U.K. If you want to do a display or have something to represent your local group, then addres the local group.

In the U.K. it is concievable that a single display could be had to cover the region. On this side of the pond geography makes it an unrealistic proposition.

I am a club member.

[Kimbers]

I don't think the point here is asking people to pay extra Al. It's just asking people to pay their club membership. As I said earlier if everyone was like you then this conversation would never have happened.

This isn't just about a stand though. It's about covering the sites costs and constantly improving it.

[Jonathan]

I'll reply to you kimbers - thing is I remeber the good old-good old days a few years back now before LEF was even about, we used to just meet up for the hell of it, invite other people with other cars as well and just have a laugh. My idea of a hoon is a drive around some of the awesome twisties and country roads around the county and then stop off at a pub and let the cars cool off and enjoy the sunshine for a bit with good company and a non-alcoholic drink.

The 3-5 hoons you've mentioned - been there, done that - I was in your position 2-3 years ago remember. Motorway driving and sitting around at a static event really doesn't push my buttons anymore, I've seen more Lotus's than is really healthy and they all the the same no matter where you park them in the country

Likes of Donnington really bores me to tears, apart from the people of course. I'll generally only go to the main big events now - the whole concept of the car to me is driving it (non-motorway) which is my opinion and what I'd like to see at the club. I'd rather pay

[arbell9]

Jonathan, NMEG hoon monthly and dont go near motorways, we just organise ourselves better than you perhaps. Also most hoons are to non-car attractions, we dont hang about and kick tyres. We have a bloody good drive to something that is interesting and/or different, and then a bloody good drive back home. So dont go all doe eyed for the good old days. The good days of hooning are here and now.

My basic point was if this was a subscription club we would cater for all. Track days , show days, go carting etc and we could support all over the world even. It would take little effort to spread the funds around, even overseas so everyone could benefit. But alas most people dont want to try and get there. They are happy with it as is. This group of esprit owners would like different things that float their boat and a I pretty certain that over time everone would feel the extra benefits if properly funded

You might want to do track days, I might want to do shows, why cant LEF do both?? Takes time and resource ie some cash to make these things happen

The fact that we dont have a "full" paid up membership means things are run on a shoestring.

You know the Austin Maxi Club has 288 members who all caugh up

Edited June 5, 2008 by Alex --GT3--

[th4neuk]

Bugger my connection went down so I have to type this again!!

Anyway.

Firstly I don't think anybody wants to see the atmosphere and life of the club change at all. We have the CEO posting on here which I would say is unique in the world to this club alone. I doubt no other would be that interested in a bunch of enthusiasts with this much passion. This I think is credit to us the members as well as the big man himself MJK!!

However I think a good quality stand at somewhere like the NEC, Goodwod, Silverstone etc would be a good thing. It also needn't cost the earth. For those in the know we might be able to buy second hand or have donated something from one of the current car manufacturers which with a bit of work could be adapted for our needs.

With regards to hoons etc I remember the driver training day that was done and it was barely possible to get numbers. However from talking to people who went on the day it was the best driving they have done in their cars!! to learn the limits of the car in a safe environment with only your pride to hurt has to be a winner. I would love to atend if something like this was done again. Runs out and hoons do seem to be organised now at a regional level which again is a good thing. I am unlikely to go to a hoon in kent (no offence guys) however something closer to home is more appealing.

I think it must be said thoug that we tend to gather more and have more members at static shows. With a larger stand people have somewhere to congregate. Somewhere like donny is a bad example as Lotus only events can become a little stale sometimes. However at the bigger shows with multiple marques then why not.

I have no problems with my membership of here as over the years LEW, LEF and it's yahoo predecessor has saved me hundreds of pounds!!! Again Kimbers is right. If everyone paid for the membership then this thread wouldn't exist!!

I think that if it is costed properly and everyone knew what was involved then the UK based owners could get something together. Worth a look.

Raising the profile of the club has to be good and again raising the awareness of what our cars are and what they do again has to be good. The general perception is of unreliability and poor build quality. Many people underestimate these cars and it is to there cost. The cars have had a fair bit of media recently and this should be pushed more so as people realise these cars are damn good!!

I know this a bit rambly but the point is lets not just dismiss this as a pointless thread topic.

Having been on the PNM stand at Donny quite a few times now it is far more enjoyable being involved than just visiting the stand. It is well worth it and if LEF/LEW are as much fun then more people will want to join in and be involved at the events.

I think it is a credit to the people who work behind the scenes to organise things and put us where we are now but I agree that we need a little professionalism to really step the club up a gear.

Without wishng to be snobby we are supercar owners !!! This isn't a eurobox appreciation society. Why can't we do both professional and fun at the same time. I do see where the frustration is!!

However I would agree that many Esprit owners arre tight. Getting one person to contribute

Edited June 5, 2008 by th4neuk

[abrussich]

from Kimbers: "I don't think the point here is asking people to pay extra Al. It's just asking people to pay their club membership. As I said earlier if everyone was like you then this conversation would never have happened.

This isn't just about a stand though. It's about covering the sites costs and constantly improving it."

If that is the case then please disregard my statement in that context. If it is, as you say, to maintain and have the ability to improve or upgrade then I agree whole heartedly that those who enjoy the benefits of the website should join to help keep it alive.

I got the impression that the original poster was looking for something additional to the club membership as it presently stands.

[th4neuk]

I think that was the point, however I agree with you Al that the stand would be more a UK idea.

However Kimbers is spot on that all members worldwide need to join to keep the site alive. With the economical doom and gloom it may be that the costs as it stands now may become to much to cover the running of the site without this happening

[Paul C]

Thing is, paying the NEC's charge for the stand is perhaps a reason to consider

'is it a good venue?'

Even with discount my trip will be two tickets at

[Jonathan]

Jonathan, NMEG hoon monthly and dont go near motorways, we just organise ourselves better than you perhaps. Also most hoons are to non-car attractions, we dont hang about and kick tyres. We have a bloody good drive to something that is interesting and/or different, and then a bloody good drive back home. So dont go all doe eyed for the good old days. The good days of hooning are here and now.

I do despair some days!!! This whole thread is about how we can be better than we are now, do more for the members, what are the options and mechanisms to do this?

LOL, as I said to Kimbers you're talking about what we were doing a few years back, it's not a revelation. Sadly a lot of the lot down here sold up - I can name 7-8 regular guys who are now no longer with us so to speek and the bottom has kinda fallen out of it. Now imagine if everyone in NMEG sold up and it came to a grinding halt, wouldn't you reflect on that ? of course not. I'm glad you lot get out all together and have fun - if I were living closer and didn't have to drive 3-4 hrs+ / other commitments I would be joining in, believe me (I've even been driven to tag along with the seloc lot LOL).

But those kinda comments are about as useful as someone coming onto a technical thread and going "I've never had that problem so........"

Like to hear what Bibs and Kato have to say really - you can't complain from that side, we've had some of the best organsed events ever (Hethel meet) and the best Oxford meets of recent years at the new venue. Lotus are more and more in touch with us and great froum / website and member base.

I'm all for taking it to a new level but developing the club outside of any real benefits to the owners when the main reason for owning a Lotus is to drive it, seems a little strange to me. I seriously dont see what buying kit for a stand at the NEC (for example) will promote ? Sponsorship ?

As I say I'm not an organiser but I can put the cash down and lend a helping hand / make suggestions but the biggest issue imo is the fact there are too few of us spread to thinly. If you want people to commit more financially there has to be a benefit to all.

[MPx]

OOooooeeerrrrr....looks like this has turned into a bearing our soul thread. So...despite pitching in early pledging a little support for a bit more kit, I now seem to need to clarify what that really means that I want for the future of LEF.

Well I love LEF as it is, and without wishing to curtail anybody's ambitions for taking over the world, I dont really want it to change too much or to rival any other club. I already pay subs to Club Lotus, Autobahnstormers, SLOC and "donate" to LEF/LEW and LEC. I do this cos I'm appreciuatve that they are there - but have no real desire to invest more heavily to make them richer and I cant see them amalgamating so that I'd only need to join the one.

My first and overriding concern is to have someone/somewhere to turn to when I need help to keep the cars on the road.

As a wonderful bonus I've found that I really like many of the people involved with the forum/clubs and I treat it as a privilige to be part of a great community - so thats second.

Third level for me are the events - I like going but I've been going for 20 years or more so there's little "new" out there. Over the years I've found I like track based bike events best (MotoGP,WSB,BSB or a track day) , general supercar events second (Supercar Sunday, Goodwood FoS or Breakfasts), track based car events third (Lotus Castle Combe etc), Lotus events forth (Factory celebrations, Donnington, Stonleigh) and Esprit only events fifth. I find road based hoons scarey - biker meets are the worst, but lots of boys in fast cars in a convoy always seems to result in me cringing as I see some poor member of the public subjected to some oppressive moves just so the convoy can keep together and moving fast (eg the PH run at Cheddar Gorge). Having said that it was pretty special to be part of the 100+ Esprit convoy to the factory; the 70+ Elan convoy to Donny 2007, and of course the 300+ Lotus record breaker at Brands Hatch. But as Paul says, attending events is costly, typically well over

[SE Owner :-D]

Seems like out of all the replies Alex's well intentioned post has received there are 2 mods, a forum supporter and a couple of 'no colour' regular forum members. No disrespect to them intended.

The rest of the replies are Club Esprit gold members and known 'supporters' arguing the toss amongst ourselves. Hmm?

I think the point/message has been lost and the messenger seen as 'over-ambitious' - that's bollocks.

But alas i know Alex and have the luxury and priviledge of being able to call him a friend. I'm certain his intention was merely to get some mature sense of professionalism when 'the great and good', primarily bibs/laura and the helpers turn up at a 'show/meet/event' to display/advertise and enthuse about THIS FORUM!!! A broken wallpaper table and a plastic gazeebo really isn't worthy of their effort and intention.

Bibs (and Laura) have worked their socks off not for world domination but to give this forum and it's members some credibility and kudos and 'real world' ownership benefits, more importantly a lot to look forward to at the weekend. I wouldn't own my car now and would have certainly found it difficult to maintian and modify without the techincal knowledge base on this forum and indeed the work on LEW.

If 4000 members paid a fee each year to be 'on this forum' the job the aforementioned do would be easier and more professional in the eyes of the world outside the virtual one we communicate on.

I don't see any need to make it any more complicated than a yearly fee if you don't want or need whatever it is the forum does for you than click off. If you do then pay up. And as i said in immediate reply to the original post i'd pay whatever is required for the membership to the forum.

I trust the Administrator in his ability to manage the income how he needs and sees fit to maintain and promote my real and virtual relationship with my dream car now and in the future.

You reap what you sow.

[Paul C]

Hey Rog, i'm not knocking Alex. Point i'm making is the following stuff

(quotes from your post, but could have been from any recent post on many

threads, so take no offence! ).

forum supporter

'no colour' regular forum members.

known 'supporters'

'real world' ownership benefits

a fee each year to be 'on this forum'

pay whatever is required for the membership to the forum.

trust the Administrator

Now i date back to when it was a few mates meeting up to go for a drive.

Not saying i'm not very chuffed it has gotten so big, we never expected that

when we started it. But how can i look to the above position we are in and

honestly say it's as much fun as it began?

I've left shooting clubs that have got so wound up in meetings, fundraising

and commitees that they forgot why they were doing it in the first place.

Takes the fun away. I had to ask for my Mod status to be taken away, so i

did not feel duty bound to read stuff, and to have the liberty to give up on

threads. Lets have a debate! again, again, again etc. Nah!

[Mark Blanchard]

I like Alex's idea. Plan B. How about putting pressure on our existing Club Lotus to up the ante. They have the money and the Members, they could invest in a slick stand and improved graphics (to the same standard as the TVR stand). Yes I know it wont be model specific but neither is the TVR stand. And we could work Alan Morgan to make it happen.

[Loose Cannon]

Thats what I have been thinking Mark. Local CL meets around here consist of a couple of crusties drinking warm beer in a museum (seriously). I have since found out the CL pays handsomely for this privelige.

I want to liven things up around here and it's not going to happen if the internet generation turn up once and never return (like I did). To be fair to Alan Morgan he seemed very enthusiastic about some "new blood" but I feel a bit nervous about just turning up as a new member and appearing to take over (which isn't the idea, I just want to help get things moving). It also means I have to join ANOTHER club.

[Kimbers]

I've left shooting clubs that have got so wound up in meetings, fundraising

and commitees that they forgot why they were doing it in the first place.

I agree with the Committee thing. Meetings are a little different to us though as a meeting is really a sociable event to sort out when the next one will be! Fundraising, for me, means charity and I'm all for that, it's a bi-product of socially aware adults getting together who say "You know, it wouldn't be difficult for us to help out the local community and people in need". If you meant fundraising for the club, then I agree as well.

Thats why Alex started this thread. Fundraising for the site is pants as it ends up with the same old crew turning up and giving generously, paying club esprit membership makes sense.

Lets not shoot the messengers here guys and gals. This is a mature discussion between members about the direction of what is a great resource. What worries me is like several points above, it's all people already contributing that are discussing it. It would be great to see some opinions of non Club Esprit members.

[Bibs]

Please allow me to chime in with some thoughts.

We're one of the best clubs online, how come the other clubs appear to be better? We have a good number of ClubEsprit members and forum supporters to whom I'm extremely grateful and I'm pleased that Kato and I tied up the deal to join forces last year. None of this thread is aimed at our current supporters so please don't take umbrage with it.

We are a brilliant club. We've achieved some great things in the last few years and for such a relatively young club, we've done exceptionally well with regards to member numbers bearing in mind the potential numbers of owners that are out there. There are many other car clubs who aren't (IMO) as good as LEF in terms of %age member base, meetings, events, tech assistance, achievements etc but a fair number of them either insist on payment or charge more. Now don't panic, there are no plans to increase the CE annual fee as we wish to offer value for money but the number of people who join up, as it's voluntary, is low.

I started LEF up as there was a need for it, we've discussed this and there's info on here. Like Paul, I'm very proud we've become what we have and look forward to us growing more, it's a daily occurance for new members to join the forum. This is a hobby for me, it always was and I enjoy it immensely but with numbers as they are, I now deal with over 3,000 email and PM enquiries a year and generally several telephone calls per day with anything from tyre pressures to quite immersive tech questions (I pass them to Lotus ), event arrangement, forum problems and so on. The forum now costs me somewhere between 30 and 40 hours per week of my time, sometimes more, rarely less. That's not a problem but with so much time and effort invested into LEF I personally find it a real shame that when it comes to other people's commitment we find ourselves wanting. How come these other clubs, many of which insist on paid membership (TVR is

[russellbosier]

It's a fact of life that if you dont have to do something, such as join a club, then many won't, especially if there is no immediate personal gain. Many may have good intentions about joining, but never actualy get around to it.

To combat this, would it be possible to limit usage by non members in some way, such as limiting the number of threads they could read over a period of time etc, just something to make it slightly annoying without turning people away. This would allow them to check out the site, and if they found it usefull they would join. Currently I dont think there is a real insentive to make people think 'I must join'.

[SteveSmith]

Hi folks

Sorry - I've been out of the Esprit loop for ages due to workloads and a baby and have only occasionally recently had a chance to look at LEF.

Amazing how I chose today to have a good look around and found this thread....

A couple of things I have to say:

Firstly, I feel bad... I'm one of those 'no-colour' forum members (see above for reason why). I have immediately rectified that fact and look forward to my name turning gold B)

I already benefit from the ClassicLine discount as I was a member of the original ClubLEW so I believe, for this alone, I owe it to the site owners and organisers of goodly things to cough up for ongoing membership. I would add a plea to anyone else who is not currently a member to evaluate whether they have, as a result of using this site or LEW, saved themselves at least the

[Laura]

Just to add to what the better half has already said in relation to static stands as someone who does the standing at each one of these events it can sometimes be a little embarrassing to be representing one of, if not the, best British sports cars and to be outshone by a group of beardies in waistcoats (no offence intended to beardies who like to wear waistcoats) who have got a lovely, well presented professional stand. On day one we had to go around begging and borrowing items from other stands to try and spruce ours up a bit!

Don't get me wrong static shows aren't the be all and end all of the club but it is very nice to raise awareness of the car and put a smile on the little boy's face who just had the best day out because he got to sit in an Esprit and make broom-broom noises rather than be dragged around by his dad looking at the auto jumble. As Bibs said if the profile of the car and the club grows it can't do any damage to the value of the car.

When you look at the video of the Ally Pally show this year there is not one shot of the LEF stand and to be honest our paste table did look perhaps a little shoddy compared to most of the stands there. We also noticed the show judges did not approach us to talk about the club or the car either, it's not about winning silly plaques (although the

[Jonathan]

Bibbo - you know me and the last thign I would do is bash anyone who has a hand in running something for others (whether they did a good job or not) or anyone for having ideas to improve things. I know I'm by no means the longest sering member on here but I can still say we have gone upwards leaps and bounds in terms of LEF and LEW - I guess it's harder for people to seehaving come into the club for a year or so.

Anyways - as I've said twice, I'm not an organiser....I used to try and drum up people's attention on the Unity forums and we'd have some success (some of the karting meets etc) but the last straw for me was the lack of response to the Brands hatch thing that Lipscomb did. I can remember putting my foot well and trully in it by telling Mark that we have a great club turnout and they'd be loads of cars down there and I think only 4 LEFers turned up (inc me). Even they remarked on the fact it would have been nice to see more Esprits but there ya go.

The skid pan was another thing at the Cop shop - sent a really good e-mail and remarked we could get the paper to come down do some publicity for the Force and make a charity donation and the twats up top just binned it. I have a really short fuse with that kinda thing.

So I have tried, I have actually done something (not only my bosses who think I sit around all day twiddling my thumbs then ) but I loose enthusiasm so quickly when your limited available time you spend on something is wasted.

Where I have been able to help the club is (hopefully) in the techy room, writing LEW articles and being a subscriber, as I say everyone has their +/-

Adding value to the car seems a strange concept to me as well, thing is are any of us looking to sell our cars ?

No ? We're looking to drive them surely ? (dont call me surely !)

All for having more members, more money in the coffers and so on but that cash should be prioritiesed into specific areas if it does happen - the 1st should be benefist to paid up members, if that means all the members wanna buy fancy show stuff then so be it but it just seems strange to me.

Anyways said my bit enough now (hooray !) but if you dont say anything you cant be accused of not having an input.

Disclaimer:

People might want to think this is a negative critisism or the way the clubs currently run, when it in fact is not - I think we're very fortunate to have the commitment and skills on hand here as we are and I think very few (infact I know very few) people would be able to come close to getting LEF/LEW to where it is now.

No messengers were shot in the typing of this message.

[th4neuk]

I think this is the key (bibs and laura's points). The raising of awareness of the club and the encouragement to get members to properly join has to be good.

The point here is that to do anything properly now is taking some kind of finncial investment. To have the funds to do it well would be nice.

Again static shows are not the be all and end all of the marque and more days out, runs etc could still be officially organised.

Whilst on the point I agree with Kimbers about doing some good charity work. Our local club NYLOC support a local childrens hospice and the other weekend a few people went over to the hospice to give the children and families rides in the various cars. The look on these childrens faces when we turned up and then after the various rides was utterley priceless and has brightened both there and our lives. This is done by organisation and funds. Admittedley they are local and cover all marques but they charge a small fee and all the members pay. In summer we can have 60 to 70 cas turn up at the pub for a meet, runs out, shows and visits are also organised. It doesn't cost a fortune but as every member contributes it means these things can happen.

I guess the question is how many actual active members do we have who use the site and it's discounts etc. OK we may have 3/4000 member but how many are active (ish)

It would be great to see the profile of the club and the car itself raised.

At the above event I mentioned my car was prefered over a lambo gallardo spyder and a standard gallardo!! This has to say something about an 8 year old car worth

Edited June 6, 2008 by th4neuk

[Paul C]

One thing i would like to state,

While the whole display stand/promo girl/backdrop display etc will be decided on its own.

I am 100% behind money going to Bibs and Laura. Aside from the private time lost, work

time is given too. When he goes to the factory he is losing money. The time spent on the

forum alone is huge.

The NEC three day show: Most of us will pop by for one of those days, say hello to Bibs, spend

several hours looking around and go home. Once you have seen the show, take it from me, sitting

at a stand for three days can be really tedious. Who would want to spend all three days from door

open to door close at one car show?

Thats a whole weekend gone, a fancy stand needs someone on it for every minute of a two/three day event.

Who among you want's to spend three days behind a stand at a car show, unpaid, staying away from home,

leaving the esprit at home as you need a big car to carry all the extra display stuff, and then to get back home

to the PC and try to read three days of new posts? Is taking shifts behind a table of leaflets something you want

to help out doing at every show? Why would want to stand at a table for three days instead of driving your Esprit?

While i'm not sure about buying display tat, i'm into every penny that goes to bibs and laura for their time.

Why not sort out a weekend break for them? after 36 hrs of sitting on folding chairs drinking tea from foam

cups, this might be a better way for forum members to help, and more importantly to ensure forum survival.

As,

Who else would do what they do? Would you? Who would take over if they could not do it anymore?

It's easy for me to get hacked off with reading stuff i don't care about and ditching the Mod job,

But these guys can't just 'up tools' and go back to being normal members, they are stuffed!

Edited June 6, 2008 by Paul C

[Loose Cannon]

The only thing I worry about in charging for the forum is the membership drop-off that will ensue, just watch 4000+ turn into a few hundred. I mean every now and then you will benefit from a Club discount (even though when you ask the response is most likely "already included in the price sir" ) but I would be really worried about missing out on priceless advice from casual visitors for whom the Esprit isn't the be-all an end-all, but who none the less have something to contribute. As an example I viewed the Lotus Drivers Club forum the other day. There was a solitary Esprit owner puzzling how to fit his sunroof in the boot, and not one single reply in weeks. So there he was, in his little club, doing his own thing, and 20 seconds searching on LEF would have got him a sodding video of the procedure.

The money I pay LEF is not for club membership it's just a thankyou for someone else putting more effort in than I would. I enjoy this forum immensely, I can't imagine what my ownership experience would have been even 10 years ago (zero communication and frequent trips to the main stealers). I'm on here dozens of times a day, and

Edited June 6, 2008 by britten_mark