I've got a waste gate and I wanna use it!

[jimblob]

ok stimps I'll have a go stand back and check out my technical skills the flappy thing that the arm connects to when its down, so in a 6 o'clock position is closed, ok so that's when the boost is gonna give it some wooooooosh. It swings out to the left in a clockwise direction that's it opening up and that's when you get no woooosh. When you start the car and go for a drive the flappy thing is closed and as the revs build and the boost builds the arm pushes the flappy thing open to reduce your woooosh. Still with me here? no? dammit Ill keep going anyway. Right so when setting this flappy thing arm length it does indeed have a little pre-load and I do mean a little so what's you gotta do is wind your arm so its able to sit on the flappy thing in a closed position then wind the arm in like one turn and put it back on the flappy thing. What's this your arm wont reach the flappy thing? fear not what you gotta do next is apply some air pressure to your shiny new waste gate so fit a hose to the end of the capsule and apply a little air pressure via a pump of some sort, go gentle as you only need a little and hay presto you arm moves out to meet the flappy thing . Ok so now we have a little preload how do we check to see if this is right? well what you can do is connect everything back up then disconnect the electrical connection to your boost controller you remember the thing you unbolted and left hanging that's the badboy. Now go for a drive and see what boost you get, you will have a yellow engine light on don't panic its just because your boost controller is unplugged, what you looking for here is .65 boost when your giving it the beans so fiddle around with your arm and flappy thing until you get that. Ok so now you have your .65 boosty woosh business all set plug your controller back in then disconnect the battery go make your self a cup of tea drink it then reconnect your battery and go for a spin .

 

*Just so you know if this goes wrong don't blame me I wouldn't follow my own instructions I would most likely take it to a garage and get them to set it right because that's the right way to do it* 

[Qavion]

Is the one turn preload ok for the Esprit? I see the preload video shows 3 turns.

Does this one turn preload take the place of the .04mm measurement in the manual? (or is it a good starting point?)

Thanks.

[jimblob]

Good starting point, I think nothing can replace doing it properly with the .04mm measurement  

[Stimpy]

If you're not up to temp it will limit boost.

What a clever beastie - I will repeat what a friend said - it was way before its time (comparing to the audi Quattro, he's an Audi fan)

[Bibs]

Even more so when you consider it was doing this from the SE in 1989.

[Stimpy]

Ignore the temp gauge, ours reads about 15degrees under, when 'normal'. 

Do your fans come on? When they come on, check the temp gauge, this will then give you an idea of how far out it is reading.

 

Of course your 'stat might be stuck open seeing as the car has been stood for a long time......

Yep - fans come on - and off - and on (etc).  I have to say (and this goes for the esprit I had in 1999/2000) both the temp gauge and petrol gauge seem to have a life of their own.  Stag owners have a slight paranoia - ie we drive with 70% of the time looking ahead at the road and 30% of the time checking the temp gauge.  If you know Stags you'll know what I mean.

 

No - the stat is def working, and of all the cars I have this one warms up the quickest.

Freescan or Espritmon will tell you the temp the ECU is seeing. If it's not over 82 degrees, as Simon says, you'll not get more than 0.65 bar of boost.

 

The lead is currently in the post - so I shall be able to do that soon

[Stimpy]

ok stimps I'll have a go stand back and check out my technical skills the flappy thing that the arm connects to when its down, so in a 6 o'clock position is closed, ok so that's when the boost is gonna give it some wooooooosh. It swings out to the left in a clockwise direction that's it opening up and that's when you get no woooosh. When you start the car and go for a drive the flappy thing is closed and as the revs build and the boost builds the arm pushes the flappy thing open to reduce your woooosh. Still with me here? no? dammit Ill keep going anyway. Right so when setting this flappy thing arm length it does indeed have a little pre-load and I do mean a little so what's you gotta do is wind your arm so its able to sit on the flappy thing in a closed position then wind the arm in like one turn and put it back on the flappy thing. What's this your arm wont reach the flappy thing? fear not what you gotta do next is apply some air pressure to your shiny new waste gate so fit a hose to the end of the capsule and apply a little air pressure via a pump of some sort, go gentle as you only need a little and hay presto you arm moves out to meet the flappy thing . Ok so now we have a little preload how do we check to see if this is right? well what you can do is connect everything back up then disconnect the electrical connection to your boost controller you remember the thing you unbolted and left hanging that's the badboy. Now go for a drive and see what boost you get, you will have a yellow engine light on don't panic its just because your boost controller is unplugged, what you looking for here is .65 boost when your giving it the beans so fiddle around with your arm and flappy thing until you get that. Ok so now you have your .65 boosty woosh business all set plug your controller back in then disconnect the battery go make your self a cup of tea drink it then reconnect your battery and go for a spin .

 

*Just so you know if this goes wrong don't blame me I wouldn't follow my own instructions I would most likely take it to a garage and get them to set it right because that's the right way to do it* 

 

A nice way of putting it.  Youtube is a wonderful thing - I learned a lot from watching various videos of turbocharging in respect to the waist gate.

 

It seems that the only thing I did NOT know is that you had to pull the arm to fit OVER the flap lever.  I presumed that the waist gate arm was fixed (unless in-use) and all the adjustments were around lengthening the arm to fit the flap.   The confusion arose from the fact that I could only push the rod over when the flap was closed and could not understand how the arm could be shortened when the flap was fully closed.  pulling on (or pressurising) the w/g didn't come to my mind.  Now it makes utter and complete sense.  The waist gate starts doing stuff when it needs to bleed air away from the system and keep pressure down - this goes against my original thought that the waistgate was part of the pressurisation process (ie came to life to AID pressure).

 

So by extend the bar fully so that it hold the flap slightly open prevents any pressure building up.  Which now - of course - makes sense.

 

I have to take issue with the 0.65 bit - the S4s guide says 1 bar.

 

Having thought about this - if the wastgate fails in a way that it seizes in the 'no boost' position (flap closed) - or if you remove the waistgate altogether - presumably there would never be any pressure relief and could do some real damage.

I suspect that the ECU cleverness will prevent this though.   Just a thought.

 

I'm looking forward to leaving work and getting home now!  :-)

[Exploded]

Helpful Michael....

Care to share your fix?

 

If you just go for the red race chip, you'll already have very little stumble.

[dodge1979]

Steve. Im having to skip through most of what gets written above cause its so off subject and confusing. Basically all your doing is guessing and playing about not actually setting it up correctly. If you remember I said a few weeks ago there is more to it than just bolting it on. Just read through the factory manual and follow the instructions!

And if your really that unsure book it on a reputable dyno and get it checked over. For the cost of an hour you'll have a health check, actuator adjusted properly with correct instrumentation. Youll find out what is and isnt working correctly and be far more reassured and knowledgeable than current guesswork..

[Stimpy]

dodge1979 - Thanks for your concern and I probably will have a rolling road session but my current to do list is:-

 

1) Get the waist gate working well enough to be satisfied (that's not very scientific but it's the best way I can describe it)

2) Have a car that starts each time I want it to (the 'immobiliser question')

3) Everything else.

 

3 might well include the rolling road as you suggested.

 

I learn stuff pretty quickly if it's demonstrated well and 'theory' is learned.  I would not risk anything until I am satisfied that I know enough about the subject - which is where (in this case) practice, instruction (including this forum) and example (youtube videos of the subject for educational purposes).

 

Armed with what I know now, as of today, I am more than confident with this subject.

 

Having said that - I am still unlikely to floor the pedal in a test run - careful warming up and introducing a stress test gradually is the method I use.

 

One thing that this episode has shown me is - the Esprit is very reliant on the turbo for it to present itself as a performance car.  On my last test run (extended rod causing no pressure to spin the turbine due to constant pressure relief) the car makes all the right noises but is very uninspiring.

Just an observation.

[jimblob]

 

I have to take issue with the 0.65 bit - the S4s guide says 1 bar.

 

 You can go and set your mechanical boost to 1 bar if you wish or you can set it to .65 which is what it should be 

[Stimpy]

I got this from another thread (recent, with your good-self contributing) .....

 

http://www.espritfactfile.com/overboost.html

 

[snip....]This means that on an SE or S4, which normally allows about 0.84bar, you  will be allowed to go to a full 1.0bar. The S4s already goes to 1.0bar,  as does the gauge, so I don't  {....snip]

[Stimpy]

Hmm - on reading more of that page I see this:

 

"If boost in excess of 1.01bar is detected for more than 3 seconds, the fuel pump and ignition are shut off as a protective measure"

 

Now correct me if I'm wrong - but screaming up to the car park on the services off the M4 coming to a screeching halt and switching the engine straight off is awfully unkind to your turbo which might well go "poof" and much oiling of carpark tarmac.

 

Surely the logic is more than incorrect to switch off the engine of a car that's overboosting?  Wont that be like hammering along the same M4 at 140 and turning the ignition key 'just for fun'.....

 

Just a thought.

[jimblob]

Stimps I'm trying to help here, its not about what boost you will produce when the boost solenoid is connected its about mechanical boost setting.

[dodge1979]

Getting the correct static mechanical setup is the wise words being issued above by a couple of peeps..dont rush..slow down and spend time on each issue in turn..importantly. .sloooooow doooowwn..dont say.. thatll do for now because 'for now' is often famed for becomming 'for ever'...its a false trap..

[sailorbob]

That espritfactfile article is full of rubbish. The best thing anyone can do with it is acknowledge there is an overboost mode and then ignore the rest of it.

[Stimpy]

Jim and dodge - I *do* actually understand what you mean - and I'm thankful for the concern.

 

"Jim and Dodge". Heh, sounds like a country and western duo (no offence)

[jimblob]

Ok cool so you now understand the only way to set up the waste gate without a dial gauge and air pump is to set its mechanical setting to .65 boost via your boost gauge which is obviously not the preferred method but without the correct tools is the best your gonna get.

[Qavion]

Thanks, Jim!

Having thought about this - if the wastgate fails in a way that it seizes in the 'no boost' position (flap closed) - or if you remove the waistgate altogether - presumably there would never be any pressure relief and could do some real damage.

I suspect that the ECU cleverness will prevent this though. Just a thought.

Steve, you had it right in the first part of your message, but you've mixed it up at the end.

No boost = flap open (rod extended)

Boost = flap closed (rod not extended, in preloaded position)

If your rod broke, and your flap was flapping in the breeze, there would be little or no boost. If you lockwired the flap closed, you might blow up the engine because of too much boost (if it wasn't for the ECU intervening to cut off fuel/ignition).

Mechanically, you set up the boost to .65. The ECU, however, can keep the flap closed to build up extra pressure in the turbo... until you reach around 1.0... by limiting the air going to your wastegate control capsule.

The picture in your manual is fairly generic. It doesn't show how the ECU controls the pressure going to wastegate control capsule. The picture just shows a pipe going straight from your inlet manifold to the wastegate control capsule. If you imagine cutting that pipe in half and connecting the cut ends to an electronically controlled air pressure regulator, it will give you some idea of how the ECU can control the capsule pressure.

The ECU controls the inflation of the wastegate control capsule using a solenoid operated air-pressure regulator. The solenoid will be somewhere in your boot, with wires going off to the ECU.

Thusly, the ECU controls boost in two ways: By capsule air control.. and, as a last resort, by shutting down the engine completely.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers

Ian.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Qavion

[Qavion]

P.S.

If you lockwired the flap closed, you might blow up the engine because of too much boost

I did once lockwire the flap closed when I was trying to faultfind a problem with my turbo, but kept my engine rpms low so as not to blow up the engine. Sometimes the flap can migrate sideways and not shut completely (low boost). This migration is sometimes hard to spot and you don't know if it's a flap problem or a controller problem, so you try to isolate various components during faultfinding.

[Stimpy]

Thanks, Jim!

Steve, you had it right in the first part of your message, but you've mixed it up at the end.

No boost = flap open (rod extended)

Boost = flap closed (rod not extended, in preloaded position)

If your rod broke, and your flap was flapping in the breeze, there would be little or no boost. If you lockwired the flap closed, you might blow up the engine because of too much boost (if it wasn't for the ECU intervening to cut off fuel/ignition).

Mechanically, you set up the boost to .65. The ECU, however, can keep the flap closed to build up extra pressure in the turbo... until you reach around 1.0... by limiting the air going to your wastegate control capsule.

The picture in your manual is fairly generic. It doesn't show how the ECU controls the pressure going to wastegate control capsule. The picture just shows a pipe going straight from your inlet manifold to the wastegate control capsule. If you imagine cutting that pipe in half and connecting the cut ends to an electronically controlled air pressure regulator, it will give you some idea of how the ECU can control the capsule pressure.

The ECU controls the inflation of the wastegate control capsule using a solenoid operated air-pressure regulator. The solenoid will be somewhere in your boot, with wires going off to the ECU.

Thusly, the ECU controls boost in two ways: By capsule air control.. and, as a last resort, by shutting down the engine completely.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers

Ian.

I very much appreciate this.  With all the other quotes and youtube it's been an education 

[Stimpy]

Thanks, Jim!

Steve, you had it right in the first part of your message, but you've mixed it up at the end.

No boost = flap open (rod extended)

Boost = flap closed (rod not extended, in preloaded position)

If your rod broke, and your flap was flapping in the breeze, there would be little or no boost. If you lockwired the flap closed, you might blow up the engine because of too much boost (if it wasn't for the ECU intervening to cut off fuel/ignition).

Mechanically, you set up the boost to .65. The ECU, however, can keep the flap closed to build up extra pressure in the turbo... until you reach around 1.0... by limiting the air going to your wastegate control capsule.

The picture in your manual is fairly generic. It doesn't show how the ECU controls the pressure going to wastegate control capsule. The picture just shows a pipe going straight from your inlet manifold to the wastegate control capsule. If you imagine cutting that pipe in half and connecting the cut ends to an electronically controlled air pressure regulator, it will give you some idea of how the ECU can control the capsule pressure.

The ECU controls the inflation of the wastegate control capsule using a solenoid operated air-pressure regulator. The solenoid will be somewhere in your boot, with wires going off to the ECU.

Thusly, the ECU controls boost in two ways: By capsule air control.. and, as a last resort, by shutting down the engine completely.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers

Ian.

Yep - makes sense - thanks for the extra info. Much appreciated

[jimblob]

I know I wrote how to do it in a jokey way   but that is basically how its done without correct tools. Remember to reset your ecu after you get the .65 boost stable its important. Then go for a drive get the car up to temp try your boost out see what you get .

[sailorbob]

.............if it wasn't for the ECU intervening to cut off fuel/ignition

I am not convinced the ecu does cut ignition when the boost limit is reached for a couple of reasons:

 

If the ignition module does not receive the timing signal from the ecu it will switch into the 'bypass' mode as a limp home failsafe.

 

Also, I cannot find any changes in the code to the spark operation when the boost limit is exceeded, only the primary and secondary fuel injector pulsewidths being set to zero to cut the fuel delivery.

Edited July 19, 2014 by sailorbob

[Stimpy]

I know I wrote how to do it in a jokey way but that is basically how its done without correct tools. Remember to reset your ecu after you get the .65 boost stable its important. Then go for a drive get the car up to temp try your boost out see what you get .

Hmm ok - I find this post VERY interesting because I can only get (mechanical) o.5 boost on each and every test drive.

I also drove it with the Ecu connection to the waist gate section disconnected and did not notice any difference. Worryingly I didn't get a check engine light as predicted. This gives me an annoying thought. When I test drove the car both the abs and check engine light came on. They said they would resolve that and sure enough when I eventually got the car the lights turned off. So I know that the abs is working (ahem!) however the check light is not illuminating. I get a sneaky suspicion that the light has been messed with - either by removal of light bulb or bypass of the turbo connection (I can't remember if the check engine light illuminates on key to ign (pre startup) and currently I'm writing this from the penn festival (loads of 80's bands and singers). I'm also in the process of burning my skin..

Anyway - driving the car with or without Ecu connection shows the same 0.5 bar (actually prob a bit over that - so perhaps nearer the quoted 0.6 bar)

I haven't done a hard reset so I will give that a go. Only thing is I'll have to redo all the bloody settings on the ice!!!

However - I shall give the reset a go and see what happens

Someone else recommended the hard reset but I confess I didn't do it. Now it's come up again I will def do it.

Doing test runs and adjusting the length of the bar is quite enjoyable - a bit like guiding the hoop over an electric twisted pole if you know what I mean only in this case not allowing the knuckles to glance the turbocharger! Expletives when carrying out the task is similar to the buzz on the game I mentioned! All good fun.

Incidentally - yes I realised I made a mistake on one of the recent posts (getting the last sentence wrong). All this education has left me with a very good knowledge about how it all works - with the Ecu reset being the final bit of the jigsaw. Knowing now - what I didn't know before - makes me think that - actually - the theory and the hardware is actually pretty simple. I'm more than happy to have learned something which - originally - I had no knowledge about so thanks to most of you here and thanks to youtube for giving a graphical account of the theory.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Stimpy