S1 Project car - part 2 - the continuation

[Lotusfab]

The biggest issue I have had on this car is the leaking camshaft covers. I have done this job so many times. I tried the rubber seal and gaskets. I pedantically did everything correctly many times and still it leaked after several heat cycles lasting only months before failure. I then discovered the problem wasn’t my work it was the gasket material! I was being supplied with paper gaskets. This is not what Lotus used. They used a material that Vulcanises when heated. This maintains the seal through temperature cycles. Lotusbits sourced the correct material and remade the gaskets. Before the Queens Pageant I fitted them . I had a tiny drip from the lower cover at the front after a several heat cycles. I sourced a german sealant that can be applied externally. It worked and no more oil leaks from the covers. I have been driving it since the pageant and its still perfect! How many man hours would have been saved if they just supplied the correct gasket in the first place? 

[Fridge]

I have heard good things about the sealants.

However I would say that @Paul Colemanhas the original gaskets, fitted by SJ Sportcars I think he said, and his don't leak.

I use surgical rubber ones (not Nitrile) and they are fine.

So again, skills I think. If you do something lots of times, like SJ will have done, then you'll get the knack. Doing one car does not really make you an expert.

[Paul Coleman]

I fitted SJ cam cover gaskets with the RTV as specified in Steve's write up on the topic and they never leaked a drop in 4 years. But then I saw some rubber ones sold by Gary Kemp and fitted those. Within a short while I could see the rubber that was exposed cracking which I put down to the cheap and nasty rubber that seems to be supplied now

[Fridge]

They need to be fitted carefully @Paul Coleman, with not too much pressure. I think the surgical rubber ones are superior. Possibly being less rigid etc.

Ultimately, I think well fitted originals probably are best. Modern sealants help I would have thought. But that takes skill to apply correctly.

[Paul Coleman]

1 minute ago, Fridge said:

They need to be fitted carefully @Paul Coleman, with not too much pressure. I think the surgical rubber ones are superior. Possibly being less rigid etc.

Ultimately, I think well fitted originals probably are best. Modern sealants help I would have thought. But that takes skill to apply correctly.

I torqued them up to the required torque but you can see the rubber is just perishing, so I won't hold my breath long term. When they start leaking I will go back to plan A.

[Fridge]

7 minutes ago, Paul Coleman said:

I torqued them up to the required torque but you can see the rubber is just perishing, so I won't hold my breath long term. When they start leaking I will go back to plan A.

I haven't heard good things about them. Though Gary Kemp knows his stuff.

[Lotusfab]

27 minutes ago, Fridge said:

I have heard good things about the sealants.

However I would say that @Paul Colemanhas the original gaskets, fitted by SJ Sportcars I think he said, and his don't leak.

I use surgical rubber ones (not Nitrile) and they are fine.

So again, skills I think. If you do something lots of times, like SJ will have done, then you'll get the knack. Doing one car does not really make you an expert.

Well it does if you do two cars and repeat the job more times than you can remember!

[Fridge]

14 minutes ago, Lotusfab said:

Well it does if you do two cars and repeat the job more times than you can remember!

It still doesn't compare to a serial restoration company like SJ Sportcars who will have done many S1s, S2s etc. Or on a production line.

Though I would say generally a home restored car by a highly skilled enthusiast will probably be better overall - speaking as both a self-restorer and also a business owner who understands the need for a profit margin. We can spend hours on a single item of our cars, whereas a professional company cannot. Unless they want to go bust.

However, they will undertaken a regular job, like cam cover fitment many, many times.

[Lotusfab]

Well anyone who has seen either car can decide for themselves. I think I must have some skills at restoring. Brooklands a little while ago up against some very nice cars.

[Lotusfab]

Victory demo laps.

 

 

[Fridge]

I'm not questioning your restoration skills Fabian. You've totally not understood the crux of what I said and immediately taken offense.

I even explicitly said that a skilled enthusiast restored car is often more accurate than a professional one. Evidenced usually in the details. I have seen that quite a few times. However what professional restorers have got is regular and repeated practise and therefore experience, much like in production, that no home restorer is likely to have. Regardless of doing one car well, or even two. SJ Sportcars and the SW Lotus Centre must have rebuilt dozens of G-Esprits each. Which allows them to gain experience in those things that frustrate the hobby restorer.

Your repeated problems in the areas you mention, such as door gaps, cam cover sealing, filler neck assembly and perhaps now steering are obvious examples of that.

[Lotusfab]

The new UJ and column both came from S and J. The problem is the quality of the parts is poor because they are done at a cost. Whether they or I fitted it the UJ it would still be worn out. Its in a high stress application and is inferior to the original. The casting is the wrong shape and its not as heavy duty. There is no alternative but to use these parts going forward which means more maintenance work. Same issue with the Chinese rear wheel bearings. They do not compare with the originals and have play in them when newly installed. I have bought two new old stock and stored them. There are no original bearings left. The two new ones I bought lay unused because they are inferior.

 I can list many cars that have issues after being done by the professionals. Its the nature of these cars and the design, which is less than optimal in many ways. New parts being made to the wrong dimensions, from the wrong materials all adding to the issues. The door seals being a case in point. I finally got to the bottom of the problem.I  proved the door seals are the wrong profile, size and made of harder rubber than the originals. I had no issues with the original door seals and door alignment.  I stupidly replaced them before I knew about the parts issues and thats when all the problems started. The increased size and stiffness of the new seals Increases the loading on the catch causing it to slide far more easily than with the original rubber. In my case the shims behind the bulkhead were very slightly off square and not parallel with the bulkhead. The extra pressure from the seal pushing the door catch out regardless of tightness or the metal gauze beneath it!
I know of an S1 that was fully restored and it was awful! It was trimmed before all of the electrics and mechanical bits were sorted.This is a complete no no. The windscreen fit was dreadful. I won’t say who restored it but they are very well known. They must have done the windscreens many more times than me but produced something I wouldn’t pay for. It would have been a court case if I was involved.

Professionals are not magicians and have all the same issues with these cars. I would say after messing around on these most days for 10 years and having done most of the jobs many many times In order to get it perfect. I now have the same overall skill levels as the restorers and have bettered them in some areas due to spending many many more hours restoring than they could have done on these cars. I would stand the Turbo up against any Turbo in the UK. Its going to be on display up north 1st May at GAWSWORTH Hall, including Lotus in the Peak later in the year. Maybe go and have a look and judge for yourself weather a professionally restored car is  any better mechanically or cosmetically.

I only post info on here as I try to perfect my S1. To me originality is secondary to a useable reliable car. In some cases its an excuse for a tatty car that people want top money for when they sell. A forty year old Lotus Esprit thats original is an unreliable money pit, as anyone with experience of these cars will know only too well. They need lots of maintenance and care. Whats the point of a nice looking Veglia if you can’t tell what speed your doing and haven’t a clue what the engine RPM is?  Things have to work properly. On here I post so there is some idea of how to go about fixing things without wasting hours trying to think of how to do it.

 

[Fridge]

I get that, but I still stand by what I said about folk who do this professionally, or repeatedly with many cars, and will naturally have gained "the knack". @CHANGES and @LOTUSMAN33 are two such examples. Recognising that fact and a bit of humility goes a long way Fabian, and this does not come across well in your posts.

What you have to realise is that not everyone has had your problems. Yet many of us restore our cars to a similar level as you. I certainly haven't had half your problems, but perhaps I have had other problems due to the nature of these hand built cars, and to the varying factors such as the work carried out and my own skillset. I speak for other owners who have all done similar well restored Esprits, and we agree.

One aspect I never do is fit new parts were old ones can be refurbished to the level that provides both functionality and originality. New is not always best. And with that also messing about with them which can reduce their effectiveness. Mainly because cars are only original once, and as I said before, every time you restore a car you often destroy something about it in the process. Whether that being by replacing an interior or fitting incorrect parts for the period, or simply damaging something else in the process. It's a sliding scale of how far you decide to go, and a decision chosen by the restorer. When undertaking such work I always consider what the person who will be refreshing my cars in 20 plus years will think of my work and the decisions that I made during that process. Because none our cherished restorations will last forever regardless if how much pride you take!

What I also do is save everything I have removed that may differ from what it has to be replaced with. For example high frequency welded fabric that is not easily replicated currently. So that restorers down the line can examine what a car would have been fitted with had a replacement version been available. l also have a stock of old rubber seals for the same reason, and I have seen over 35 years new profile finishes come and go as stock is remade. One now replicating what my other car was originally fitted with, but new owners will think it should be like what their car restored in the 1990s is fitted with.

The second reason I try to reuse parts is that I have learned in over 40 years of working with old cars that new stuff is often simply not up to scratch. The uprated alternators we have both fitted will probably not last, and I will be having my original Lucas unit refurbished at some point in the future just in case of that eventuality. As I did with the original distributor, which is far better than the cheaply made Powerspark variety you can buy for a 5th of the price, but leaks oil and probably doesn't have the same advance curve. The story of which forms a thread elsewhere on here.

My original Lucas D25 fitted to my other old car is still going strong 62 years later! Though I will be getting that refurbished soon as the shaft bearings are now worn and this is beginning to effect the point gap.

So, we both have similar outlooks and perspectives. However, you are not unique in your quest, and like you, many of us strive in our own way for the best for our pride and joy.

I'll try and catch up with you and your summer ski carrier at Galsworth, but the north is a big place, and it's at least a 3 hour drive south for me.

[Lotusfab]

14 minutes ago, Fridge said:

I get that, but I still stand by what I said about folk who do this professionally, or repeatedly with many cars, and will naturally have gained "the knack". @CHANGES and @LOTUSMAN33 are two such examples. Recognising that fact and a bit of humility goes a long way Fabian, and this does not come across well in your posts.

What you have to realise is that not everyone has had your problems. Yet many of us restore our cars to a similar level as you. I certainly haven't had half your problems, but perhaps I have had other problems due to the nature of these hand built cars, and to the varying factors such as the work carried out and my own skillset. I speak for other owners who have all done similar well restored Esprits, and we agree.

One aspect I never do is fit new parts were old ones can be refurbished to the level that provides both functionality and originality. New is not always best. And with that also messing about with them which can reduce their effectiveness. Mainly because cars are only original once, and as I said before, every time you restore a car you often destroy something about it in the process. Whether that being by replacing an interior or fitting incorrect parts for the period, or simply damaging something else in the process. It's a sliding scale of how far you decide to go, and a decision chosen by the restorer. When undertaking such work I always consider what the person who will be refreshing my cars in 20 plus years will think of my work and the decisions that I made during that process. Because none our cherished restorations will last forever regardless if how much pride you take!

What I also do is save everything I have removed that may differ from what it has to be replaced with. For example high frequency welded fabric that is not easily replicated currently. So that restorers down the line can examine what a car would have been fitted with had a replacement version been available. l also have a stock of old rubber seals for the same reason, and I have seen over 35 years new profile finishes come and go as stock is remade. One now replicating what my other car was originally fitted with, but new owners will think it should be like what their car restored in the 1990s is fitted with.

The second reason I try to reuse parts is that I have learned in over 40 years of working with old cars that new stuff is often simply not up to scratch. The uprated alternators we have both fitted will probably not last, and I will be having my original Lucas unit refurbished at some point in the future just in case of that eventuality. As I did with the original distributor, which is far better than the cheaply made Powerspark variety you can buy for a 5th of the price, but leaks oil and probably doesn't have the same advance curve. The story of which forms a thread elsewhere on here.

My original Lucas D25 fitted to my other old car is still going strong 62 years later! Though I will be getting that refurbished soon as the shaft bearings are now worn and this is beginning to effect the point gap.

So, we both have similar outlooks and perspectives. However, you are not unique in your quest, and like you, many of us strive in our own way for the best for our pride and joy.

I'll try and catch up with you and your summer ski carrier at Galsworth, but the north is a big place, and it's at least a 3 hour drive south for me.

You have now changed your argument. I didn’t say anything concerning fellow restorers, both the Daves are great and I would trust them 100 per cent. You were implying I am rubbish, thats how it came across. Also you imply I am unable to set up the geometry on my cars. I have spent more time on that alone than most people would on a large part of their restoration.
 Serval posts you have made on here recently and in the past are frankly patronising and condescending and don’t help others in any way. They seem to imply I haven’t got a clue what I am doing! After doing Lotus cars for 10 years its insulting! I posted the concours to prove the point. 
If you don’t wish to fix your display permanently great drive around with it broken.

I won’t be there on the 1st May as a friend has now taken ownership of my Turbo. He will be displaying it up North extensively, so you will get to see it at some point. 
I won’t comment on this any more as its wasting my time, but I will continue to post refinements that may be of use to other members.

 

[LOTUSMAN33]

Thanks for the positive comments guys, you are both well accomplished restorers who have beautiful cars to show for your efforts and know you are both proud to own these iconic supercars. ☺️

I’m certainly no better than either of you and reading posts on TLF I regularly steal with pride taking peoples thoughts and work arounds turning them into reality on my builds.

We all have a TLF duty to help the fellow man (person for the snowflakes) and newbies starting on their restoration journeys, I’m sure sat in a pub with we’d all get on like a house on fire sharing tales and woes of esprit ownership.
I know for me everyday is a learning day which makes life fun, being bitten with poor quality parts having to fettle and make things work seems to be the norm these days.

I 100% agree with rear bearings… SKF all day long 🙂

 

[omegaman]

I reckon LotusFab and Fridge should race their S1's in a drag race.....winner gets the V5 hahahha. 

[Lotusfab]

Needles done and replaced. Belt and braces I have used spacers as well about 3 mm. Glued to the perspex and hidden by the Instrument mask. Cleaned the dials with rubbing alcohol. I used six spacers. Just need to reinstall. Still waiting for the steering parts.

 

[LOTUSMAN33]

Job well done, those clocks look very clean now so hopefully it’ll be the last time they’re apart. 🙂

[Lotusfab]

1 hour ago, LOTUSMAN33 said:

Job well done, those clocks look very clean now so hopefully it’ll be the last time they’re apart. 🙂

Thanks Dave they have done well for 10 years! Can’t believe its that long since I picked the car up from you! 

[LOTUSMAN33]

Time flies, I still remember dragging it out of that London garage like it was yesterday!

And what a transformation it’s had,I must pop up and see it sometime 😉

[Lotusfab]

1 hour ago, LOTUSMAN33 said:

Time flies, I still remember dragging it out of that London garage like it was yesterday!

And what a transformation it’s had,I must pop up and see it sometime 😉

I remember making all the trips to pick it up, yep doesn't seem that long ago! Your always welcome to come and have a look.

[Lotusfab]

Heres and example of poor parts. Supplied by a well known Lotus parts supplier. This is the UJ I installed when I originally restored the car. I didn’t check it at the time, as I had no experience of Lotus parts issues, I assumed they would work as supplied. I did have a lot of trouble trying to get the steering working without the UJ hitting the chassis. There is very little clearance in this part of the design. Now I have removed the UJ I can see why It was hitting the chassis. The top one is the original. you can see they are nothing alike and the hitting the chassis problem was cause by the new UJ being wider and thicker! There is a british company Kiley Clinton that can refurbish these. I may well get this done if the ones I HAVE ON ORDER ARE THE SAME AS THE ABOVE!

[Paul Coleman]

On 29/04/2023 at 17:52, omegaman said:

I reckon LotusFab and Fridge should race their S1's in a drag race.....winner gets the V5 hahahha. 

Why am I thinking of this...

[omegaman]

1 hour ago, Paul Coleman said:

Why am I thinking of this...

Which one is which though?......The black one can't be Lotusfabs as there is a huge gap at the top of the door. 🙂

[Djs44]

Really looking forward to all you experts picking over my car when it is finished 😂